I genuinely didn't think attitudes like this still existed

[Liverpool23]

Hello everyone,
I hugely need some wise advice
My fiance and I have been together 14 months. We were friends for 5 years before then. He proposed last week which I am over the moon about
My family have met him 2 to 3 times. My family live 250/300 miles away so the only reason for them not seeing him lots is the distance.
I am the youngest of 6 children and we were all raised in a strict Christian household.
My fiance is also from a strict Christian upbringing and from a different country. He did, however have a ONS 9 1/2 years ago (ie before I knew him) and now has a 9 year old son. We see this child once a week and he pays maintenance. I.e - he made the most out of a bad situation, he stepped up and is a Dad to his son

When we announced our engagement my family completely flipped out. One of my siblings has completely been so kind - congratulations etc but it could be because she has just had triplets (so obviously focused on my amazing nephews and niece)
My family wrote my fiance a letter which was (in my eyes uncalled for)
I essence this letter says things like:

Your fiance is only after a British passport (no, he has permanent residency)
Your fiance will not be able to financially support you as a wife (he has a full time job and what is this, the 1950's? I work full time too)
He will just get you pregnant and leave (I understand why they are concerned about this but the second he knew about his son he has done the right thing by him despite the son's mum saying he is nothing but a sperm donor - but thankfully still lets them see each other)
Basically a whole lot of hurtful things. They are all coming from the right place, I know my family love me fiercely however

It makes me feel like my family think I must be stupid. My fiance talk and discuss any issues like a ''normal'' couple. He has been in this country for over 20 years. His family have welcomed me with open arms
It also makes me feel like they don't trust me to choose a good husband for myself
My fiance is beyond hurt by their remarks. He has sobbed the past 3 nights saying that he loves me and just wants to spend the rest of our joint lives together and doesn't understand this (perceived) rejection

It is not rejection from my family - they just love me a whole ton and they have gone into over protective mode
By the way I am 29, not a little kid so although I appreciate they care so much I love this man and can't wait to be his wife.

My fiance and I have also had times where there has been racial abuse thrown at us once or twice (mixed race couple) and it just makes me so sad that in 2018 these attitudes still exist. It is as if my family do not see him as a person but my fiance as a person from xyz country so he must be like this and that iswim?
I hurts me so much that my family have hurt my fiance so much. I can only think, well we will have to prove everyone wrong and just stick together and they will see given time but part of me so SO angry that they are judging him in this way.
All my friends in the city that my fiance and I live in have been nothing but supportive. Sorry for long post, I appreciate any advice. Thank you

What both Spaghetti and Vaseline wrote here.

My mum wittered on to my dad about her fear of me getting divorced. Goodness alone knows what was going on in her head. That was all on her; it was not my problem nor was it my fiancé's. She never chose to directly discuss it with me and that is cowardly in my view.

Although it was many years ago now I have not forgotten it and it changed further how I feel about my parents. There were indications before from mum in particular which made me think hmmm too.

@Spaghettijumper - One of my sisters now lives in New Zealand and I have literally just sent her a voice message over whatsapp saying the same thing! Why automatically think badly of someone just because they don't know them. I would have thought at best they would be neutral towards him.
And yes, I absolutely want to protect my Fiance from this fall out.

I'd be trying to get to the bottom of why your parents have felt it appropriate to be so rude and invasive before letting my dad speak to my fiance.

They need to be pulled up on it and recognise their behavior is not okay first otherwise God knows what they'll say to your poor fiance during the phone call.

If they don't see anything wrong with what's happened then I'd be avoiding contact until they've reflected a bit longer!

My best friend got married at 18 yo to a man from another country - somewhere like France where national colouring is a tiny bit darker, but not really any different than UK (he's not from France, but think similar). Her parents were beside themselves, talked about them having brown babies and not wanting them; it was shocking.

First, that happened over 40 years ago and they're still happily married.

Second, at my friend's sister's wedding, some 15 years after her wedding, their dad started his speech by saying how proud he was of my bf's dh, how lucky they had been, how horrible they had been to him at first and what a big mistake that had been, how sorry he was, and then raised a toast to welcome him to the family many years overdue. It was one of the most moving wedding speeches I have ever heard. In fact, it's brought tears to my eyes just thinking about it.

Obviously, marry him in spite of family. If, like my friend's family they're at least polite to him then they'll get round to loving him. It didn't take 15 years for them to realise what a good bloke he was, it was just that was when the opportunity to make a very public apology happened. My mate's dh and her dad, in particular, got along very well indeed really quite quickly.

@AttilaTheMeerkat - If I have understood you rightly, you have hinted at your mum's reaction was something to do with her own issues and fears?

I think all of this is, in part due to my mum and dad's own fears and issues spilling out onto me. Mostly the fear of the unknown perhaps? Also they come from 2 very different backgrounds (financially) and they apparently struggled with this early on in their relationship so maybe they just don't want that for me
However I feel like regardless of who you marry you are going to both have different views on a great many things?

And if it was really about getting to know your partner, your dad should have made the effort to do that before acting so awfully in the first place!

This is a genuine question: Do you in any way feel that they have a point or are in any way right about your fiance? Is what they're saying ringing any alarm bells for you?

@Jux - Here's to hoping my parents will eventually realize he is a good person - very positive story, thank you

@Spaghettijumper - Every single issue/question my parents have raised - I have already discussed with my fiance. I have seen his application for British Citizenship, he has done an English test etc. I have seen his permanent residency stamp/page in his passport
I have gone out for coffee with my stepsons mum to get to know each other better (and there were no surprises there)
His mum lives with my fiance's sister. A lot of my parents fears are the what if scenarios that no one can predict like what if his sister dies and then his mum would have to come and live with you. Well yes but (God forbid) I could drop down dead tomorrow too!

His mum lives with my fiance's sister - That's not great English but I can't edit it, sorry!

I asked because there's a note of uncertainty in what you're saying. I don't know if that's because you have understandable nerves about getting married, because your parents are getting in your head, or because you have some genuine concerns about your relationship that you're not addressing. Sometimes when your partner is attacked you can end up defending them so much that you overlook any legitimate worries that you have. They may be small and easy to work out, but my one caution is not to let your parents unfounded concerns distract you from building a strong foundation with your fiance. You don't have to pander to their nonsensical worries and your fiance certainly shouldn't have to deal with them.

Do you ladies really think my Fiance and Dad should talk on the phone?

No, no and thrice no. Frankly, in your position my parents would never hear from me or my partner again. What they have done is unconscionable and unforgivable. If there is ever to be any conversation between your father and fiance it should start with you father crawling on his knees and begging forgiveness for being a sexist, racist piece of shit.

what if scenarios that no one can predict like what if his sister dies and then his mum would have to come and live with you

But that’s fairly ordinary family stuff? that could effect any couple with living parents.

Both my DM and MIL had elderly parents or PIiLs living with them at various times.

I fully expect that in the future I’ll have at least one parent with us as DH and I are the only ones on either side able to care for our parents.

Presumably your parents would hope that one of their children would take them in if necessary if they were elderly or ill?

And no, I don’t think after that letter I’d give my Dad opportunity to further insult and upset my fiancé.

fancy writing it in a letter if they had concerns they could have at least spoken face to face.

I’m sorry but you’re deluded if you think your family love you as anything other than a possession they still get to call the shots for.

@Spaghettijumper - That is a very insightful response, thank you. I remained good friends with him for 5 years to get to know him fully before stepping into a relationship with him so I don't have any doubts really, anything that comes to mind now, I just ask him outright as if we have differing views on anything it's more important to me (us) to be honest with each other now as we are building a life together. He always respects this.
I think my uncertainty comes more from not wanting to upset my parents. I know that sounds ridiculous but this is the first time they have really kicked up a fuss about anything I've done (perhaps because I have always done what they wanted)

@TooTrueToBeGood - I think how you described my dad were a little harsh(!)
However

My parents sacrificed a lot so I could attend a private school from Year 8 to year 11 and I did ask him yesterday - why spend all that money on private education if you overall aim for my life was for a man to support me!? He couldn't answer

Ok but he isn’t really doing what a father should (albeit through no fault of his own). If your fantasy it are unaware of the mother’s restrictions they may think that he is a bad father (hence the comments about him getting you pregnant iyswim). It’s good (a quite frankly not surprising) that you don’t see his child as an issue-why would you? He’s barely a part of your life. But your family may have jumped to unsavoury conclusions about your fiancé if you haven’t explained to them why he is such a small part of him s child’s life.

I think my uncertainty comes more from not wanting to upset my parents. I know that sounds ridiculous but this is the first time they have really kicked up a fuss about anything I've done (perhaps because I have always done what they wanted)

That makes sense. If it's any consolation I think it's very very common to get to a point where you start to question your parents - for most people it happens in their late 20s/early 30s. Something happens - you meet someone, you get a new job, someone dies, you have a baby - and it suddenly makes you think a bit differently about life and you start to think about whether what you were taught growing up is right for you any more. It's a difficult process for a lot of people but I think it's an essential part of maturing - becoming your own person rather than just someone who pleases others. It's normal to find fault with your parents and to start to reject some of what they think but the difficult thing is that sometimes it becomes clear that your parents aren't the people you thought they were and that they're actually out to harm rather than help you. That's really really tough.

I actually wonder too if you’re not sure about marrying your fiancé. If you were sure, you wouldn’t give your parents’ frankly inappropriately aired views a second though, you’d know that you were marrying the right man and be confident that your parents and family are acting terribly.

If you are completely sure about your fiancé then if you’re giving your family’s awful views this much headspace, if I was engaged to you I’d be having second thoughts about going ahead with a wedding as I don’t think someone who places this much importance on their family’s opinion is necessarily mature enough to be getting married at all.

You’re a grown woman, if you can’t see that your decision to marry is yours alone and assert yourself with your family (and stick up for your relationship/fiancé when they say the disgusting things they are about him, which makes them sound very racist) maybe it’s worth delaying the wedding for a few years.

@Racecardriver - Okay I see where you are coming from. I suppose the rebellious side of me is thinking why should I have to explain that situation with my parents but I should perhaps do just that.
The boys mum is definitely not a bad person, she has just been raised by generation upon generation of strong single women (her dad never bothered with her) so seems genuinely confused as to why my fiance wants to be so involved.
Whereas yes, from my background my fiance could be doing more but that is the situation and everyone (who matters) seems to be happy with it

That makes sense. If it's any consolation I think it's very very common to get to a point where you start to question your parents - for most people it happens in their late 20s/early 30s. Something happens - you meet someone, you get a new job, someone dies, you have a baby - and it suddenly makes you think a bit differently about life and you start to think about whether what you were taught growing up is right for you any more. It's a difficult process for a lot of people but I think it's an essential part of maturing - becoming your own person rather than just someone who pleases others. It's normal to find fault with your parents and to start to reject some of what they think but the difficult thing is that sometimes it becomes clear that your parents aren't the people you thought they were and that they're actually out to harm rather than help you. That's really really tough

To use a classic MN phrase ''This with bells on'' You have just hit the nail on the head.

@SlipperyNettle - I see what you are saying but I think I am just understanding that marriage is such a huge undertaking and that it is a decision not to be taken lightly

If you were sure, you wouldn’t give your parents’ frankly inappropriately aired views a second though,

I don’t think this is true. Most people who get in well with their parents would find it distressing that they disapproved of their fiancé.

The OP’s behaviour is fairly normal. Her parent’s behaviour is reprehensible.

Liverpool

re your comment;-
"@AttilaTheMeerkat - If I have understood you rightly, you have hinted at your mum's reaction was something to do with her own issues and fears?"

oh yes, absolutely.

you can end up defending them so much that you overlook any legitimate worries from spaghetti as well as brought up by a couple of other posters.

Legitimate worries being:
He is paying maintenance for his child. Don’t get me wrong on this; it is of course a great thing that he pays it. But. How are you going to feel about it when you have your own child and a considerable chunk of his pay is going out the door? It will decrease the circumstances for any children you go on to have...right from the very start.

The racism, unfortunately, won’t just be coming from your family of origin. Employment could also be affected, friendships, professional connections etc. (even church membership) may all have an underlying attitude to avoid you or choose another person for whatever superficial reason. It is 2018 and things are so much better than even 20 years ago, but imho, there is still a strong possibility that you will still run into it. (Disclosure- I am in the US)

Please don’t paint yourself into a box to “prove it” to your family of origin by making oaths to never leave this guy. You do not know how things are going to develop. You can not predict the future.

I also agree with pps that you have to choose between him and your family. It is unfortunate but your family of origin have set this up. If you are to marry, be “all in” with him. That is cutting the apron strings permanently. You already have done that in a physical sense from moving out young and not relying on them financially.

Now is the time to cut the emotional ties as well.

Have zero expectations from them, including anything revolving around any children you may have. It will hurt to see your parents/some siblings dote on your nieces and nephews while having nothing to do with your children. Emotionally disconnect.