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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

I actually agree with his ex. How do I reason with him?

100 replies

Harveyy · 14/07/2018 10:00

Me and DP have been together for 3 years. We are expecting out first and are very happy.

He has a DD, 6, who is a sweetheart and an absolute pleasure to spend time with.

DP does not get on with his ex. His daughter often doesn't want to come here, this concerns DDs mum, understandably. He moans to me regularly about how his ex is concerned that DD doesn't want to stay here, that she's done this and she's said that, and calls her every name under the sun. His exes main concerns seem to stem around how happy her DD is whilst she's here, and that she's trying to help him out. His DD has recently stated she doesn't like it when he gets angry. He does have a temper and flies off the handle at silly things (not aimed at anyone but for example if he bumps his head he will shout and vent about it for 30 seconds). This scares his DD. Again, his ex has brought this up, but he refuses to acknowledge it and calls her a meddling so and so.

I'm finding this really hard as I actually agree with what his ex is saying and think he is ruining his relationship with his daughter by not acknowledging these concerns for himself.

I genuinely believe his ex is trying to help, but because he is such a defensive person, he can't ever see that he's wrong.

His DD confided in me this morning that she thinks her daddy likes his mobile phone more than her and I'm just so scared to raise it with him based on how he reacts to ha ex raising similar issues.

What do I do and how do I go about talking to him? I want to do it in a way that is clearly from a good place so he understands, not just so he gets defensive and fails to listen to what I say. I don't want him to feel attacked.

Help?

OP posts:
FiestaThenSiesta · 14/07/2018 12:00

Bullshit that he loses his temper and can’t help it around you, his child yet is disciplined enough not to behave the same way around his peers and superiors at work. That is control.

My dad was similar - accidentally spilled a glass and would rant and rave at air, making my mum feel like she was to blame. And she’d clean it up apologetically just to make the situation go away. I grew up with it and didn’t really “see it” until I came back from a summer away at 16 and thought what the actual fuck? Why is he upsetting us because he was clumsy? I went slightly ballistic in a way only a riteous teen can and shouted at them both - my mother for playing a martyr and my dad for being an assholes. He didn’t magically stop doing from then on, but he absolutely got a grip and worked on his temper until he broke the habit.

Your partner does it because you allow him to.

Harveyy · 14/07/2018 12:00

Thanks @Kabeca - regardless of all this I am really excited to be a mum. This baby will be so loved (he/she is already!)

OP posts:
Harveyy · 14/07/2018 12:02

@FiestaThenSiesta agreed. I do allow him to entirely and take responsibility for my part in this. Problem is I've allowed him too for so long when really I should never have accepted it in the first place.

OP posts:
dangerrabbit · 14/07/2018 12:09

Don’t blame yourself OP but think about what you can do going forward. I agree with other posters that some couples counselling could be useful or individual counselling if he refuses to get your thoughts in order. People are giving some good advice on this thread and want to help but it seems rather strongly worded and I wonder if it is too difficult to hear at this time. Good luck to you OP 🍀

BounceAndClimb · 14/07/2018 12:16

You need to have a talk with him (once DSD has gone home if shes with you).
Say if he's getting angry to go into a different room and calm down. Make it clear that from now on shouting infront of children will not be happening as its not acceptable behaviour. Make a rule that neither of you are on your phones while looking after DSD other than quick checks of messages etc and tell him what she said.

When DSD is next with you he needs to apologise that she felt like that, tell her that he hadnt realised how she felt and that family is the most important thing in his life and that he loves her and will not be using his phone as much.

SuperL · 14/07/2018 12:27

The sad thing here is that it's YOU who is asking what you need to differently when it's HIM that is the problem. If he didn't have such anger issues, it wouldn't matter what tone or language or how you should approach him. Good luck OP.

eggncress · 14/07/2018 12:27

The thing with MN is that people don’t know your dp as well as you do. Based on his behaviour as you describe it and the effect it has on those close to him we can arm you with useful info about abusive behaviour and offer advice and describe our own experiences.
You can then think about all this, apply it to your own situation and then decide what to do, how and when.
I know some posters use strong words but this is one of those places where your thoughts and actions will be challenged. Sometimes that’s a good thing because in rl people perhaps wouldn’t tell you what they really think.
Seeing it all written down in black and white really makes you think but it can be tough listening to it all.

Lweji · 14/07/2018 12:28

When you raised the mobile issue with him, did he say anything about using it less often around DD?

See what he does, though, not what he says.

The thing is, he's already showing you what he is when you "allow" him to be like this.

If you raise the subject, and he senses that you're not secure, he's likely to behave well for a while. A while could be years.
And he will revert to what you're witnessing now if he senses you are in any way dependent on him. He will.

Lweji · 14/07/2018 12:30

I do allow him to entirely and take responsibility for my part in this.

You don't "allow" him. It's not your job to police him. That is not a good basis for a relationship.

confusedscared2018 · 14/07/2018 12:31

@Harveyy I'm sorry if you took it that way as that's not how I meant it. He sounds similar to my ex with his temper. I had a baby with him and his anger was not good for me let alone a baby. The stress of a child new baby etc can bring about more episodes.

twiglet · 14/07/2018 12:38

Have you tried filming his rants?
Many people don't realise how much they shout or behave until they are shown the evidence. Not in a nasty way but it maybe a tact if he doesn't really listen.
I would also explain to him that although he's only shouting out loud for a little person that can be quite scary without him realising it.
I wouldn't say to him you agreed with his ex but would phrase it of the shouting isn't going to be good for the baby, me and its not great for your daughter either. I know it's something that you often don't realise but it would be helpful if you could try to calm it down.
I think the supernanny TV show had a few episodes with shouting parents and had solutions to resolve it. The first issue will be getting him to accept it hence filming him (maybe on the sly if he gets bad tempered)

category12 · 14/07/2018 12:57

"OK thanks for letting me know" doesn't sound like he's actually going to make a change, tho. But I guess you'll see.

Summersnake · 14/07/2018 13:12

It's harder to leave with a baby than pregnant...realistically In my humble opinion people don't change much when they reach adulthood,so he may pull his socks up for a bit...but I think how he is with his dd is how he will be with your child....unless you think he will love your child more????..,he has shown you how he parents..he's had 6 years to perfect it....if you want better for your child ,I don't think you will get it with him...even the sock of the split with his ex and only seeing his dd whenever wasn't enough to shake him up to step up...nothing will change with your child,so accept it or leave x

lifebegins50 · 14/07/2018 13:12

and calls her every name under the sun

This to me is very signifcant.If he isn't able to view her in anyway positively then he is likely to view you the same way.
Ex was married before, never insulted his ex but he was dismissive and lacking in compassion, he also failed to take any responsibility.

I was uncomfortable about it but he never denigrated her so wasn't the red flag you hear about...a few years on, no surprise but his lack of responsibility, kindness and compassion is directed at me.

How someone treats an ex, especially mum to their child is a measure of their character. I know men who has difficult Ex's yet they still treat them fairly.

My ex was a great dad to babies but once a child started to assert their own wishes he reacts badly..he is aggressive around our dc and then blames me for why they are nit keen to see him.

No one likes to be criticised but if your children are scared of you then any caring person must react.
Does he ever apologise?

Gruffalina72 · 14/07/2018 13:13

Please never have couples counselling with someone who is abusive to any degree. It goes against all professional advice and good practice.

As silly as it sounds, what is not normal often becomes your normal and once it is the norm, you adjust. It shouldn't be that way but that is the situation I've found myself in.

I found myself saying pretty much the exact same thing after I left. It didn't really hit me until then, when I was trying to readjust to life without being controlled and terrorised, that it hit me how abnormal he had made my "normal".

It's not silly at all. Have you heard the thing about boiling frogs? If you drop a frog into boiling water it will jump straight out, but if you put it into cold water and gradually heat it up to a boil it will stay there. I think this is the same.

I'm sorry if you feel attacked, and in some instances I can see some unfairly harsh comments. I can only speak for myself, but everything I have written has been out of concern for you. I've given so many of the justifications and explanations I've seen you give here, and I know how much worse it all ended up. I've seen it for others too.

I still remember sitting with the first friend to broach the idea of leaving with me - years before I ever did - and telling her how he wasn't all bad, and giving her all these examples of times when he wasn't awful or nice things he'd done, and explanations as to how the awful times were my fault, and how I would never cope on my own, and so on and on... I wish I'd been ready to act on her suggestion back then, is all.

None of us think he's dangerous until he becomes dangerous. And we can all talk about how great he can be in between the angry outbursts. Nobody would end up with an abusive man if he was a monster 24/7 from day one. That's not what abusive men look like. They don't need to use anger when we're doing what they want.

A little bit of poison in your cup of tea is still too much poison, and it's the same with abuse. There's no acceptable level of abuse in a relationship.

But I really do understand how hard it is to make sense of when you're in the midst of it. That's why I recommended the Freedom Programme. It helps you find your clarity and sanity again. They will never tell you what to do, they just want to give you information and knowledge to make your own choices. If you just want somewhere where you can weigh up what's normal and what's not, and where his behaviour sits between those two points, without anybody judging you or giving their opinion on what you should do - Freedom will give you that place. (It's not therapy, so you don't have to stand up and share things, you can just listen in silence the whole time if you want.)

I know it's not easy to just up and leave because somebody has pointed out this behaviour is abusive. I wasn't expecting you to. It took me a year from my first realisation that maybe it wasn't actually fine and normal, to leaving. (But I'm glad I did, hard as it was.)

I even had the police on my doorstep expressing concern about my safety from the man I was insistent was not dangerous (despite being scared of him) - and still I stayed. I told them there was nothing to worry about. I shut the door and blamed myself. Explained his behaviour away. Pointed out to myself all his better qualities. Squashed down all my doubts. Told my gut instinct to shut up and leave me alone.

But eventually the little voice in my head saying "but why would the police be worried if I was overreacting?" and "why did that person call him abusive?" led me to the Freedom Programme. I accepted I needed to take my blinkers off.

It still took me months more to leave. And I still got angry in the meantime with well-meaning people telling me I "had" to leave. I was so sick of being told what to do at home and being too afraid to make my own decisions, I had no tolerance for other people doing the same even if their intentions were different.

My intention was not to tell you what to do or demand you up and leave, and if it came across that way then I certainly apologise. Nor am I sitting here judging you, I just feel concern and compassion. All I was trying to do was give you the seeds for you to re-establish what is normal and what is not, so you have the best chance possible for you and your little one's futures.

5LeafClover · 14/07/2018 13:23

To follow on from what category 12 said, if 'thanks for letting me know ' was a conversation closer (rather than the start of looking for more context about what has DD had said) it's not a good sign. Really sorry OP, it sounds like your instincts are shouting for you to listen to them.

AppleCiderVinegar · 14/07/2018 13:31

OP you sound like a lovely person and a good step mum. Your post made me sad though: your DP sounds a lot like my dad, who was explosive, unreasonable, defensive and in lots of situations controlling and emotionally abusive. I didn't understand this as abuse for many years, partly because my dad didn't actually beat us up, and mainly because my DM 'managed' a lot of my DF's moods and rages, ie she kind of covered for him and sort of trained everyone to see his behaviour as 'normal'. Both me and my DB have struggled with mental health issues which I am convinced are directly related to the stresses and contradictions of our childhood.

I'm not going to give you a hard time about having a baby with this man, or even about trying to make it work. But please, for the sake of your SD and new baby, don't let this behaviour become normalised in your family. You need to face things and call him out when he acts out, and you will need to defend your child(ren) from his bullying behaviour. I think I'm hearing that this is what you are trying to do - I know it's hard so credit to you for this.

I think I would have been protected from a lot of the psychological damage of my childhood if the adults around me had been honest about how messed up my DFs behaviour was - by covering for him I internalised a lot and grew up believing it was my job not to antagonise him.

Also: Get as much help and support as you can too, and be prepared to walk away if he's unwilling to learn to do better.

eve34 · 14/07/2018 14:04

I am not sure I can add much
More. My children's dad is much the same. Shouty and self absorbed. He struggled to listen to the children reading without looking at his phone. You could see the pain it caused him

I tolerated his bad behaviour to keep the family together. Thinking if we are together I can protect the children from his shouting. And also ensure he engages positively together as a family.

He has moved on. And I genuinely wish the ow well because he won't change. He will be on his best behaviour maybe for a year or two.

I also think the children will vote with their feet in time. He makes little effort and kids already feel like they aren't really welcome.

I hope you can make him see sense and he can make the changes that need to be made.

SandyY2K · 14/07/2018 14:28

His DD has recently stated she doesn't like it when he gets angry.

You seem to be minimising his outbursts as occasional and just for 30 seconds...yet its enough that his DD has

  1. noticed
  2. is frightened

He can't even hold it in while she's there.

So he can be Mr supercharmer the rest of the time...that matters not...because on the few occasions he gets angry...he's frightened his DD to the point she doesn't want to come over anymore.

bubbles108 · 14/07/2018 14:40

I'd talk to him about it.

If he won't listen or flies into one of his brief rages, I'd suggest couple counselling.

If he won't countenance this, I'd ask him how he sees your relationship continuing if you aren't happy and he won't help you by considering changing himself and controlling his anger.

I think you'll know what to do when you get to the end of the above

Ellisandra · 14/07/2018 14:54

Neither of his children should be witness to his nasty outbursts.
I would tell him that.

And I would be very careful to keep my escape plan up to date. For example - be very careful of limiting your earning potential by not returning to work after maternity leave. Do not give him your money.

category12 · 14/07/2018 15:27

Couples counselling isn't advisable where there's abuse - and this is abusive. His child is scared of him, OP is scared to bring things up with him.

He should go into therapy or counselling regarding his angry outbursts and the effect it's having on his family and relationships.

There's nothing wrong with OP, apart from maybe a poor man-picker.

category12 · 14/07/2018 15:28

Which she could do the Freedom programme or individual counselling to help. But joint counselling would be a very bad idea.

eggncress · 14/07/2018 15:41

OP, couple counselling where abuse is involved is not adviseable because according to research the abuser manipulates the therapist against you and you would be seen to be at fault, not him!

FiestaThenSiesta · 15/07/2018 01:05

That’s the great thing about your pregnancy. You can say to him, you know what? Now that I’m pregnant and I’m picturing you doing the same thing to my child... like FUCK that will happen. You’ve got x weeks to sort out your shite because I’m not going to let you fuck up with this unborn child the way I’ve been watching you fuck up with your daughter.

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