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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

WWYD? Disastrous sibling to stay situation

96 replies

DanglyNora · 29/11/2018 13:04

I've namechanged, though I realise if sibling sees this the shit will hit the fan anyway.

I have a sibling, I'll call them X/they. Until recently sibling was my sister but has "come out as non-binary". They also have multiple other diagnoses, some self-diagnosed, some not, including ASD (also recent) and was previously gay. This is relevant. I have tried to be supportive but I also feel that X "collects" diagnoses and has a huge agenda to seek an identity and be a member of special needs groups, if that makes sense. They are surrounded by other similar people who all talk a lot about their gender/SN issues on twitter and are very vocal and demanding. I don't want to sound bitchy, just trying to describe the situation. But full disclosure I am gender-critical and what X would call a TERF, but I've just avoided discussing this.

Thought my whole extended family is a dysfunctional wreck, I have mainly got on with X well, though not been super-close. X likes to visit my town for a particular event each year, and has stayed with us in the past, sometimes with spouse from whom X is now separated. They have been disorganised and messy, but not to a terrible extent.

This year I was away on holiday during said event and I asked X if they would like to stay at ours and cat-sit, they agreed. I paid towards transport as a thank you (X has v little money).

While we were away I had texts from X complaining that cat was being sick a lot, she is a sicky cat at times so I apologised but didn't think much of it.

We got back shortly after X left and were horrified to find an utter bombsite. Spilt used cat litter all along the hall, and also trailed outside, which I had to deal with immediately to avoid upsetting neighbours. Whole toilet and seat splattered with dried-on poo. Kitchen splatted with every kind of food mess. Bed X had used was full of old used plates, spilt food, tampons, suppositories, sharp cutlery and random items. Worst of all, the cat's dishes were encrusted with several days of food and it was very hot weather. She'd been eating from increasingly dirty dishes and X hadn't been cleaning/replacing them, so no wonder she was ill. Poor thing was traumatised.

I was very, very upset, especially as we'd just had an exhausting long journey (just me and kids, I'm a single mum) and I had to clean everything up. The kids were furious about the cat and said X could never stay again. X never mentioned anything, explained or apologised so it's not as if there was some particular explanation.

Well you know where this is heading. I was going to talk to X about it and chickened out and never did it. Now X wants to come and stay again, and I don't know what to do, how to approach it and what to say.

The problem is that X is very sensitive and has a victim-like mentality, and often uses their diagnoses to explain that they aren't capable of various things. But in fact they used to be able to cope, before all these diagnoses, and were never this bad - messy yes, but able to do basic housekeeping and have never left a toilet like that before.

I have always been like the "grown-up" among my siblings and feel like they act more like children around me, which I hate. If I address this I will be the oh-so-perfect big sister "telling X off" and it will just reinforce the dynamic even more. I also don't want to fall out with X at this time. Though I'm not an expert, I've had my own MH issues and I suspect X is depressed and doesn't need to be abandoned.

But my kids matter too. I could cope with X staying briefly if I was there, but they don't want X here at all.

I need to reply to X's email asking to stay, what would you say? (Btw email is by far the best way for us to talk, it won't be by phone as we both dislike it.)

OP posts:
WerewolfNumber1 · 30/11/2018 07:41

I’ve been thinking about this as I have somebody similar (although not as bad) in my life.

If you say anything she finds critical (which means anything less than enthusiastic “you go girl!” support), you get weeks of crying that her issues aren’t her fault, and I don’t understand her diagnosis and her needs, and I’m discriminating against her. Trying to “grey rock” leads to her saying I won’t even discuss it with her, won’t try to educate myself on her special needs because I’m a bigot etc etc.

It’s very wearing.

The only approach I’ve found helpful is:

  1. Enter into the whole “special snowflake” delusion in a way which acknowledges it’s hard but sets out expectations of normal behaviour. So for example “oh, i know it must be so hard for you to be on time given your X...that must make life so much more difficult, that it’s so hard to plan your time. I know you’d never want to be so rude as to leave people waiting.”

2 Ask questions about how they plan to handle the issue so that they can fulfil those expectations, so “What do you think would help? Maybe if we talked about what time you need to leave and worked out when you need to start getting ready together? Or do you have other ideas?”

  1. Make clear that you have issues and needs of your own, so “Now I know it’s hard for you to be on time, but I really can’t sit around waiting for you - sitting alone in a crowded coffee shop is very triggering for my anxiety. So I’ll wait for 5 minutes but then I’ll have to go.”

Does that make sense? It’s sort of buying into their whole delusion/sense of bizarre specialness but at least keeps the peace and maybe guides them nicely towards trying harder to do normal things.

KeiTeNgeNge · 30/11/2018 07:59

Clearly state why you aren’t prepared to have her stay at yours. Also state you are happy to see her if she’s in the area but she’s not staying at yours.

GladysKnight · 30/11/2018 08:05

Just to say: the relationship has been damaged by her behaviour when she abuse d your hospitality. That's on her. Don't take responsibility for what she did, and for the inevitable consequences. she (they?) did the damage last summer. If she wants to mend it she can try. It isn't even in your power to do so, so you have to stop pretending it is. Clear sign of codependency (in my admittedly untrained opinion)

Staringcoat · 30/11/2018 08:26

I think I would use the word "respect" a lot in my e-mail to her. She is presumably asking you to respect her binary choices and to respect her diagnoses, so it might be more effective if you answer in kind. "You did not treat my home with respect last time you were here". "You did not respect the needs of our cat" etc etc. "Me and the DC did not feel respected by the state you left things in".

I'm curious though. Playing devil's advocate, is it possible she was ill last time she stayed (bad period) and then was too embarrassed to address it or something because of difficulty reconciling menstruation and binary issues, maybe? I'm not excusing her behaviour for a minute btw, just wondering about the cause. The explanation could just as easily be that she couldn't be arsed to tidy up. One could (nearly) accept/try and understand that sort of behaviour from a 14 yr old but not from an adult. How old is she?

Staringcoat · 30/11/2018 08:28

What is her own house like? Does she live in squalor?

toolazytothinkofausername · 30/11/2018 08:28

I would book my sister 2 nights in a travelodge/premier inn. I'd rather spend the money than deal with the disgusting mess/mental stress.

WerewolfNumber1 · 30/11/2018 08:31

So in your actual situation - you can acknowledge that her special needs made it hard for her to keep your house tidy, but unfortunately given your own needs and your children’s needs, it doesn’t work for her to stay anymore.

FrancisCrawford · 30/11/2018 08:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TimeIhadaNameChange · 30/11/2018 09:24

I don't suppose you took any photos of the bombsite, did you? It's just that I suspect she'll go crying to all and sundry about how mean you are being by not letting her stay, and you may find it useful to have proof.

But definitely tell her she's not welcome, and why. It wouldn't be fair on any of you (except the poor, precious snowflake, that is).

SixButterflies · 30/11/2018 09:27

FOG?

I'm none the wiser after searching.

X sounds very dysfunctional and you sound like you're not (or trying not to be). Never the twain shall meet - or at least not with a positive healthy outcome. I'd say my piece and move on and away (mentally and emotionally and actually.)

WWYD? Disastrous sibling to stay situation
Feefeetrixabelle · 30/11/2018 09:31

Fear obligation guilt- FOG

SaltLamp · 30/11/2018 09:57

If she used her diagnoses as an excuse just agree with her. A hotel is perfect for someone who can't clean their own shit, room or crockery.

INeedNewShoes · 30/11/2018 10:12

In a way, the fact her behaviour was SO bad last time she stayed is helpful. You have concrete reasons that you can state without actually talking about characteristics which is where it becomes more personal.

I would stick with something like 'We would love to see you but we won't be able to have you stay. When you stayed in [insert month here] it was stressful for me to return to the house in the state it was in and we were very upset by the lack care for the cat.'

I'd leave it at that but if she argues I would then list everything you did in your OP such as the state of the kitchen and toilet.

DanglyNora · 30/11/2018 11:03

Thanks everyone. Yes FOG is Fear, Obligation and Guilt and something I am very familiar with with other family members. I feel controlled by the need not to upset people, even when they massively upset me. I have overcome it and been straight with people in my family, and cut contact where necessary. That's partly why I'm so annoyed to find myself in it again here.

To answer questions, X is younger than me, but not really young - approaching 40. As for their home, I haven't visited since X was living with their wife. At that time, yes it was a tip and full of clutter, but not actually covered-in-poo filthy. They were both extremely untidy and disorganised but basically clean enough. Now X has moved into a houseshare which I haven't visited.

(I should specify there wasn't an actual used tampon in the bed - there were used tampons in the bathroom but the ones in the bed were unused. Just part of a large assortment of stuff spilled in the bed. The more disgusting stuff in the bed was the used crockery and food.)

I'm having a bit of a stressful week for various reasons so not ready to email back yet, but I will and will be using suggestions from the thread.

OP posts:
AttilaTheMeerkat · 30/11/2018 11:21

Do use the suggested wordings from this thread to form a reply. Then block X. No more correspondence should be entered into after this e-mail because any further contact will give X an "in" to further beat you about the head with.

The fact that her previous residence was also a tip speaks much about her as well. This person used your hospitality and abused it in all manner of ways. You would never have tolerated any of this from a friend and X is no different. Its also not your task at all to pay for a hotel room for her either (to potentially trash). That money would be better spent on you, your DC and the cat.

Do not procrastinate further here; the longer you delay writing to X the worse you will feel. You are to some extent still controlled by some need not to upset people even when they do massive upset you.

WTFIsAGleepglorp · 30/11/2018 11:28

Are these self diagnoses? Actual medical diagnoses?

Has she been casting about the internet looking for 'experts'?

She sounds like a screaming nightmare, TBH.

Please email soon, or she'll take your silence as a "Yes, I'd love you to come!"

SixButterflies · 30/11/2018 12:17

Thanks for the definition.
I must look into that - it resonates with me!

Applebloom · 30/11/2018 13:35

Op your dcs boundaries are spot on and it's important to view this dysfunctional set up through fresh eyes : their love

I know only too well how hard it is to extract oneself from assumed roles
Always having to be the grown up of the adult sibling.
Walking on tiptoes to keep the status quo of not upsetting others while ignoring own upsets
Your ok relationship with X includes X being able to literally shit on your home life without consequences
Everything remains ok if you stuff your feelings down
X gets to have a relationship with you that would be utterly unacceptable with any other adult!
MH doesn't excuse leaving others to clean up your actual shit because if Xs mh was at this level of lack of self care then staying in your home wouldn't even be advisable ever.
If X simply lacks total awareness of their behavior then keeping it from them doesn't help either.

You can do this OP you can start knocking down these assumed roles and let this other grown up adult be responsible for sorting out their own shit. But they don't get to treat you or your & your dcs home as something that doesn't matter ever again !

Applebloom · 30/11/2018 13:36

*fresh eyes : their pov

DanglyNora · 01/12/2018 09:16

Applebloom yes you’re spot on with that list. It’s the story of my life with my relatives. And it is totally ridiculous when I see it spelt out like that.

OP posts:
Bloomcounty · 01/12/2018 09:43

Mental Health problems are not an excuse for being a jerk. Its not a get out of jail free card.

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