Was this abuse, is this normal, did i cause it? Totally lost.

[lizzedays]

Hi. I've posted a few times recently as i have been struggling with some stuff. i am getting better slightly and appreciate the mumsnet support - thank you.

ive been thinking about my past relationship as i said something to a girlfriend yesterday completely in passing and her reaction was that my partner was controlling. i keep going over it all and just wanted some objective views on it. i know it isnt good to constantly go over stuff like this, but i am feeling really conflicted about it all. these are some examples of what went on:

• on the beach and he asks if i am going to take my bikini top off. i say no. he says other people have (one other had). i said i felt uncomfortable. he said go on. i said no and tried to go back to reading my book. he stopped talking and seemed to be in a mood, although he didnt say anything. an hour later he suggests we go in the sea. he asks me to take my top off in the sea and gets annoyed when i say i dont want to. i then give in.

• we go to the beach for the day and he asks why i havent packed my make up because we were stopping at a nice bar on the way back. i said i didnt feel like wearing make up on the beach or taking it with me in the heat. he said "dont you want to look nice in the bar?" I then asked if he was suggesting i didnt look ok without make up. he immediately reared up and said i was sensitive, dramatic and causing an argument and that he was "only trying to help." i then got upset at his reaction and he says "here come the waterworks."

• he offered to pay for a fake tan and wax for me. i said i didnt want a fake tan and would go for a wax but didnt want it all off. he then said most women would and he would like that. i said do you not like me as i am and as above, he then calls me sensitive and a drama queen looking for an argument. i try to explain that i just feel like he doesnt think i am good enough, he then calls me insecure and says he doesnt care what i do or whether i have a wax, and that he is just telling me his preference. this happened on repeated occasions.

• asked me why i dont have a specific type of bag that "most girls have and like." i had no idea what he was talking about and that seemed to make him see me as someone who wasnt as womanly as he wanted. (im really girlie and into handbags but was quite happy with the one i had!).

• would pressure me into not using condoms because it felt better. i understood he felt this way and he would sometimes use condoms but always made a point that it wasnt as good with them as without. i know that is a man thing and he was right about the feeling but he always made a big deal out of it.

• if we ever argued he would suddenly give me silent treatment and act like i didnt exist, quite literally. i could be crying in front of him and he would say i was pathetic and not tell me why he wasn't speaking. this could sometimes happen out of the blue if he was upset with something at work etc.

• when we were away once, we had a drink then walked past a hat shop. he told me i looked great in a hat. the following night we walked past another similar shop and i went in and was trying them on, he said "come on let's go, you look shit in a hat." this was said in a joking tone, and when i said that's not very nice, did you mean that, he said ffs of course i didnt, i told you yesterday you looked great in one. maybe thats me being sensitive.

• i had a leak in my house and i was worried about what had happened to the flooring. he said he was sick of talking about it and that if he deems something not important/not an issue then he doesnt engage with someone about the issue. i said what if its something im worried about though - he said if he thinks it is nothing then he cant be arsed and that was just how he was. he seemed unhappy generally that day so maybe he didnt mean that and was just having a bad day.

• never apologised for anything ever. used to say his mum never apologised to his dad, this was apparently something to be proud of.

in the end i had so much resentment because if i ever questioned him on things he had said, he would instantly call me insecure, a drama queen and sensitive and tell me i was causing an argument. i definitely did get upset now and then, and looking back, if i had said nothing and just let these things go then we wouldnt have argued about such things. that is just a fact. and it makes me wonder if i do have issues where i am sensitive and a drama queen. there were times when i definitely did question him and how he felt, based on the little criticisms he made (at least i felt like he was being critical, and maybe he wasnt at all). i feel so confused by it all.

add to all of it, he did some lovely things. bought me things and was generous, could be comforting at times if he wanted to be. it makes me think it was therefore down to me. if i hadnt reacted to anything and just taken his comments as him trying to help, then we wouldnt have argued.

head is in a spin. need some brutal, honest advice so i know where i am going wrong in future.

Why not OP?

He was probably questioning what she had said to him. Doesn't mean he took it seriously or decided it was him with the issue.

i thought maybe the fact he questioned it meant he had some self awareness. im not sure. can you still be nasty and abusive without being a narcissist?

Not all nasty people are narcissists. He sounds more like a misogynist than a narcissist

You can absolutely be nasty and abusive without being a complete narcissist.

The lack of empathy your ex shows is symptomatic of narcissism though. The way he didn't want to talk about your floorboards when you had a leak even though it distressed you. The way he tried to make you do things you were uncomfortable with so what he wanted was deemed to be more important than your feelings.

You sound like you're not over this by a long stretch. It's all completely normal to feel that way for some time, maybe even years. When did you split up?

a few months back. just started thinking it over recently.

Hope you don't mind me saying so but I also see you're on another thread about dating, and the moment anyone pushes for a second date you go off them. I would say you need time to heal from this. Dating can be fun but it seems to me like you're afraid (rightly so) of anything more than causal dating.

Maybe take some time out to fully heal. You're still young, you have plenty of time sorry don't mean to sound patronising at all. I just know that if you were my friend, I'd want you to have sky-high confidence in yourself so if any other guys come along to assert themselves you'd tell them F off and give them a wide berth

OP, please please stop justifying his behaviour. As other pp, I've been there - my ex put me in practically the same situations yours put you in and I kept thinking "he just needs to trust me more" "I need to be understanding and work on this" etc. The worst for me was when I had done something "offensive" to him but I wouldn't know what it was, he would just give me the silent treatment and look at me with disgust, a bit like you described. Those behaviours lead to name calling, forcing sex and physically pushing me when drunk. Believe those are next steps in many occasions.
Do not blame yourself and enjoy life without that bastard. X

thank you so much for your kindness xx

I was nearly hyperventilating just reading your first post. He is awful! It's as though he's set out to undermine you and make you feel like you're going mad.

The difference between a Narcissistic and an ‘abusive man’ is this. An ‘abusive man’ generally is only abusive to his partners and is often perceived as ‘normal’ by everyone else in his life. He will often only abuse his partner behind close doors. And I include emotional abuse in this.
A Narcissist is abusive to everyone in their life. Their mother, their employer/employees, their children.
In the Rom Com movies you’re encouraged to find a partner who you have chemistry with, who is gorgeous, who you have banter with, who woos you and buys you gifts. This is actually bullshit and the worst way to choose a partner. When you meet someone you should get to know them and think ‘Do I like him?’ Not ‘Does he like me?’. Look for ‘Red Flags’ (search these on mumsnet). Listen to how he talks about women in general. Listen to how he refers to his ex partners. Does he have respect for women?
If his ex partners thought he was abusive or a narcissist listen to that.
Does he respect your boundaries? If you say no or that you don’t like something does he say ‘ok’ and act accordingly or does he push you, make you change your mind, or do it anyway.
How does he treat people in call centres on the phone? Or waiting staff in restaurants etc. Does he talk down to or about them? Or is he respectful and pleasant to them?
These are things you can look for when getting to know someone and these little things tell you a huge amount about their real character and whether they are going to be a loving respectful partner who will applaud you and your achievements or an abusive partner who will berate you and drag you down.
When a man shows you who he his, believe him.

Yes definitely controlling, your friend is quite right. Be thankful he’s your ex and keep it that way

thanks for the posts. i guess i can see that the comments and behaviour wasnt right...he never said them in a nasty way, that was the thing. it was always in a supportive tone, 'helpful' tone i suppose. i cant shake the guilt of when i got cross with him about it and it escalated. during those moments i would get angry and say things like "youre a bully" or "youre being abusive". that would then make things worse, and they werent nice things to say to him. two wrongs dont make a right and all that.

other times he wouldnt say anything horrible, but if i mentioned anything about the relationship, how he felt about something, for instance, he would barely give me the time of day on the topic and made me feel i was creating drama. i found that hard as i do think about things (maybe too much), but mostly i just wanted him to acknowledge what i was saying or feeling. i actually didnt want a huge fuss as he seemed to think the second such a topic was mentioned.

it is really hard to describe how i feel right now. sort of like a shell of who i was in terms of confidence in how i approached relationships. i also feel guilty and upset even though i dont miss his little remarks i am left questioning my reactions which alone probably did create drama and therefore he was right!!

I keep thinking if there were times he was reasonable, kind and loving, then it MUST be me that caused him not to be. it just doesnt make sense.

Op, it wasn't you! I can't tell you this enough! It was all on him.

You should be able to have open honest convos with your partner without being called a drama queen. It was his assumptions that you were after high drama that led the conversations that way - a self-fulfilling prophecy of you like.

He won't be a dick all of the time, no one is. But an it becomes abusive when it's not just one isolated incident. Everyone can be a dick at times but usually when it's pointed out to them they've behaved like a dick, normal healthy people apologise for it.

This wasn't the case with your ex. He didn't even let you talk about damage from a leak ffs! I don't know why, but I find this awful.

I can understand some people don't like talking about relationship things in case it gets too 'heavy' but this was floorboards for Christ's sake and he wouldn't even let you vent about that!

He is a controlling dick. I bet he charms the birds out of the trees though doesn't he?

I agree with BenjaminButtons

I felt exactly the same Lizzedays trying to make sense of it all..."If only I hadn't have said something in that way or mentioned that topic... then...."

In a normal healthy relationship you should be allowed to ask someone how they feel about something, talk about the relationship....talk about your feelings and expect some emotional support or at least someone to respect your right to be annoyed about something - not invalidating your feelings - stonewalling you - silent treatment - It's all conditioning to make someone feel so uncomfortable that they stop mentioning that topic or talking about their feelings at all. Can't you see it's a drip drip drip subtle way to undermine someone's perception of reality.
An ex girlfriend of his already said he is emotionally abusive....is that not enough for you to see that HE is the problem here? What's the common denominator...? Him.
Doesn't matter if he said it in a "nice, supportive" way.....!! My ex did this too... as a way to hide snide comments and throw me off when clearly in the core of my being I knew the intention behind them was not healthy or supportive/loving - I would protest and he would squirm out of it saying he was "Only trying to help" ..."Don't overreact" and all of a sudden he has swiftly made a subtle jab to your self esteem that you are not good enough as you are .... that other women would have done things differently or better....that somehow you are less than other women.... And at the same time turned it around on you so you question yourself and your own intuition/perception. Can you see how twisted that is? If a girlfriend spoke to you that way wouldn't you think she was toxic ? Even if said in a nice tone. Normal loving supportive boyfriends do not make comments like that continuously. It's a pattern designed to make you feel less than.

I will state it again - just because a guy is nice, reasonable, kind and loving sometimes, does not mean he is not abusive.

Please research this and see that your reaction - defending him & thinking it must be your fault - is classic victim of abuse behaviour.

Go and find his ex gf to talk to her about it and compare notes.

Please believe ME and all the other women here who have been through the same or something similar and come out the other side so we can now see it from a higher and clearer perspective.

Wait did you say his ex told someone he was emotionally abusive...or was that another similar thread ?! Apologies if I've got that mixed up !

definitions of emotional abuse that relate to your situation:

"- Criticism. This could be things like namecalling or making lots of unpleasant or sarcastic comments. This can really lower a person’s self-esteem and self-confidence.

• Undermining. This might include things like dismissing your opinion. It can also involve making you doubt your own opinion by acting as if you're being oversensitive if you do complain, disputing your version of events or by suddenly being really nice to you after being cruel.
• Being made to feel guilty. This can range from outright emotional blackmail (threats to kill oneself or lots of emotional outbursts) to sulking all the time or giving you the silent treatment as a way of manipulating you.

Sometimes, people wonder whether ‘abuse’ is the right term to describe any relationship difficulties they’re going through. They may feel like their partner shouts at them a lot or makes them feel bad, but think ‘abuse’ would be too ‘dramatic’ a word to use.

But the point of whether behaviour is abusive is how it makes you feel. If your partner’s behaviour makes you feel small, controlled or as if you’re unable to talk about what’s wrong, it’s abusive. If you feel like your partner is stopping you from being able to express yourself, it’s abusive. If you feel you have to change your actions to accommodate your partner’s behaviour, it’s abusive."

Source: www.relate.org.uk/relationship-help/help-relationships/arguing-and-conflict/what-emotional-abuse

@Falulah that definition of abuse has just described exactly how I feel with DH

@AccidentallyRunToWindsor

How are you feeling ? Have you been thinking this for a while...that's why you've been reading the thread... Or you just realised ?

I've been feeling like he's not interested in me,bored of me for ages but reading that has just been like a lights gone on.

I can't talk to him about I feel, he trivialises things I love, and Everyone thinks he's such a nice guy

What a massive, superficial, sexist, nagging pain in the arse of man. Yuk. Why don't you just be grateful he's gone..?

OP, in the nicest possible way intended, so you think he's sat on a forum somewhere or talking to friends questioning himself and his treatment of you. Do you think he's chewing the fat with a friend and saying, "I know I could be spiteful towards Lizzedays. I know I put her down sometimes and made her feel insecure. What if I'd have done x, y and z instead? Maybe we'd still be together."

He won't be

^ This, 100%

He was a nasty man who gaslighted you and made you doubt yourself.

Do not waste another minute of your life thinking about him.

So so glad you are no longer together!!

He sounds like a narcissist and they are very clever at manipulating people with mind games/guilt trips and everyone else is always at fault, you can't change people like this they will never except it's them with the problem so don't waste any time or breathe.

OMG... that's all terrible! you had to finish these relations just after first thing occurred.
My future ex husband is something like that - trying to make me feel miserable and guilty about everything in the world.
Thats a clear abuse and it would be only worse. Good that its finished!)