Was this abuse, is this normal, did i cause it? Totally lost.

[lizzedays]

Hi. I've posted a few times recently as i have been struggling with some stuff. i am getting better slightly and appreciate the mumsnet support - thank you.

ive been thinking about my past relationship as i said something to a girlfriend yesterday completely in passing and her reaction was that my partner was controlling. i keep going over it all and just wanted some objective views on it. i know it isnt good to constantly go over stuff like this, but i am feeling really conflicted about it all. these are some examples of what went on:

• on the beach and he asks if i am going to take my bikini top off. i say no. he says other people have (one other had). i said i felt uncomfortable. he said go on. i said no and tried to go back to reading my book. he stopped talking and seemed to be in a mood, although he didnt say anything. an hour later he suggests we go in the sea. he asks me to take my top off in the sea and gets annoyed when i say i dont want to. i then give in.

• we go to the beach for the day and he asks why i havent packed my make up because we were stopping at a nice bar on the way back. i said i didnt feel like wearing make up on the beach or taking it with me in the heat. he said "dont you want to look nice in the bar?" I then asked if he was suggesting i didnt look ok without make up. he immediately reared up and said i was sensitive, dramatic and causing an argument and that he was "only trying to help." i then got upset at his reaction and he says "here come the waterworks."

• he offered to pay for a fake tan and wax for me. i said i didnt want a fake tan and would go for a wax but didnt want it all off. he then said most women would and he would like that. i said do you not like me as i am and as above, he then calls me sensitive and a drama queen looking for an argument. i try to explain that i just feel like he doesnt think i am good enough, he then calls me insecure and says he doesnt care what i do or whether i have a wax, and that he is just telling me his preference. this happened on repeated occasions.

• asked me why i dont have a specific type of bag that "most girls have and like." i had no idea what he was talking about and that seemed to make him see me as someone who wasnt as womanly as he wanted. (im really girlie and into handbags but was quite happy with the one i had!).

• would pressure me into not using condoms because it felt better. i understood he felt this way and he would sometimes use condoms but always made a point that it wasnt as good with them as without. i know that is a man thing and he was right about the feeling but he always made a big deal out of it.

• if we ever argued he would suddenly give me silent treatment and act like i didnt exist, quite literally. i could be crying in front of him and he would say i was pathetic and not tell me why he wasn't speaking. this could sometimes happen out of the blue if he was upset with something at work etc.

• when we were away once, we had a drink then walked past a hat shop. he told me i looked great in a hat. the following night we walked past another similar shop and i went in and was trying them on, he said "come on let's go, you look shit in a hat." this was said in a joking tone, and when i said that's not very nice, did you mean that, he said ffs of course i didnt, i told you yesterday you looked great in one. maybe thats me being sensitive.

• i had a leak in my house and i was worried about what had happened to the flooring. he said he was sick of talking about it and that if he deems something not important/not an issue then he doesnt engage with someone about the issue. i said what if its something im worried about though - he said if he thinks it is nothing then he cant be arsed and that was just how he was. he seemed unhappy generally that day so maybe he didnt mean that and was just having a bad day.

• never apologised for anything ever. used to say his mum never apologised to his dad, this was apparently something to be proud of.

in the end i had so much resentment because if i ever questioned him on things he had said, he would instantly call me insecure, a drama queen and sensitive and tell me i was causing an argument. i definitely did get upset now and then, and looking back, if i had said nothing and just let these things go then we wouldnt have argued about such things. that is just a fact. and it makes me wonder if i do have issues where i am sensitive and a drama queen. there were times when i definitely did question him and how he felt, based on the little criticisms he made (at least i felt like he was being critical, and maybe he wasnt at all). i feel so confused by it all.

add to all of it, he did some lovely things. bought me things and was generous, could be comforting at times if he wanted to be. it makes me think it was therefore down to me. if i hadnt reacted to anything and just taken his comments as him trying to help, then we wouldnt have argued.

head is in a spin. need some brutal, honest advice so i know where i am going wrong in future.

It's abuse, my ex used to be the same: hair not straight enough, eyebrows not perfect, legs not waxed, didn't like my clothes. It took me a long while to realise this and walk away. I still have insecurities (8 years of being told not good enough) but I am learning to be more confident and I have a wonderful husband who loves me for me

my main thought is that i did end up getting cross and upset. that did happen - that could be perceived as causing drama or an argument.

maybe i was as bad as him by reacting angrily or snapping at him.

arent victims of abuse meek and unable to stand up for themselves? 9/10 i did stand up for myself even if it ended in my own tears.

Please read my post at the end of the Page 1 - think we crossed posted !

Please look up Narcissistic Cycle of Abuse - Love bomb - Devalue - Discard

Yes maybe you do have issues in being reactive and codependent - but that doesn't mean any of this was your fault. A non abusive man would not have caused those reactions or tried to elicit those reactions from you. It's normal to second guess yourself after you have been treated this way and had you self esteem eroded by a relationship. Yes you have work to do on yourself....but not in the way he is claiming. He is 100% the abusive and toxic person in the dynamic.

"my main thought is that i did end up getting cross and upset. that did happen - that could be perceived as causing drama or an argument.

maybe i was as bad as him by reacting angrily or snapping at him.

arent victims of abuse meek and unable to stand up for themselves? 9/10 i did stand up for myself even if it ended in my own tears."

NO NO NO - I stood up for myself too and rightly so called him out as I knew what he was saying wasn't kind, loving or right....I never stopped standing up for myself in strong way - not shouting just stating my boundary and being clear that what he said is not ok. The fact you are even questioning yourself on this and making excuses for his behaviour and saying maybe if I hadn't had reacted...shows you have been psychologically conditioned by him. He has called you too sensitive, drama queen, overreacting - GASLIGHTING - (please research) and for long enough that you now question your own reality. Any woman would react that way to those comments. They are not normal. I remember having these EXACT same thoughts as you - Victims of abuse are not meek and unable to stand up for themselves - THEY ARE WOMEN LIKE US. Smart, intelligent, strong, articulate - but just low self esteem and a bit vulnerable to these type of men possibly because of our childhoods - believing we have to work hard to get someone to love us and we have to put up with someone else's moods because someone else's needs are always more important than ours deep down.

Maybe you would have become meek and unable to stand up for yourself once he had completely broken your self worth down to nothing....It starts with emotional & psychological abuse and it almost always graduates to physical in some way whether thats smashing a cupboard in an argument to frighten you...slamming on brakes of the car...that's how it starts. You have thankfully got out of this controlling and abusive relationship where you still have some strength left in you. That is why you are not meek and unable to stand up for yourself.

My gosh. From what I've read, I see no grey area. He sounds massively insecure & he projected it all on to you. Bullet dodged.

Also...you will be somewhat in denial and loyal to him still making excuses for him and somewhat trying to explain and protect him still. This is all part of how he has made you dependent on him with the breadcrumbing of Mr Nice Guy, subtle but powerful devaluing comments that he then turns around on you and gaslight you to make you think YOU are the crazy and sensitive one.

I was in denial for a long time still making excuses for him and assuring people that "he's not a horrible person..." "he was nice a lot of the time too he did some nice things for me and he could be comforting at times..." " he did meant well deep down".. It's taken me 3 years to realise. No, no he didn't.

one thing i didnt mention was that his ex used to call him emotionally abusive. i found out through mutual friends. i ignored it, thinking she was bitter. i feel like such a fool.

Stop making excuses for him OP. Listen to the wise words being given to you by the MN ladies. He was constantly criticising you and bringing you down until you didn't know if you were coming or going! You are well rid of this manipulative idiot. How would he have reacted if you'd suggested he do some gym work, lose weight, wax his chest hair etc?

i wouldnt have suggested those things as i loved him for him. i also didnt have much interest in or notice that sort of thing. lots of women have full waxes and wear heels all the time - i think men just do say these things, but with him it just felt like a step too far

one other thing..one time i saw he had written in a notebook "am i a narcissist?" and "why cant i find happiness?" this was written shortly after he had been called a narcissist by his ex.

surely someone who had asked those questions isnt really capable of actually being a narcissist?

Lizzedays -
I know.... my ex he would say his ex gf Kate was crazy and she was a basket case etc and say she accused him of all these things which were a lie..said she was a liar etc and played the victim saying oof yeah I just had to end it with her she got so intense and she had a lot of issues.

Then when we split up and I was trying to heal...I remembered how he always said his ex's were "Crazy" ....and how one of them jumped out of a moving car in a bikini during an argument with him...Now I understand why. He pushed them to this point. And then turned it around on them - "WOAH calm down crazy!" and acts like he is the victim and they are unstable.
So I then reached out to his ex Kate on FB and confided in her....it was so healing for me to talk to her as I realised I was not alone and I was not crazy. We are now friends ! We are so similar ! He chose very similar victims...both "givers" / "healers" with Daddy issues - both wanting security & to look after someone - he faked that he could provide that so we could be drawn in ...

She is now married to a wonderful caring man and has a son with him after she had some therapy to recover.... Her new man is her best friend and the most caring and loving relationship. There wasn't something fundamentally wrong with her...she wasn't bad at ALL relationships - she was just choosing the wrong men and she needed to do a little inner work and therapy on her low self esteem and belief about what she deserved from relationships. Me too. We are flawed but we were not the problem. He was and he does it subtly to everyone in his life who is close to him. Then discards them when he's had enough or when they don't break down as quick as he likes. And moves onto the next.

No, men don't just "say those things". A good man, a good relationship, makes you feel good about yourself. He didn't do that, he didn't want to do it.

Lizzedays, I’m sure even serial killers had moments of being pleasant and nice to their partners. Doesn’t mean they weren’t serial killers. My point is that the times he was nice don’t negate the fact that this is emotionally abusive. Just because you stood up for yourself - and that’s good you did - doesn’t mean it isn’t. He was belittling and insulting you, trying to make you feel bad and inadequate for who you are and what you look like, overstepping your boundaries (the taking bikini off on the beach thing) and apparently having an incredibly narrow, cliched and stereotyped idea of what women should like and look like. He sounds utterly vile. Even if you are insecure or “have your flaws” as you put it, so what? Doesn’t excuse his behaviour. And no wonder you feel that way after him being so horrid

Narcs are not self aware enough to realise they are a narc. He may not be full blown ! He may just be abusive. He may be unconscious of it.... He is degrading you ... and he may not even realise it but he is getting subtle ego boost from putting you down and then deflecting onto you to smokescreen his intentions - subconscious or not - to get a kick out of making someone else feel less than and dependent on his approval / swayed so much by him. Even thought he complained about your reactions he wanted those reactions. So he would feel less crazy himself maybe. So he could label you the crazy one. Deflect the attention from his own issues with women/himself/ deep insecurities himself. Can only feel good by making someone else feel less than. Maybe just a bully.

dont you have to be a narcissist to be a bully and abusive? arent they one and the same?

The fact that you say "men just say these things" - no...no not good respectful, emotionally healthy men.
I thought this too - I had this belief - men just get angry and have a temper and women have to put up with it...this is just the way things are, I shouldn't be so sensitive about it, it's kinda normal really.
No. No it's not. Look at where that belief is coming from ?

I've only met one guy in all the guys I've dated, been in relationships with who thought it was ok to put me down and make snide comments - disguised as observations - just saying etc - or to mock me when I was crying - - - THE ABUSIVE EX I SPEAK OF. (oh and my Father when I was little - funny that....)

No man before or since has ever thought it was his place to make these comments or this behaviour. Silent treatment /stonewalling as well is classic COVERT NARCISSIST behaviour.

Lizze - the tosspot you describe in your posts is making ME feel angry and I haven't had the pleasure of meeting the twat!

Trust me, it's not you it's him.

I had a relationship where my ex made me feel insecure, EVERYTHING became an argument between the two of us because simply put, he was jealous and insecure.

Not quite the same situation as yours but he chipped away at my self esteem, he got into the most jealous obscene rages if I dared to as much as have a drink with friends, he didn't like me talking to any member of the opposite sex, you get the gist. And I stood up to him every time. How dare HE pin that shit on ME? Yes he made me angry. He made me lose confidence in myself and my own judgment too but I recall feeling so angry and hurt at him for trying to isolate me.

And you know what? True to form he HATED me more than anything for standing up for myself. So he'd chastise me for 'causing an argument'. He wouldn't apologise for anything. He would give me the silent treatment for days on end, he withdrew from sex as a punishment until I said sorry to him etc.

My point is, that these men can't seem to smell their own bullshit. They try to put a woman down so they have her where they want her. If she is submissive he thinks it's great. But if like me and by the sounds of it you, she has a strong sense of self it drives them crazy because they can never truly 'own' you. So they spin the blame on to you. "It's your fault I'm on a mood, if you hadn't have opened your mouth and said x, this wouldn't have happened", or "If you'd have done this instead, I wouldn't be acting like this". Classic abuser tactics.

It's all bullshit, no man worth his salt should put a woman through hell just to prove a point. But they are blind to it. Because men like this are damaged. I could almost forgive my ex as I knew his ex wife cheated on him and left for someone else. I knew he was insecure. I understood. And I would never have given him anything but loyalty. Unfortunately he tarred all women with the same brush and the abuse started almost straight away when we were dating. The jealousy and the kicking off at me, swearing at me for being with friends instead of him.

I look back and think it's utterly ridiculous now. I know it was all coming from him. I know I couldn't have 'fixed' him nor did I want to. I just wanted to be loved but he was toxic.

What happened with your ex isn't your fault. I wouldn't stand for that shit now, and I would have told him to fuck the fuck off if I were you but that's because I've been through this shit before.

It's not you OP, please don't try and second guess yourself. I'm willing to bet my last quid you would have done anything in your power to have not hurt him. So why would he not do the same for you??

Answer) because he's a spineless asshole.

i just wanted to love him. it is really hard to put into words, but i never felt like he actually talked with me? like he wouldnt open up and be vulnerable and say sorry, ask for help or give help, no real true support or intimacy was there. it is hard to explain. his way of giving support was almost always material.

thank you for the posts by the way - i have read them all very closely and i am thinking about it all in a different way.

he definitely was having a hard time as i know he felt down about his weight and things werent great at work and he was fighting his ex over his house and whether she had a right in it or some equity. things werent easy for him that is for sure.

Ahhh yes. He didn't open up to you. Likelihood is that he doesn't have the emotional capacity to. In other words he is emotionally stunted. Doesn't have what it takes to really develop an intimacy and closeness with a person. So anything he can 'offer' is on a very superficial level.

You say sometimes he would comfort you. I bet it was a cheap imitation of empathy, likely to have been copied from somewhere. I bet he didn't truly understand what bothered you and why. As soon as he said 'there there' it would all be forgotten in his head.

Also...you will be somewhat in denial and loyal to him still making excuses for him and somewhat trying to explain and protect him still.

This is 100% spot on!

I did the same after all the horrible crap my ex delved out on to me. Some people in the months after the split said my ex was miserable (as in not fun to be around, not the sad kind). I immediately jumped to his defence out of some weird 'loyalty' towards him. "Oh he's a nice guy really". Now I look back and think he's a fucking twat and I wouldn't piss on him if he was in fire.

Textbook gaslighting.

You have had a lucky escape.

Google narcissism - that's him!

one time i saw he had written in a notebook "am i a narcissist?" and "why cant i find happiness?" this was written shortly after he had been called a narcissist by his ex.

surely someone who had asked those questions isnt really capable of actually being a narcissist?