DH verbally abused me and won't apologise.

[nomoreragesplease]

I've name changed for this thread, but hardly ever post, so it's taken a lot of courage to post as I'm usually very private, and it's hard to give the whole picture. I don't want to make my DH look really bad, I'd say he's 95% a good husband and parent, he plays with the children much better then me, he does more cooking and shopping. He's doesn't clean or tidy though and sometimes I feel like I'm clearing up after 3 kids. He's very sociable and my friends all think he's great but they don't see his moody side.

DH has occasional rages, I think around 4 times a year, he shouts, has thrown the occasional mug, swears. Apart from the big rages he gets quickly angry and then mutters and swears under his breath, clenches his fists and has bulging eyes (psycho eyes I call it) so he can look pretty intimidating. We always move past them, but this time he won't apologize for calling me a fucking bitch and shouting at me in an intimidating way in front of our children (6 and 8). I'm worried about the effect on them, he blames me for winding him up, and my DS (8) told me to stop winding him up while DH was shouting and swearing at me.

It started over something really trivial, we were on the beach, it was a busy beach, so he has no filter for his behaviour in public but I bet he wouldn't do it in front of his friends. I told him and he said that I wouldn't wind him up in front of his friends. I had to stop talking to him that day (we were about to head home anyway) and got the children to bed.

The next morning he acted as though nothing had happened, I apologised for being rude when he came back with sandwiches (how the argument started, we skipped lunch and agreed we'd go out for a proper dinner, and he'd gone to check out prices at a restaurant, or so I thought, but came back drinking a beer and eating a sandwich, so I said I don't want them, and said that I thought he'd gone to look at the restaurant). I asked him to apologise for shouting and swearing at me, he also squared up to me with fists clenched as though he would hit me (he never has hit me, he just acts intimidating, we've been together 14 years).

He stood there with fists clenched and gritted teeth and said "I'm sorry but you have to apologise to me for calling me a liar (I didn't), and winding me up". I didn't call him a liar and said this and tried to explain that his behaviour was unacceptable whatever I had said. He got shouty again and the children started crying so I dropped it and he went out. We were abroad and coming back that day, so I didn't say any more about it, he tried to act as though nothing had happened, trying to hold my hand, kissing my cheek.

My part in the row was that I won't go meek and submissive, if he shouts at me I will raise my voice in return, but only to be heard, and to tell him not to shout or swear. I didn't call him a liar, but did say repeatedly that I thought he'd gone to check out prices at nearby restaurant, and noted that he had got himself a beer. I didn't mean to be goady, but I think I did call him selfish, he says I did, I don't know now. I definitely did comment that he'd got himself a beer, and that I thought he was going up to check prices and come straight back (restaurant was in view of beach, 5 mins there and back, he was gone at least 20 mins)

I didn't sleep last night thinking I'm sick of his rages, even thought they are only occasional. Last one was May 1/2 term, so 2 months ago.

The children both asked me if we're friends again, and told me they don't want us to split up. I just want my husband to take responsibility for his own loss of temper.

We're supposed to be going out tonight, this morning I said I don't want to go and said he's acting as though nothing happened and his behaviour was ok. He said he doesn't like it when he behaves like that, but he knows it wasn't just about a sandwich, implying again that he isn't responsible.

I know this behaviour isn't ok, but it would be so much easier to do what he's doing and just move on from it without addressing it. We have a nice life together, but every year at some point I think about getting some therapy together, but then things are ok for a few months. When I have mentioned therapy he says we don't need it.

I'm not really sure why I'm posting on here, I don't want to leave him, well if it weren't for our children I think I would. He doesn't seem to realise how bad his behaviour was, and I need some pointers for helping him realise and agree to getting help. Also maybe I was being unreasonable, but I was annoyed he'd been gone so long when we were getting ready to leave the beach.

Thanks to anyone who made it through my post.

I listened to .

Rugby01 - to begin with DH came across a plea for help on mn. It forced us to have some very difficult conversations where I told him I couldn't allow his behaviour to continue. Up to that point I enabled it because I was scared of how he might react. But I couldn't allow him to frighten our daughter. One thing I asked him was how would he feel if our daughter was with a man like him? Would he be happy? His answer was no. I think that was one turning point. Another was when I looked through some photos of me and my dad when I was a baby. My dad was an alcoholic and both verbally (to my mum, my sister and myself) and physically abusive (to my mum). I found a picture of him holding me with this look of absolute love and devotion on his face and said how bitter it made me feel that a man could look at someone with such love and then go on to treat them with such contempt. It took total honesty on my part which I found really hard after 12 years of putting up and shutting up. But it had to be done for my daughter's and my own mental health.

mango i think you are in the minority here and I am pleased your DP shaped up.

OP it isn't just verbal abuse, its emotional abuse. I suffered and still do suffer the rages of my ex. I used to pretend it never happened too, for a quiet, because I loved him, because I felt somehow responsible.

What I have learnt is that it isnt normal, he doesnt have to even do it that often, over time almost all scenarios are covered and you will fear his rages. This is my bvest advice, if you want to say you tried. Ask him to leave, ask him to get therapy, tell him if he shows you how he can be controlled and calm and not mess with your head, perhaps there would be a chance. If you are very lucky, like Mango, he might change. I would bet my life savings on it he won't. He will be so outraged you would suggest it, he will try make things difficult.

Don't live your life on eggshells. Being comfortable in your own home is a basic fundamental human right. Listen to your self, listen to how his rages make you feel. Your children will be feeling it too. My kids have adjusted so well. I am very proud of the boys they are. But in the start they would have given up all Christmas days to see us back together.

Your husband is a vile abusive bully and this toxic household you are raising your children in is extremely damaging for them. Your DS is already showing signs of damage. You need to leave for their sakes, now.

My friend was in a similar situation to you. She didn't leave her husband until her children were 14 and 18. By that time the eldest one was behaving exactly the same as her vile father and treated her mother like shit. The younger now has serious mental health issues, OCD, and also treats her mother like shit. They behave like this because they grew up in an abusive household. They have no idea what a normal family life should be like. Is this what you want for your children?

I have a dad like that and it messed me up. I grew up terrified I would marry somebody like him, only to find out that I'm more like him than I would care to admit. Don't put your children through any more of his shit.

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Your DH is abusive and it’s affecting your kids. If not for your own sake, please leave for theirs.

The children both asked me if we're friends again, and told me they don't want us to split up.

It doesn't matter what they think they want in this case. You're mum, and you know in your heart that this is not a happy family.

well if it weren't for our children I think I would.

It's because of your children that you need to leave. Stop hiding behind your children.

my DS (8) told me to stop winding him up while DH was shouting and swearing at me.

He's learning from you that it's easier to just take the abuse to get it to stop. But it will never stop.

Thanks everyone. I found it hard to read some of the replies, I read a couple and felt worse so didn't come back on for a couple of days. I was thinking that me walking round looking sad/ crying was affecting the children even more, and putting me into victim mode, but my head was spinning. It's very hard to present our whole situation in one post, which is why I pointed out that it's only a small percentage of the time that the rages happen.

.I know his behaviour isn't ok, and I am aware of how it can impact on my children. I grew up with a father who had frequent rages, but he also spoke to my DM in a very derogatory way on a daily basis, and was misogynistic, which had a huge impact on me, I self harmed and was very depressed in my teens and early 20s.

DH has a problem with managing his anger, but this last incident did shock me, especially when he continued it the next day.

I am raising my children to be emotionally aware, and talk to them about adults being responsible for managing their own behaviour. DS was copying his Dad in that moment, and I immediately reminded him that DH is responsible for himself and his reaction was inexcusable.

DH is not abusive to me at any other time, only on those rare occasions that he gets into a rage. As I say maybe 4 times a year, about 10 mins a time, so that's a tiny percentage of our daily lives. I'm not minimizing and I absolutely want him to address it, and he doesn't usually verbally abuse me personally. He usually shouts 'fuck off' and goes out to get some space / have a smoke.

On a daily basis he is respectful, supportive and never puts me down or insults me. He isn't controlling, and I'm probably more the boss at home than him BUT he does have a problem managing his temper. I don't feel as though I'm walking on eggshells with him at all as I did on a daily basis with my Dad.

DH did finally apologise (by text on Saturday night) and came home with flowers. I told him how scary he is when he behaves like that, he said he realises he must be, he doesn't like it.

I am going to look into some therapy for him, @Mango86 thank you for your reply it's good to know that it can help. I might start it out as couples therapy for a few weeks then leave him to get on with it. I have successfully made him get support in the past for his gambling addiction (by taking him to the meeting and telling him he had to go) and around 12 years later he still goes to his meetings, so I'm hopeful he will go.

@ciderhouse rules - yes it's my view. I won't back down and am very tenacious. My DM was submissive (in my eyes) when faced with DH daily rudeness and his rages. DH gets 'in the zone' as he puts it, but I won't be bullied into not putting my point of view across. Maybe at times when I can see he's losing his temper I should actually just save the conversation for a time when he's calm again.

@DaphneduWarrior - that resonates with me, I grew up being scared of conflict too, but luckily my DM didn't ever have rages, so I used to lie in bed wishing that my parents WOULD split up, from the time I was about 7. As an adult though I challenge myself, and have done some jobs where managing conflict is part of the work, it's different when it's personal though. Even in my professional life though I come away feeling anxious about my role for a while, go back to feeling like that insecure terrified child.

Hi op I think your comparing your dad and dh together and because dh isn’t constantly abusing you your not considering him abusive or less abusive.

They are both abusive.

Please be aware of the impact he is having on your dc. You are now being responsible for the damaging effects too.

Mske a dairy about his ‘outbursts’ to keep and look back on

Good luck to you and your kids

Having come from an abusive family I do wonder about other peoples lives - are all the men shouting at their partners in secret? My DF's friends had no idea what he was really like. I was so determined not to replicate my parents marriage, but feeling flawed myself I did pick a flawed partner (he told me about his gambling addiction when we first met).

You dont need him to apologise. You need to know that he crossed your line.

No, all men do not shout at their partners in secret. And all kids do not contemplate the prospect of their parents breaking up, or witness the shouting, or learn to allocate blame for the shouting.

You’re minimising this because he’s ‘not as bad’ as your father. That’s not good enough I’m afraid.

OP, i ended up in a relationship with an abusive man too although he was worse than my mum. But at the beginning the disapproval felt familiar. I hated the way he made me feel, like if i just tried harder he might be pleased with me [bonkers]
I was turning down other men to go out with him
[Whyyyy]
I left him and after an obsession with npd and abuse i began working on myself.

Please start that journey. It is worth it.

If he really wanted to stop acting like this he would be getting therapy himself, not needing you to sort it out for him.

I agree with some of what you say Jenny but as 50% of marriages end in divorce I reckon all kids at least consider the possibility of their parents splitting up. I also think that conflict is to some extent normal when you live closely together.

I do worry here though that the OP seems scared of him. And that he is less bad than her father......

Bringing you flowers does NOT make up for the way he made you and your DCs feel. The only acceptable amount of abuse in a relationship is none. I don’t believe you will leave because you are minimising his abysmal behaviour but deep down I think you know that the marriage has to end.

What I will say is, and I'm sorry Mango, no offence meant here at all, but you are by far the extreme exception and not the rule here. So I'm really sorry, but for me, your experience and the sharing of it are a little dangerous.

Also, just an extra, people can appear to be changed, but eventually, it will out. They will lose their temper again, it just has to be a perfect storm.

OP, this man is dangerous, he's even raised his fists to you. This

I grew up in a toxic household, I knew nothing else. I wouldn't have wanted change if someone had have asked me. As an adult, with now many issues with my MH, and also prone to anger outbursts due to that being normalised, I wish I had have grown up anywhere else in a safe environment. I also have never had a normal relationship like another PP. I know some people fall into abusive relationships themselves, I on the other hand can never grow close to anyone due to my lack of trust of people.

You say you would leave if not for the children. Well the children are your reason to leave, to be safe.

You did nothing wrong, you know that. So you said he didn't look at the restaurants (and I'm guessing only brought a beer for himself?). That was completely fine to say. His reaction was not, and the fact your children are now saying stop annoying him means they have learnt that he's volatile and blaming your actions for it.

He's clearly toxic and this isn't something that can really be changed now. His fist clenching is quite a red flag that he may escalate soon.

DH is not abusive to me at any other time, only on those rare occasions that he gets into a rage. As I say maybe 4 times a year, about 10 mins a time, so that's a tiny percentage of our daily lives. I'm not minimizing

You are exactly minimising it.

To say he is ONLY abusive this amount, and only for this long is minimising it.

No amount of abuse is the right amount of abuse. What he did to you, and in front of a beach full of people, then clenching his fists and gritting his teeth as he wanted you to apologise. I'm sorry, but that's not OK.

It’s exhausting being with a husband like this. It’s heartbreaking as most of the time they are so good then the rage comes & there’s nothing you can say or do to stop it, it just has to come out. After the rage goes they are so sorry but the damage for us is done that feeling of being unsafe and anxious and the reminder to be wary of the good times as you know the switch will come. It would actually be easier if they were in a rage all the time as you’d know where you stood, what you’re dealing with.

Don’t believe the apologies and I’m sorries, listen and you will never hear them own their behaviour and recognise they were wrong. They won’t change it will happen again, you just need to weigh things up decide if the good times are worth the rage, if you want to live with the not knowing and if the damage done is something you and your children can live with.

I don’t know my answers you probably don’t know yours but consider the children when you make your decisions

You're welcome OP. I just wanted to share my experience.
@bethy15 no need to apologise. I totally agree that my experience is not the norm. In situations like this it can be dangerous to do what I did but I know my husband and his anger well. DH finds violence against women abhorrent but didn't see the way he spoke to me as violence. Unfortunately I don't know the OP's H or how he might react to the confrontation. I would of course advise caution - the fist clenching could be a sign that it may escalate to physical violence, in which case I would probably disregard my experience.
OP I really hope your H sees sense and sorts himself out but I wouldn't allow this continue whether it means you try to confront the issue or get your ducks in a row and leave.

DH is not abusive to me at any other time, only on those rare occasions that he gets into a rage. As I say maybe 4 times a year, about 10 mins a time, so that's a tiny percentage of our daily lives. I'm not minimizing...

I’m sorry, I really am, but you are minimising. What I’ve quoted above is the very definition of minimising.

Saying he is ‘not abusive except for the times he rages at me’ is an oxymoron. He is abusive because of the times he rages at you. Being nice the rest of the time doesn’t change that.

I used to think of it in the same terms with my ex, so I’m not judging, just sympathising. I used to think that abuse was like a balance sheet and as long as the nice times outweighed the nasty ones, then we were doing ok. I was also really struck by your comment about wondering if other husbands were all yelling at their wives behind closed doors. I used to wonder the same, because it had become such a part of my ‘normal’ that I didn’t see how it could be any different. I thought all my friends who claimed they’d never had a big fight with their partners were either lying, or were in really boring relationships where they didn’t truly care about each other.

I’ve now been in a healthy relationship with a genuinely wonderful man for three years, and the idea of him yelling and swearing at me just feels absurd. He has not raised his voice to me once in all that time. It now feels completely bizarre that I ever thought such behaviour was normal or acceptable.

I’m not saying LTB immediately because I do believe that’s a decision only you can make, but please do yourself a kindness and start believing that you deserve absolutely zero abuse in your relationship, not that you have to tolerate it because it only happens every few months.

winding me up" - what does it even mean??

It's a phrase you see used by angry people like this, meaning 'you saying something that isn't 100% in agreement with me and what I do', which then becomes 'saying stuff deliberately to annoy me and make me angry'. They see it as someone else 'making' them angry by daring to do/say something of their own choice.

I used to ‘wind up’ my ex too. His expectation was that he should be able to yell and swear and stomp around like crazy, then he was supposed to be allowed to go to sleep or sit at his computer without a care in the world until he was ready to be all happy and smiley with me again.

Because I wouldn’t do that, because I would speak up and say ‘don’t talk to me like that!’ I was ‘winding him up’ which therefore justified huge amounts of further anger and the days of silent treatment which would usually follow.

I’ve seen people here refer to it as ‘training’. They train you to understand that if you speak up, you’re only making it worse for yourself and that it’s best to keep quiet and take the abuse. After each argument they leave you angry with yourself, thinking ‘if only I’d kept my mouth shut, it would have blown over. Next time I’ll behave better’.

It honestly broke my heart to read ‘my part the argument was that I refuse to go weak and submissive’. You honestly believe that an absence of submission and a refusal to accept his abuse is a fault, on a par with him yelling and swearing at you. It’s genuinely heartbreaking. Can you not see how you’re being ‘trained’ to behave yourself?