My mother, my husband, the horrible fights. LONG

[DrowsyDragon]

I suspect my husband has a DW problem.

My mum is a very volatile person. She can be the kindest and most generous person. Once when I was rejected for a job I wanted she travelled for three hours to take me out for lunch just to cheer me up. She had an abusive mother though and can be extremely agressive and occasionally violent. My father tends to side with her. For example when I was a teen, particularly if she had been drinking stupid fights would blow out of all control and end up either with her saying extremely harsh things - I am fundamentally selfish, self absorbed and cruel. Or her getting physica - grabbing me, shaking me, standing over me while I plead for her to stop, occasionally hitting me and on one occasion throwing a plate that broke and cut my foot. My father intervened but the following day neither apologise and the attitude seems to be she went too far but I provoked it and I have to look at my behaviour too. I guess I have been kinda conditioned into accepting it.

Things improved massively during my twenties, though she doesn’t like my DH who has been my partner since I was 20. She believes he is rude, anti social and has autism. He is not the best with social occasions and doesn’t like just going along with whatever mum is doing but he does his utter best to get on with her nevertheless - buys her niche presents, tries to take interest in her interests. He’s not naturally the most chatty or confiding of people - she hates this, loves people to rely on her - but he has always been an brilliant partner to me and helped me to see some of the ways she has persuaded me to accept her more nutty behaviour.

Anyway, recently I had a baby, first and only grandchild, mum has been delighted. Behaving well to my DD, heavily involved, wants to care for DD one day a week when I go back to work, all agreed. There has been a low level thread of her criticising me (BFing too long, not sharing the baby with her enough) and criticising DH (not involved enough - not true, he works from home and has been an amazing support). Despite this we, plus my best friend, agreed to go on a family holiday with her and DF. On the late night, she got drunk and picked a fight about sexism in science. It blew up horribly. She reduced me to hysterical tears, my poor friend to a panic attack and accused my DH of wanting to bring about Gilead (ie handmaid’s tale). All this while my DD some how slept in the next room. The following morning she sort of apologised to me and my friend “all families fight on the last day of holiday” but has been blanking my husband. On the way home she pulled me aside to say she is going to “sort him out” or maybe I should just leave him and have children with someone else. I was changing my daughter at the time and told her that this was utterly unacceptable to say to me, especially in front of my DD. She called me a shithead. I just don’t know where to go from here. She’s always been like this. One horrendous fight every six months to a year but often brilliant in between but this targeting of my husband is so awful and upsetting, especially for him. She’s so good with my DD now but what about in the future. I just don’t know where to go from here. Please be genital but any advice?

(Obviously we are not doing a family holiday again with them).

Yes, as NorthernSpirit says, your mother is a narcissist. Have a look at the stately homes thread on here, it is a real eye opener.

Please please please do not let your mother have your dd. She will groom her to accept shit just as she has done to you.

I am no contact with my narc mother. It struck me, two years ago, that I was exposing my dd to exactly what my mother had done to me by allowing her to have my dd for two weeks in the summer (we live 250 miles away from her, that should tell you something!). She regularly made her cry and she was upset a lot (not just because she missed me). My ds was not treated in the same way and he was fine.

Even though I know what my mother is, I was still dumb enough to think she was a good gm, until it dawned on me what she was doing. She has never had my dc since.

This toxic stuff, you can so do without it. I think you sound conditioned by it all, I don't think you will be able to keep away from her without support. Read up on daughters of narcissistic mothers, it helped me, as has Mumsnet.

The pleasing and placating is because she's groomed you to do that. I grew up as a massive people pleaser and would have done anything to keep the peace, because as a child, these outbursts are so terrifying, it really shakes your whole foundations.
It wasn't until she pushed it too far and I began to see it for what it was and got angry. Once you stop playing the game they can't cope and go on to show their true colours even more.

Op practically every poster has replied that your DM is abusive. It's time to become a good wife and mother and your DM has given you the perfect opportunity. Call your DM and tell her that her treatment of your DH s unacceptable, you are cutting contact until she provides all full and meaningful apology. Then follow through.

Stop minimising your DMs ridiculous behaviour. As for childcare - why on earth would you put your DC in harm's way of this lunatic? You need to take a long hard look at yourself.

Decide what level of contact you want in future. As pp have said use this as a reward for your DMs behaviour. Always call out bad behaviour and punish it.

When I grew up and my batshit idiot mother couldn’t get to me any more, she started on my DH. I think the same kind of thing is going on here. Tell your mother to fuck off and mean it.

Good luck OP

It is interesting that you write that the abuse became worse when you were in your teens - this is classic abusive behaviour! All was well when you were a dependent, compliant young child under her control but as soon as you started to become more independent and have your own ideas she used alternating generosity and emotional blackmail to keep you in line. Even as adult she is trying to exert control and drive a wedge between you and dh. I would definitely not allow her to do childcare nor have any unsupervised contact with your dd.

You might want to check out the out of the fog website that has a useful toolbox and forums for people suffering similar issues.
outofthefog.website/

When you tell her you have decided to put DD in nursery only and won't need her services that doesn't have to be a big character assassination.

In addition to childcare I am going to try and tell her quite how bad her behaviour was. See where that goes. So might be back wailing afterwards.

I realise it is a monumental moment for you to decide she's too unstable to do childcare. That doesn't mean it is a good idea to share that thinking with her. She will never believe she is wrong. It will get turned back on you.

Until you can find a way to move away you should go Grey Rock. It works.

Also please read Toxic Parents by Susan Forward, It's not very long and I think you will identify with many of the scenarios described in the first part of the book. The second part suggests ways of dealing with people like your mother.

I know when I bought it I felt guilty as it meant to me that I was "officially" acknowledging my mother as being toxic. But it's been really useful for me to have it underlined that her behaviour isn't normal as I sometimes used to feel I was going crazy.

I wish I'd read it years ago, might have saved myself, my husband and our kids a lot of heartache.

She sounds a lot like my mum. Could be very generous and supportive but without warning would flip over into making my life hell.

You know you can't leave your child with her one day a week. Occasional evening baby sitting maybe.

Hello again. Lots of soul searching and conversations with DH going in here. Thanks especially to commentators from a similar place - golondrina I read bits of your thread and my blood ran cold. My mum says similar things about DH being on laptops and not paying attention. Opened the link and looked for the book.

I tried free counselling at uni but didn’t get on with it. Not sure where to start with that now. Selfishly a bit terrified about not having a night alone with husband until dd is big enough to stay with my best friend - no other nearby family - but needs must. Sorry. Thoughts a bit all over the place. Not least cos backing out of childcare will bring the shitstorm down on my head from her and my dad and I am terrified.

But in the long run it will be well worth that shitstorm to protect your dd and to get a bit more distance.

She's toxic , a narcissist . You do not want her around your child.

Regarding the childcare...you need to be absolutely clear that not having het do it is your decision ..otherwise she'll want to blame your DH entirely.

Perhaps meeting her in a public place to tell her would be best and if she starts kicking off...get up and leave.

Tell her you and DH have each other's back (like her and your dad) and after her behaviour towards your DH, you are no longer happy for her to look after your DD.

Any phone calls after that...that end up in shouting at you...or manipulation from your dad... just politely say..you have to go and put the phone down.

I would see it as my responsibility to get my DM to apologise or I'd withdraw totally. There's a stage in life your parents need you more than the other way around. This is one of those times for me.

My BIL did something awful like your DM did to my DH and I told my Dsis... that we would not ever come to their house again if he didn't apologise. I was furious.

Would it not be easier to lay down the boundaries with her whilst her awful behaviour is still fresh in everyone's mind? The longer you leave it, the more chance she has to love bomb you and you'll feel unreasonable to upset her when she's being so kind.

Steel yourself and say it now - "Mum, your behaviour on holiday was completely unacceptable, and I will not tolerate you treating DH, or any of us, like that. I'm not going to put up with you badmouthing him any more. Also, we've been talking... thank you for offering to look after DD one day a week, but we will be making other arrangements". No guilt, no compromise - not in a million years would I let her have your DD a day a week - she'll have you all exactly where she wants you.

Think about the fear you are feeling at the thought of even speaking to her about childcare, let alone cancelling it. That fear isn't normal, it's your standard reaction to doing something you know she won't like.
One of the hardest lessons to learn with a narcissist is that there shouldn't be this feeling of fear - normal mother/daughter relationships don't have this. They have difficulties, disagreements etc, but they don't have this fear which we become so used to over the years.
In the end you will need to stand up to her, whether it's now or a couple of years down the line when your little one comes home with a handprint on her leg, or a few years after that when she's upset with her daddy and it turns out grandma has been "joking" about what a bad dad he is.

I have four sons, on the whole DH and I get on well with them, however one has a very short temper and a vicious tongue and will blow up without very little provacation. However I have never ever called my son a "shithead", and he has never called me that either!
He apologises profusely when he is calmer, have you OP been apologised to by your Mother, did she apologise to your friend?

I'm sorry Op she doesn't deserve to have a relationship with an innocent infant until she learns how to behave like a civilised human being and a loving Mother.

She’s not really big on apologies. She tells me I have to accept that about her and that I apologise to often. Her career which involved a lot of fighting for people and which she was brilliant at I think also programmed a certain amount of unyielding. I keep showing this thread to DH because he thinks it’s really helpful and it is helping us talk. The big fight was now almost a week ago.

I have to be honest though I am still terrified. I am an only child and the only other family I have are some second cousins in another part of the country - though I get on well with them - I know how hurt my dad will be losing a day with my DD and mum and it’s very hard to face a lifetime of trying to please them or to feel like I am losing half my family. Because they will take this so badly. During a fight about wedding planning my mum wouldn’t speak to me for over a week, took to her bed, claimed to develop insomnia and threatened not to come. I must sound like such a coward to you all. I think I am trying to find a way to pretend that all consequences can be on my head. I would never ever want my DD to feel like this.

She will feel that way if you let them look after her. Your dad was part of the problem, it's not going to be any different now. Did he worry about how hurt you'd feel as he stood by while your mother abused you?

"Not being big on apologies" is a cop out, any body reasonable would analyse their behaviour and apologise if appropriate.
She is saying "I shall do/say whatever I like and you all have to accept it".
I would call her bluff, and the next time she unreasonably kicks off insist on an apology, I mean really apologise, and if she doesn't have nothing to do with her until she does.

You don't mention any in-laws does DH have a supportive and loving family?

Sorry to be harsh, I know your feelings are delicate. I've been there, still am sometimes. But it can take a big, simple, hard to see picture to make you understand fundamental truths about parents who fail us and hurt us without a seconds pause.

I did challenge my dad on that once. He got very upset and said it was impossible being trapped between wife and daughter. But she gets his ear all the time so I think I get drowned out.

My in laws are a long way away by plane so they are a bit remote. Despite that mum gets very tense about being the favourite grandparent.

Peekyboo your point about her lack of hesitation hits home. I am often taken aback by how quickly and accurately she can cause pain. She does maintain that I am constantly hurting her and she is constantly biting her tongue around me but I struggle to see how that is true.

I would never ever want my DD to feel like this.

If this is really, genuinely true, then you need to take very decisive action now. At the moment you are perpetuating the cycle by complying with the guilt trips both she and your DF are laying on you (because make no mistake, by pressuring you to put up with her behaviour, your father is putting your mother's needs and wants - and his quiet life - above the wellbeing of everyone else in the family).

I cringe at the amount of "go NC!", "your parent/DP/friend is a Narc" stuff I see on MN, and I'm not telling you to cut her off or anything, but I do have a lifetime of experience with parents/GPs/etc who had some very unreasonable behaviour patterns/behaviours/expectations, and the only way to deal with that is to

• recognise the game
• call them out on the game, clearly and calmly, and
• refuse to continue playing the game.

During a fight about wedding planning my mum wouldn’t speak to me for over a week, took to her bed, claimed to develop insomnia and threatened not to come. I must sound like such a coward to you al

Um.

so you stood up to her and she took to her bed for a week?

That is incredibly manipulative, you know. Healthy families discuss things honestly and if there's a disagreement, resolve it by talking about it and sometimes, accepting that the other person might say No.

English culture finds that hard, but this sort of manipulation isn't ok.

It’s weird Tatter. On the times when I have tried to pull back she accuses me of game playing. But I take your point. Sort of wish I could pull all of this sane advice out of my pocket when I am talking to her. Need to control my own reactions better too. I get tearful or shouty then tearful.

This has been a difficult while since posting this thread. A lot of soul searching and to be honest finding more weakness than I am happy with. I want to protectDD and then go cold when actually contemplating the action of “rejecting” DM. I am also discussing all of this with DH. He is being very supportive and helping me have a backbone. So it’s both of them to not let down. I need to keep telling myself that. Thanks everyone for reading my not very edited thinking.

There are a few mental tricks you can use.

Literally, you can write the points down that you need to remember, fold them up on paper and put them in your pocket. Put your hand in your pocket and touch that piece of paper to steady yourself when you need to.

Another is to imagine a rock that you can stand on when you are talking to your mother - it's massively easier if you have a supportive DP but it's still you that has to do it - and when you talk to her, imagine your feet firmly on that rock. That rock is made up of knowing what's right for your baby and for your partner and for you. Imagine a glass wall between you and her.

it's incredibly difficult, I know. But it -is- possible and you -can- do it. Remember you are being manipulated, and that just really, really isnt fair.