"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's November 2018, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
December 2017 - November 2018

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

[Notwhoyouthink35]

Do any of you guys get really emotional when someone does something nice/sweet for you? I think I’ve spent my whole life having to fight for everything and having simple things made difficult that I feel shocked when someone makes my life easier in even a small way.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

SingingLily

You are right; your parents do deserve each other and both are locked in a destructive dance of codependency. Your father has really acted as her hatchet man throughout your life and he cannot be at all relied upon either. He (like my late FIL) was both a bystander and a weak willed individual who doted on his wife whilst she looked at him with an expression akin to hate. They both get what they want out of their ultimately destructive relationship and his comment re his idolising her does not surprise me one bit. Its typical of such men.

You are likely not going to get through to this person. Their entire identity may be wrapped up in "helping" the narcissist and they are in just as much emotional danger as the narcissist if this pattern does not continue. They are probably enmeshed with the narcissist, which means interpersonal boundaries are so poor that they cannot tell where the narcissist begins and they end. They may get defend the narcissist, get angry, or simply deny everything (FIL denied everything). We often hear, "I'm doing the best I can!" or "It's not me, it's the narcissist!"

As for the ads take no notice. They are selling a fantasy PC based ideal really and its not akin to my life or in all likelihood many other people's for that matter. Its all done to make money and I am not surprised that everyone is welcome in Tescos, of course they are if they spend cash!. Even the people I know who have emotionally healthy families are run off their feet and also dislike this time of year.

Enjoy your no contact Christmas this year.






These are both narcissistic statements in and of themselves, spoken by people who don't really want to take responsibility for the things they are doing or change them. And you already know what that means. It means it's pointless to even bother.
No contact is still and always will be the best strategy for dealing with narcissists and with their enablers. Again, narcissism cannot exist in a vacuum. There are always enablers. When identified, they should be subject to the same rules as the narcissist. If that's no contact, then it is. It's sad that this can result in going no contact with people you love, but they are not protecting you and are in fact enabling the narcissist to abuse you and others, so it's up to you whether you think you deserve better or not.

[WillNeverLetYouBreakMe]

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply. I am on a therapy waiting list. It was for anxiety and now my whole existence is dawning upon me and I need it more urgently. Will see if I can get seen sooner.

It feels like a revelation that my childhood was not normal. I was made to believe that I had a great upbringing and any bad bits were of my own making. My lovely daddy passed away when I was young (hence still refer to him as daddy). He was amazing and loving and warm. I remember my mother also making his life a misery with constant criticisms. I still feel traumatised by his passing. He loved me and smiled lots.

I was not physically mistreated by my mother. I wasn’t the cinderella of the family either. My mother also helped me financially which makes me feel bad too. I just wish she was a warm loving mum. I know she loves me, she just has very unfunny way of showing it.

NotWhoYouThink35, I too feel overwhelmed and a bit awkward when someone pays me a compliment. I am not very good at receiving them and I am also quick to criticize - a trait I have that I do not like.

[NK1cf53daaX127805d4fd5]

Notwho - I've been told I was selfish and ungrateful since I was old enough to remember

[NK1cf53daaX127805d4fd5]

Attila - the lacking in empathy is something I find really hard to deal with. In one way she helps out so many people but if it doesn't suit her the empathy is non existent

[SingingLily]

Thank you, Attila, thank you! You are so right but I think I needed to hear that. After the initial period of feeling so low and upset, I'd started to feel nothing at all and it worried me. I couldn't work out whether it was because I'd become so desensitised over the years that I felt nothing or whether I was more like M than I could bear to admit. So the sudden wave of anger was unexpected and kind of knocked me sideways.

Calmer now. Still angry, but at least I feel something again, so that's got to be healthy.

M is what she is and she won't change. F is the same. I realise that. However, I've changed and I'm not going back.

I hope, Attila, that you too enjoy your Christmas.

[Notwhoyouthink35]

My siblings all think we had a fantastic childhood with a loving mother (they were treated differently I suppose). I do think she loved us and I don’t think she necessarily means to do the stuff she has done.

All my siblings think I am the difficult one too. One (the golden child) doesn’t talk to me, for the horrible way I have allegedly treated Mother. Ironically she caused the main fall out between us, by getting me to fire her bullets. Then she went apologising for what I had said, when she told me to say it!!

[NoraButty]

Thanks Spare and Babdoc Thank you for your advice. I've thought long and hard and I think i'll just try and stick to 'I don't want to' and see how that goes. I do feel like I owe an explanation but I suspect that might be because of my conditioning. My mum has always needed/wanted to know all my thought processes, I now have a habit of over explaining myself. If i'm going to stop doing that I may as well jump in and start with the end of level boss.

I don't need to worry about any of my family getting involved, i've not seen any of them for hmmm maybe 5 years, that was for a funeral, and before that it'll have been another 5 years. We've not fallen out but everything goes through my mum so none of us are close. We don't know each other's phone numbers or have each others emails or anything.

I mentioned to my OH that I was scared of them causing a scene and he thinks nah, surely if you say you're not wanting to see someone they won't try and make you. I didn't try and explain, I actually found it comforting that if they do cause a scene that he's the one with the 'what's normal' compass in the right place to be able to judge if they're being reasonable or completely batshit. I don't trust myself to be able to do that.

Attila I love your take on Christmas ads, so true.

NK1cf53daaX127805d4fd5 I'm not sure if you can relate, my mum shows no empathy at all to me, or to most other people. She does show some, or appears to have done anyway, to a few people over the years that she seems to feel sorry for. But, what seems to happen is gets over-involved, listens to their woes, integrates herself into their life, tells them what to do and then after X amount of time she starts bitching about them behind their backs and eventually washes her hands of them, she shuts off, it's like she's as cold as ice. She either bemoans that they never listened to her 'advice' or that they only talked about themselves and never asked how she was or complimented her.

I often wondered if she showed 'empathy' to these people because she considered them pitiful or beneath her, as that's how her 'caring' always came across. Whatever her reasons, it was never unconditional, she always always always falls out with people and the reason is always that she doesn't get the attention that she feels she is owed/deserves.

[Milliy]

Naps As you have moved away can you tell your eldest that they live far away. This may do for now.
You are doing this to protect your children from having the same experience you did. If she didnt protect you from sexual abuse then why would you want her having anything to do with your children. There is nothing wrong with going no contact especially if it helps you . Feeling anxious and suffering negative mental health around her is bad for you. I know its hard but you have to look after yourself and your children and if she is toxic, which she is, then dont feel bad or guilty.

[Pickledpickles]

Yesterday mum told me that my nephew and nieces don't acknowledge cards from me because I don't talk to my sister. When asked about it I said my sister was a bitch so mum says the same could be said about me and that we both have our faults. This is the sister who is 15 years older than me, blamed me for my mums heart attack many years ago, a car crash when I was a child and at school when the accident happened and who I was told would have a miscarriage because of my behaviour. I was a severely depressed and anxious child shouldering my parents marital problems and being told to how my dad's alcoholism. I wasn't bad or naughty. I was lost and am probably on the spectrum. The same sister then told me my much wanted but unplanned unborn baby was a mistake and that if I changed I'd be welcomed back into the family. This was what both she and my brother wanted. I declined. I've not spoken to them since except when necessary. My other sibling has not met my ds. He doesn't need people like that in his life. His own dad didn't want him and has only seen him once in nearly 4 years.

I realised a while back that my history of really relationships with men is down to the fact I was always told no one would ever want me as I am and that I'd be lucky to find someone to tolerate me. So I've hopped from abusive relationship to abusive relationship. Now that I've had that epiphany I've decided to stay single. I can't trust my judgement. I have very few friends as tend to choose toxic ones so I've trimmed my social circle right down as a protective measure.

Families really fuck you up don't they.

[JohnCRaven]

I'm struggling with my family and Christmas and I'd really appreciate some perspective from people who've been there.

I'm the selfish one apparently. It was certainly the case when I was a child/teenager because I did always want things my own way. I learnt the error of my ways when I met DH 14 years ago but their version of me hasn't been updated. I was told I was selfish for suggesting we (DH + 2DCs under 5) stay Boxing Day night at my parents as well as Christmas Eve and Christmas Day (we live 1 hr 15 minutes away siblings are within 20 mins). Apparently I was monopolising my parents time. But I asked my mum if they had any plans and she said no. I asked her if she'd like us to stay an extra night and she said yes. Then I hear on the WhatsApp grapevine that I'm selfish taking up all her time over Christmas.

Except Christmas Eve we're all at my DSis for an afternoon party so the whole family is together (I have 3 siblings with 8 kids) so am I monopolising that night? And Christmas Day all siblings have refused to visit my DPs new house on Christmas Day because they 'dared' to sell the family home a few years ago so to my siblings Christmas is dead if it's not in the house we grew up in. So I go every other year (DHs DPs other year) and they go to a sibling the other year. Boxing Day they do what they like but as they said they had no plans I thought spending more time with my DCs would be nice. Apparently that's 'monopolising' their time.

Fast forward to this year. Unexpectedly DH's DP's split up this year. FIL is with OW and MIL would be due to spend it with us. They've sold their family home so it would be at her pokey rental flat or our cramped house. Not much of a Christmas but we'll make the best of it.

FIL feeling very guilty has paid for DH, DCs, me and MIL to go to Eurodisney between Christmas and New year. Much better Christmas.

Apparently I'm now selfish for not spending time with my DPs over Christmas!! I've offered to go for the night and squeeze in around their plans and it's begrudgingly accepted but it's been made clear we need to clear off the next day.

I literally can't do right for doing wrong. I've spent the year supporting my MIL through an unexpectedly shit time. But I'm 'neglecting' my DM despite having 0 time to myself. I've cut back on my hours, volunteering and other stuff to make more time for DH, DCs and MIL and still reducing my commitments to find spare time for DM.

DM didn't have a good year with a minor heart attack which I dropped everything for and have regularly asked after her health. But as scapegoat child nothing I do is good enough and my siblings see her more so I'm black sheep as well!

My siblings had a virtual go at me (virtual as it was via WhatsApp) about some of my life choices (which are absolutely none of their business and don't affect them in the slightest) which my DM refused to stick up for me about. All I wanted her to say was 'leave her alone her choices don't affect you' but she wouldn't. DF goes along with everything for an easy life but privately said it was out of order and my choices are nobody's business but mine.

I'm dreading the Christmas Eve event because essentially I'm going to be ripped apart for everything this year. DCs are looking forwards to seeing their cousins and not going would be a severing for ever. It wouldn't be forgiven across the board.

I want to stop caring what they think.
I want to have some witty retorts when they criticise my life.
I want to be happy with my choices irregardless of whether they approve or not.

I could do with your perspective on how to make those possible. Thank you

[toomuchtooold]

JohnCRaven I'm sure Captain Awkward has some good scripts for awkward family get togethers, I'll try to dig one out tomorrow.
It's hard - I get that you don't want to care but you'll feel what you feel, and being upset that your family are unkind is perfectly normal. We all have the sorts of families where you feel like meeting them is more like a test of strength than a happy get together.
Regarding the Christmas arrangements, I wonder if you could maybe see the humour in the fact that you probably made your mother very happy by giving her something to complain about? As the scapegoat your job is to be in the wrong, if you're doing everything they want, they'll get fed up, as they'll have nothing to blame their own negative feelings on...

How do you want things to be next year? It sounds like you have spent a lot of time and effort on the people around you this year - maybe the new year would be a good time to refocus and think, who deserves your care next year?

[JohnCRaven]

maybe see the humour in the fact that you probably made your mother very happy by giving her something to complain about?

Oh you are wonderful! You're absolutely right! I joke that my mum is never so happy as when she's moaning. I will indeed comfort myself with that.

I agree with refocusing. DC goes to school next year so want to spend quality time before then.

[pineappleplanner]

Hello all I thought I’d come in and wave, reading through this thread and others has certainly made me feel I should.

I’ve recently cut my mother off about two months ago. I have had one call since from her which I ignored and a couple of incidents of her trying to turn up at places she’ll know I’ll be but not to see me to see my dd.
I’m trying to be strong as my dad is very ill but has enabled my mother to the extent that I cannot continue to pretend I have any desire to see either of them anymore. My dad will definitely tell the whole family how disgusted he is with me for not caring and my m will make sure the whole family turn against me saying I’m an awful dd after all they’ve done for me, a line that seems to come about every time the threat of me finally doing anything about the way they treat me occurs.

Since cutting my m off I feel better tbh. Every time I tried to explain to other family members it’s not me they’d say things like oh but when you were a child blah blah blah. I’m in my 30’s it’s no longer relevant aunty maud. My m also tells everyone in my family of my most recent ‘awfulness’ to continually update them with me being the sole cause for anything bad in the family. If I ever pulled my m up on any of it she had excuse after excuse. I asked her why she’s not bought me a birthday present in the last 7 years but literally buys every Tom Dick and Harry one and goes all out for my siblings, she told me she doesn’t know me well enough to know what to get me so it’s better to not get anything. She goes nc with me a week before birthday/Mother’s Day/Christmas to avoid admitting they’ve all left me out of any celebrations for it. I normally find out via fb or people telling me.

She paints herself in public as a ‘lovely lady’ very few people believe me when I say how she really is. Indeed my own best friend is struggling to believe me and that hurts so much.

My m had started to brainwash my young dd against me and that’s led me to walk away. I’m so tired of trying to build a non existent relationship the one I envy others who have it. The loving mother. I am now going to focus on coming to terms with this and raise my dd to know I am there for her and love my family.

[Hisaishi]

Hello, just checking in. Hope everyone is doing ok.

I'm thinking about starting therapy again after Christmas, it's quite hard as I'm not in the UK so it's really expensive (150 pounds for the cheapest one I could find, wtf!) but I found someone who does online for a bit less so I might go with her.

I've been feeling extremely low the past couple of weeks. I don't know why, run up to Christmas maybe, or something else, I don't know.

I've actually made some progress the last few days - played piano, cooked decent food every night, had people round for dinner, did some training with my dog - but I feel constantly like everything might fall apart at any moment.

I've been trying hard to keep in touch with old friends as well as making new ones (we've been abroad for 10 years, staying at least another 5), but honestly...it's so hard. I reach out to people and then retreat. I'm so scared of them rejecting me that I reject them first.

I got an email from my mum today and even though it's really innocuous and there's nothing bad in there, it still touched a nerve and made me feel all jittery and off.

Recovering from a bad childhood is so difficult.

[Milliy]

Pineapple feeling as though your Mother is trying to play you off against your daughter is a horrible feeling. You also don't want her to grow up subjected to the same emotional abuse you have suffered. It's often when when we have our own children that we become more aware of our parents behaviours. With regard to you friend, I find it's best to not discuss my family with other people. They don't know how your parents are with you. They aren't there and therefor only see the public version that your parents want the world to see.

[Milliy]

Hisaishi bad childhoods leave a horrible legacy. I get you feeling disturbed by any email from your Mother. I'm the same. What about Skyping therapy with someone in UK off the BACP website? May be cheaper if it works.

[pineappleplanner]

Thanks @Milliy you’re right re my friend.My m has played too many games with me. I think after I had my dd I realised I was being bullied and my m wasn’t the person who everyone else seemed to be able to go to for help and comfort etc. I could never treat my dd the way I am treated by my m.

[Milliy]

Pianapple My Mother was like this. Always being lovely and helpful with my friends but treating me like I wasn't important. Friends said how lovely she was and how lucky I was. This confused me growing up and I thought it was me who was bad and I tried harder to be the daughter she would approve of. Didn't work. I'm an only child and grew up with no family other than them.

[Hisaishi]

Milliy Yes, I'm also thinking about doing that. As I live in Asia, I do also think it might help to have someone who knows the culture here because definitely some stuff here contributes to my feeling of not being well these days. Also, the time difference is awful. But yes, someone in the UK may also work better. I may give several people a go.

My mother was the same as yours. My friends often say how lovely my mum is, it's really annoying (especially as several of them willingly spend LOADS of time with their parents.)

[Milliy]

Hisaishi

[toomuchtooold]

Hisaishi I did therapy via Skype with a UK based therapist - happy to give you her details if you want, just PM me. Appreciate what you mean about wanting someone who understands the culture you live in though - I also live abroad, and what I find particularly hard is that I get quite anxious when I can't immediately read someone's emotions or if a social interaction doesn't go 100% right, and of course that happens the whole time when you're outside your home culture.

[avocadoincident]

I'm new to posting on this thread but have lurked for a while wanting to get involved. Is there anyone on here who's mother is alone. I've had 6 years of NC but we are a small family, I'm an only child and my mum is many times divorced and she also doesn't speak to any of her fMily, in fact

[avocadoincident]

(Posted too soon)

So anyway, I was saying she doesn't speak to any of her family and was NC with her own mother.

I can echo the other posters here saying it's worse with the run up to Christmas as the guilt of knowing she's alone heightens all the other emotions.

Whilst I'm here I may as well get it all out,since going NC, I've got married and had a second baby which she knows nothing about and the stress of that can be unbearable. We live about an hour away from each other so bumping into her isn't a massive concern but is possible if we both happened to be in our nearest shopping town.

My first child is now an adult and has some contact with my mum,so she's in an awful position of not necessarily lying about the baby but by not mentioning her new sibling, the stress on her is awful too

[Milliy]

Avocado my Mother is alone and recently widowed. She lives on another continent. Yes I feel the "guilts" and it's hard. I'm very minimal contact. Your situation is not easy is it. An hour away is not a lot. It must be hard on your eldest, being the keeper of secrets. Does this cause trouble between you and your child? Can I ask why you are no contact with your Mother?