DH verbally abused me and won't apologise.

[nomoreragesplease]

I've name changed for this thread, but hardly ever post, so it's taken a lot of courage to post as I'm usually very private, and it's hard to give the whole picture. I don't want to make my DH look really bad, I'd say he's 95% a good husband and parent, he plays with the children much better then me, he does more cooking and shopping. He's doesn't clean or tidy though and sometimes I feel like I'm clearing up after 3 kids. He's very sociable and my friends all think he's great but they don't see his moody side.

DH has occasional rages, I think around 4 times a year, he shouts, has thrown the occasional mug, swears. Apart from the big rages he gets quickly angry and then mutters and swears under his breath, clenches his fists and has bulging eyes (psycho eyes I call it) so he can look pretty intimidating. We always move past them, but this time he won't apologize for calling me a fucking bitch and shouting at me in an intimidating way in front of our children (6 and 8). I'm worried about the effect on them, he blames me for winding him up, and my DS (8) told me to stop winding him up while DH was shouting and swearing at me.

It started over something really trivial, we were on the beach, it was a busy beach, so he has no filter for his behaviour in public but I bet he wouldn't do it in front of his friends. I told him and he said that I wouldn't wind him up in front of his friends. I had to stop talking to him that day (we were about to head home anyway) and got the children to bed.

The next morning he acted as though nothing had happened, I apologised for being rude when he came back with sandwiches (how the argument started, we skipped lunch and agreed we'd go out for a proper dinner, and he'd gone to check out prices at a restaurant, or so I thought, but came back drinking a beer and eating a sandwich, so I said I don't want them, and said that I thought he'd gone to look at the restaurant). I asked him to apologise for shouting and swearing at me, he also squared up to me with fists clenched as though he would hit me (he never has hit me, he just acts intimidating, we've been together 14 years).

He stood there with fists clenched and gritted teeth and said "I'm sorry but you have to apologise to me for calling me a liar (I didn't), and winding me up". I didn't call him a liar and said this and tried to explain that his behaviour was unacceptable whatever I had said. He got shouty again and the children started crying so I dropped it and he went out. We were abroad and coming back that day, so I didn't say any more about it, he tried to act as though nothing had happened, trying to hold my hand, kissing my cheek.

My part in the row was that I won't go meek and submissive, if he shouts at me I will raise my voice in return, but only to be heard, and to tell him not to shout or swear. I didn't call him a liar, but did say repeatedly that I thought he'd gone to check out prices at nearby restaurant, and noted that he had got himself a beer. I didn't mean to be goady, but I think I did call him selfish, he says I did, I don't know now. I definitely did comment that he'd got himself a beer, and that I thought he was going up to check prices and come straight back (restaurant was in view of beach, 5 mins there and back, he was gone at least 20 mins)

I didn't sleep last night thinking I'm sick of his rages, even thought they are only occasional. Last one was May 1/2 term, so 2 months ago.

The children both asked me if we're friends again, and told me they don't want us to split up. I just want my husband to take responsibility for his own loss of temper.

We're supposed to be going out tonight, this morning I said I don't want to go and said he's acting as though nothing happened and his behaviour was ok. He said he doesn't like it when he behaves like that, but he knows it wasn't just about a sandwich, implying again that he isn't responsible.

I know this behaviour isn't ok, but it would be so much easier to do what he's doing and just move on from it without addressing it. We have a nice life together, but every year at some point I think about getting some therapy together, but then things are ok for a few months. When I have mentioned therapy he says we don't need it.

I'm not really sure why I'm posting on here, I don't want to leave him, well if it weren't for our children I think I would. He doesn't seem to realise how bad his behaviour was, and I need some pointers for helping him realise and agree to getting help. Also maybe I was being unreasonable, but I was annoyed he'd been gone so long when we were getting ready to leave the beach.

Thanks to anyone who made it through my post.

No one is responsible for his behaviour but him. Do you want your children thinking it’s ok for him to do this if you ‘wind him up’? That it’s your job to be submissive?

it sounds horrendous, no way would I stay, but I don't know what to suggest if you are so sure you don't want to leave

And now you have your 8yo DS trying to make you STFU to appease daddy

That is a very damaging lesson. Your children will grow up to be an intimidating bully like him or completely unable assert themselves in life

Go him. And go you.

You risk raising mini dh's with regard to his rages - they will think its normal /acceptable to be like him.
Ime with similar exh and ds's.

Jesus op

The most worrying aspect for me is that your son is either so scared he is willing you to shut up OR he thinks this is completely normal and thinks you should shut up.

What effect is this having on his little brain and what will the consequences be for his to have a healthy relationship when he is older.

Your husband is s fucking nasty bully. Horrible

'I'm worried about the effect on them, he blames me for winding him up, and my DS (8) told me to stop winding him up while DH was shouting and swearing at me.'

It's already had an effect

A huge one

Get out of this mess

I can’t ever imagine labelling dh with any thing like ‘psycho eyes’, maybe you are just so used to this bullying tactic you have become numb to it.

Oh, OP, this is awful. It's no life at all for you. And your poor kids too, seeing their mum treated like that.
However much you reason away or explain his behaviour to us, what is actually bristling off the page is a dozen red flags of an abusive partner.
I know you are saying that his rage bubbles over 'only' about 4 times a year, but the other 'lesser' stuff you're taking about is NOT OKAY EITHER.

Have a look at this link
https://www.relate.org.uk/relationship-help/help-relationships/arguing-and-conflict/what-emotional-abuse

After a screaming attack, my violent ex. (and no, he 'didn't hit' me either - but, by the end, he tried to strangle and suffocate me) used to do the holding hands and kissing cheek thing, too. Just reading about this has made me feel sick again. Get out now! And read this

Couples therapy is not a good idea for abusive relationships. See here: www.thehotline.org/2014/08/01/why-we-dont-recommend-couples-counseling-for-abusive-relationships/

You can't change the way he behaves. He could, if he wanted to, but he very obviously doesn't want to. He thinks it's fine to behave like this. He doesn't even think it's his fault.

Your children don't want you to split up because they're tiny, they don't want to face big changes like that to their family. But you can't make decisions about whether or not to split up based on that. You're the adult, you can see the bigger picture: you understand the long-term consequences for them of living in this atmosphere, you know they'll still be loved and looked after if Mummy and Daddy live separately. You know this kind of relationship is not normal. But they are growing up to believe that it is.

Ok seems to be minor stuff blowing up between you.

I'm not seeing the issue with him getting a sandwich and a beer on the way back or what the rush was, the fact he was gone for twenty mins rather than five, but his reaction seems extreme.

None of it is good really.

My part in the row was that I won't go meek and submissive, - er, what? Is this your view, or his? Either way, it is totally, completely, utterly wrong.

Your 'part' in the row? He bullies you, he's selfish, he's aggresive - but it's you fault for not being meek and mild? Is HE meek and mild?

I don't want to leave him, well if it weren't for our children I think I would. I think you should turn that round - you should leave for your children. They are being damaged - it is well known that the children of abusers/abused show signs of the abuse - ie, they are being abused by being exposed to it.

Look into getting out. Every 2 months or so is too much - the only acceptable level of abuse in a relationship is ZERO.

Jesus, I won't call huge rages every three months occasional!! That's bloody frequently regular! And 'mini' rages inbetween! This is not normal or acceptable.

You have become so used to it, you don't realise how abnormal it is. Really consider counselling for yourself to work out what you want and why this is 'acceptable' in your life.
Your kids don't want change because this is all they know. They are young and can't rationalise that a different life would be better. And at that age different equals scary. Do what is best for them: what they need, not what they want.

Why are you still there? Leave for your kids

@PrizeWinningMammoth good point about counselling not being appropriate for abusive relationships. For clarity, only reason I linked to Relate was in case OP's internet history is being monitored. Relate website might be easier to explain without drama ensuing.
The link takes you to a checklist of questions relating to emotional abuse and at the end has contact details for Women's Aid.
OP's post sounded like maybe she wasn't yet ready to admit to herself it was That kind of relationship so Relate might be something she'd be more likely to click on...

Apologies OP, talking about you like you're not here. Hope that makes sense.

My husband was like this with his temper. The would throw temper tantrums if he thought I was implying he was being selfish. I used to make excuses for it. I used to rationalise that maybe I had caused it. But then it started to effect our daughter. She became increasingly more frightened of his potential reaction if she or I did/said something 'wrong'. It got so bad that she started to harm herself. I knew at this point that something had to change or I would have to leave. I told him that he had to learn to control his anger or we would be gone. And he knew I meant it. No more rages. No more swearing at me. No more intimidation and no more name calling. I'm happy to say that he's now a changed man but it would have only taken one more adult version of a toddler temper tantrum and I would have taken my babies and left.
I think the bottom line is that this won't just effect you. It's already effecting your children and as they get older they will become more challenging for him. I'd love to say that your children won't incur his rages but from experience would say its a given.

If it were me I'd tell him straight that he has to sort himself out and learn to deal with his anger in an appropriate and adult manner or you're done. But you really have to mean it and be willing to follow it through.

Mango - how did you make it happen? Did you write a letter? Just tell him in person? What hell did your OH get and where from?
I’m in a similar situation (outbursts of anger from OH) and I’m really struggling to deal with it. Thanks.

*help

I bet he shouted at you publicly on holiday, humiliated you in front of other people. You'd be the one whispered about 'I feel sorry for her, having to put up with that'. Or maybe they privately just thought 'what a pig'

He's just a man, OP. He's not your God. If you weren't with him you'd still survive with your children.

Of course you could stay, with the disrespect from your H and DCs (he's teaching your DC to look down on you) eating away at you over the years until you get old, bitter and regretful

asked him to apologise for shouting and swearing at me, he also squared up to me with fists clenched as though he would hit me (he never has hit me, he just acts intimidating, we've been together 14 years).

It doesn't sound like he is far from escalating this. Please look into getting support.

I was your son in this dynamic, OP. Both of my parents were prone to frequent terrifying rages like the ones you describe your OH is capable of. I grew up thinking this was normal and when I was old enough to have relationships, it was genuinely a shock to realise that not everyone was like this.

I was absolutely terrified of conflict and arguments. I’ve had a lot of therapy and am now able - just about - to assert myself when needed. But my model for relationships was so fucked up that I don’t know what a decent relationship looks like. I’m 43 and I’ve never felt loved, never lived with anyone, never had a child. I’m now resigned to being single for the rest of my life.

In my case, both my parents were like your DH, but my mum more than my dad. I used to lie in bed at night and worry they’d split up - because I was scared of change, scared I’d somehow be blamed, scared that breaking up would make them both more angry. I couldn’t imagine a life where things were calm and quiet and where there was no fighting.

I’m sorry I’ve gone on about myself so much - as you can imagine, your post was quite triggering for me. But I hope it’s made you realise a bit of how your DS might be feeling and how it might mess up your kids if things go on as they are.

Best of luck.

Your son will be his dad in 20 years time if this doesn't stop.

He'll tell his gf/wife she's winding him up.

Please get out for your poor kids before it is too late. The damage has already started for them.

Don't stay for them.

I grew up in a household with a lot of anger and shouting; I thought it was normal too. I started to realise that it wasn't when I was in my late 30s and my SIL expressed shock when I spoke about how often we argued as a family.

I used to act as peacemaker, or attempt to. One Christmas, as an adult, I was running up and down the stairs trying to resolve an argument between my DM, my DB and my DSis.

My parents used to argue a lot and shouted at us constantly. (They smacked us a lot too.)

This left my DSis thinking that marriages had to have fillings out, shouting arguments and threats to divorce in order to be a healthy relationship. She couldn't understand why my DH and I never argued. It made it really hard to see that her first marriage was abusive and she kept making excuses for his violence towards her, even after they had broken up. Her second DH is really lovely and never shouts at her. So obviously she now knows that her view of relationships was messed up.

I've learnt that I don't need to fix other people's arguments, and it has been so liberating not to be putting up with it.

Another thing that my DM taught me that was messed up was that the wronged person should make the first move. It was the relationship that was important not whatever the other person had done. In this way, she minimised the abuse we were suffering, we shouldn't stay angry about it.

I do urge you, OP, to think about the long-term effects on a child of living in a house full of shouting. Your DC will grow up thinking this is normal and that they have to put up with it as you are doing. Because children learn from their parents and copy their behaviour.

It might be possible for your DH to change like Mango86's DH did, but it's not your responsibility to help him change. You need to protect your DC, that's your priority.

I think you both need help. When you are getting along and both calm, tell him you want to see a therapist together. I would give yourself a set amount of time to see if there is change with some support. But you will be surprised when I say I think you might need to change too. For example - that phrase, which you used about 3 -4 times, - "winding me up" - what does it even mean?? - why is it even considered an acceptable way to articulate communications in your house?

I've never "wound anybody up" or accused anyone of "winding anyone else up" - crap language around human relationships creates crap confused behaviour. and now your children are using it too! His behaviour doesn't sound nice - but I think he's likely in the dark re' his emotional life as much as you are. Learn to find the right words together. And then if neither of you get anywhere - consider separating.