Passive vs aggressive parenting

[greatbighillofhope]

We have 2 dc, one has autism and adhd. I guess if we were just parenting the one NT child these issues wouldn’t crop up so much, but autism and adhd both present a LOT of extra parenting challenges. dh and I have always had very differing styles- he goes from one extreme of being silly and clown-like to being authoritarian Victorian father, passing ‘because I said so’ type edicts. By contrast, I am generally very steady but have a huge problem in setting boundaries and am easily manipulated. 90% of the time I feel I have to acquiesce to dh’s rules just because he shouts the loudest. The only time I put my foot down is when I am scared things will escalate.
Today dc2’s teacher told me that dc2 is working on assertive communication at school. He’s doing well with the theory in lessons but struggling to apply it in real life. In practice he either bottles his feelings up or explodes (sometimes one then the other). It seemed so obvious to me that dh and I are modelling only those two options for expressing yourself and never, ever modelling assertive communication. So, I thought to myself, why don’t we have a family project where we all try to support one another to communicate assertively. I printed some child friendly activity sheets out to discuss with dh but was pretty much immediately shouted down. I was annoyed, particularly because I asked him what it was about what I had suggested that he didn’t like, but he hadn’t listened long enough to even understand what I was suggesting so couldn’t answer!!! He said that I was always starting on ‘projects’ and why couldn’t I just accept things as they were. We haven’t really spoken for the rest of the evening.
So, already I’ve failed at the first hurdle, I can’t even assert myself enough to have an conversation about assertiveness.

He feels there is nothing wrong with how he handles things, thinks your approach doesnt work, and then you come to him with sheets targetted at children suggesting he improve his communication.
Does that sum it up?
If so hes probably just being defensive. You telling him about his approach might be a bit too close for comfort. He needs to here it from someone else if hes going to take it on board. What about suggesting you both do a parent as partners course instead? Then he will hear from proffesionals and other adults in the same boat.

Yes, I guess you are right (although I didn’t mention the sheets). I think he believes that if I was as authoritarian as he is then there would be no problem. I have worked hard to do this but I feel like it’s made the dc’s behaviour even worse and they’re certainly a lot less happy. I have suggested courses and family counselling many times but he doesn’t see the point.
Something has to change though because I can’t continue to live in a war zone much longer. Dc1 is getting more and more resentful and constantly picking fights with dc2. The fights are often very violent and I’m scared that someone will get seriously injured. Dc2 is emotionally volatile at the best of times, as well as frequently physically violent, sometimes towards me too. I am scared to set boundaries with him because he always screams, shouts and swears at me when I do and will also get physical. We are all permanently stressed and have been for years.

Dh is very sensitive to critism and does get defensive even about small things. Also, a few days ago he was talking about how he was made to feel by his parents as a child (criticised and put down) and that he didn’t want to repeat the same mistakes. I think he was angling for me to reassure him that he isn’t repeating it but I couldn’t do that as I feel that he is unnecessarily negative with them both and is very critical and sometimes hurtful. Saying that a behaviour is wrong is good, saying someone is a bad person is not so good.
I repeatedly acknowledge my shortcomings as a parent (and a person) and like I say am working really hard to change, this was more about me than about him.
The thing is, I struggle to put in a boundary about anything. For example, I have always told him that I will never, under any circumstances, agree with smacking. Sometimes he loses it and does hurt the children. I understand that we all make mistakes but I won’t support that. He knows that is a boundary for me but he doesn’t respect it. Instead it usually ends in an argument with him saying I’m undermining him.
Ironically, he contradicts me really frequently and it is clear to the dc that he has very little respect for my opinion. So of course, they don’t respect my opinion either. I try not to express one as much as possible because it’s better to pretend you don’t mind than to be disregarded.
I don’t want to make dh sound bad at all, he really does have many wonderful qualities and I do genuinely believe he has our family’s best interests at heart. I want to make this work but I’m frustrated that I’m constantly trying to make things better and making very little progress. dh says to just accept things as they are but I don’t want to live like this.

Sometimes he loses it and does hurt the children.
He really needs to accept that he has some learning to do on parenting. Smacking as a form of discipline is no longer considered ok by most, but hitting them because 'he loses it's, i.e., because he gets so angry he wants to, is a much worse issue than a tap on the hand because a toddler tries to grab the kettle and it's dangerous for them .
All that aside, he needs to understand that the school has flagged a problem with your DCs ability to express his emotions , and that you ALL need to help DS. Wait for him to calm down if he flounces off, and calmly ask him to resume the conversation. Point out gently that his reaction is the kind of pattern you all have, that you all could improve on, to help your DS.

Maybe putting it all in a letter.
Things often get lost in discussion especially if hes sensitive to criticism anything you day will be considered to be a personal attack even when it isnt and the conversation will turn into something else.

It does sound like you both need individual counselling to deal with your own reactions before attempting family therapy.

Maybe if you do counselling by yourself he might follow. Maybe a letter ending with a statement like I cant live like this im getting counselling to change things for me.

Even if he doesnt at least you will be getting the help you need to deal with him and the children. Just because he is okay with the life you have doesnt mean you have to be.

Sometimes he loses it and does hurt the children.
I think he needs to know you're serious about this boundary because it doesn't look like you have been.

But if he's abusing the children and you are already seeing that impact how they treat each other (you describe this as very violent to the point you are worried about serious injury) then you have a major DH problem.

He sounds like an abusive bully. He is bullying you and the children. I suggest you call some helplines (nspcc, Women’s aid) and maybe get some counselling, get the advice and support you need to start protecting yourself and your children.

You might think this is an extreme response but he is hitting your children. You know they are unhappy.

If I knew you and your children I’d be calling nspcc and asking whether a social services referral might be appropriate. You (as a family) need support and he needs reigning in, urgently.

I have tried letters in the past but even when I try to be extremely diplomatic he gets really annoyed by it. I have also had individual counselling in the past which has helped but essentially I still face the same problem. I find conflict very difficult and people easily manipulate me by getting emotional whenever I try to express myself or set a boundary. I know it’s co-dependency.
He also has started counselling quite recently (hence the conversation about his parents) but disturbingly it seems to have made him less inclined to listen to my opinion and to talk properly. Its like going back a few years when things were really bad and I had to say things must change or it’s over between us- one boundary that was respected. Back then he went to a men’s group and that did help change his behaviour, but it feels like it’s slipping back into the old ways now.

Sometimes he loses it and does hurt the children

He hits your children OP? One of whom has ASD and ADHD? Why is he still there?

He shouts, he won’t consider anyone else’s opinion, he tells your children they’re bad people and he hits them.

You don’t need to get him to change, you need to get him the fuck away from you and your children.

Bloody hell hitting and bawling and screaming at a NT is abuse, but doing it to a child with ASD? He’d get lifted on the spot, that’s abuse of disabled child.

Why haven’t you left? Does he hurt you too?

Him hurting his children cannot be excused. Is it really surprising that they are violent towards each other?

I agree with a pp that writing it all down in a letter/email might be a good idea as it will give him a chance to absorb it all without feeling that he has to immediately defend himself. Also having counselling on your own and perhaps attending a parenting course might help with your own issues, and perhaps give you some ideas on how to deal with him and (at least) minimise the impact of his behaviour.

Ultimately, though your problems are with him and I think you are going to have a long, hard battle here in trying to get him to see what he is doing and the effect that it's having on your dc. It's a battle that you definitely have to fight though, because his behaviour is incredibly damaging.

Good luck.

This is probably going to be harsh but i think you and your husband are both at fault and in combination are worse than the sum of your parts. Your husband is authoritarian, aggressive and violent towards the kids. I don't care what his issues are or what the root causes, that is unacceptable. You are too soft and struggle to set boundaries. You sound like you're afraid of them whereas they're probably terrified of their dad. I expect the poor kids don't know if they're coming or going.

Kids need to know very clearly where the lines are and should be reminded of them when they come close to crossing them. They are kids though and parents need to appreciate that sometimes they will cross a line. The response to that should be calm, not angry and violent. A good parent is a coach, not a sergeant major or a bully. Good parents work as a team. For all your assertions thst he is a good husband and father, I don't see it. Rather, I see worrying signs thst he is abusing both you and the kids.

Your husband has some good qualities.

But...
He bullies you.
He bullies your kids.
He is excessively critical.
He hits your children.
He thinks he is right, and that you should also bully your children.
He has been brought up like this, leading him to think this is all ok.

Well, if things stay as they are you will raise 2 more bullies, who resent both you and your husband. They will remember that you didn't stop their dad from hitting them.

I'd say it's ultimatum time - no more hitting, no more criticising, no more bullying, family counselling. If he can't do that, you leave, you save your children. They can't do it. You can,

Sorry, just seen your update that you've tried writing it down before.

I would think seriously about leaving him, temporarily at least. This behaviour will be causing all sorts of problems for your dc.

I try not to express one as much as possible because it’s better to pretend you don’t mind than to be disregarded.

even when I try to be extremely diplomatic he gets really annoyed

He also has started counselling quite recently (hence the conversation about his parents) but disturbingly it seems to have made him less inclined to listen to my opinion

Your most important problem here, OP, is your marriage, which is in no ways a partnership. You will try to improve yourself but fail, because instead of having a supportive husband who takes an interest in you and your thoughts, you have a controlling and manipulative bully who is only interested in you knowing your place.

Consider separating and co-parenting that way. The DCs would not see the damaging rolls modelling of poor relationships, which is a huge positive. Would you feel confident with him parenting without you around? That would be a concern to look into.

I really think leaving is the best option here and that is because there is really no partnership to stay for.

Then it looks like the counselling you had finished too soon and you would benefit from returning to deal with the issue at hand.
You said before that he refused counselling but now say he is having counselling what changed?

I picked out those parts of your posts, OP, because they show a man whose principal aim is to shut you up. Don't like the little woman expressing an opinion? Get annoyed, that usually works. It's she trying to influence the way things work in the household? How very dare she. Never mind, keep going as you always do and just ignore her. Can you see this is what he's doing?

The effect of the counselling you mentioned is well known for abusive people. They already feel that they are more important than the rest of their family, so the way counselling works only confirms that. You need to listen to me and see how important my opinions are... just like my counsellor does. Don't talk to me about your needs... My counsellor never does. See?

And (final post for now!) don't be too hard on yourself about not being able to set boundaries. I found it impossible before I left my similarly controlling and manipulative partner. Now, I'm a pro and my DCs are much happier.

Of course you find it difficult, because your main aim is to find a peaceful solution, whereas his is to get his own way. Of course you find yourself backing down under those conditions. The alternative would be to threaten leaving, as that's the only thing that seems to get him to listen. But who can build a successful relationship when you have to do that to be heard? (That was the insight that enabled me to leave in the end.)

I strongly recommend the book how yo talk so kids will listen for alternative ways to discipline

Your husband is an abusive bully whose behaviour is so extreme you're afraid to even show you have your own opinions.

No wonder your children are desperately unhappy and copying his behaviour.

The reason you can't change this situation no matter how hard you try is because your husband does not want it to change. This works for him - he has all the power and control and he is not prepared to give it up.

It will never change as long as you stay. Www.freedomprogramme.co.uk

It doesn't matter that he has some good qualities - there is no such thing as monsters, even abusive men have good qualities. But that does not make their abuse acceptable or any less abhorrent. Surely it's worse that he's capable of behaving better but chooses to be an abusive bully instead.

And I really don't care if you want to label him hitting your children as "smacking". It is physical violence. If he did it to you would we call it "smacking"? No. It would be called assault. Because it is.

Who is going to protect your children if you won't? They are children. Small, vulnerable, defenceless children. The adults in their life are supposed to protect them, not assault them.

One parent assaults them while the other stands by and lets it happen. There is nobody there to protect them or even to tell them they don't deserve to be hurt.

Have you thought about how horrific that must be from their side? What they're learning from that? How frightened and alone they must feel in your war zone of a home?

Gruffalina, you replied to me on a previous thread of mine (where I was wondering how to stop this sort of thing happening in all my relationships/friendships/work) and you suggested some good resources about self esteem which I’ve looked into so thank you.
Dh made really good progress when he went on the course about 5 years ago but I didn’t go on a course, and my co-dependency and passivity persists no matter how hard I try. Despite reading a million books, watching videos, doing Yoga, meditating, listening to hypnosis on YouTube plus the therapy, I can’t seem to actually express myself assertively in any stressful situation. As soon as I try to step up in a logical and balanced way, and I get a negative response, my inner emotional reaction (rarely expressed) is overwhelming, telling me to stop it and get out of this situation immediately. It’s so hard to over-ride that programming.
Because of this it’s almost like I am creating a situation where dh is baited into old behaviours. Eg he sees the children running rings around me and gets annoyed with them for it and annoyed with me for not stepping up and being a parent. I can see how frustrating it must be for him, it is for me too. He loses his temper only very rarely despite the high level of stress.
I can also see that between us we are damaging the children and a million times over I just wish I had never existed and then they wouldn’t either and I wouldn’t be responsible for two more fucked up people in the world destined to live a life of quiet desolation like mine.

Because of this it’s almost like I am creating a situation where dh is baited into old behaviours

No. No, no, no. This is not your fault, he is choosing to hurt your children.

Does he hit other people? Folk who cut him off while driving? Or push in front in a queue? I bet he doesn’t.

Thank you everyone.
Nellia, he refused family/couples counselling, I have gone for counselling on my own for a long while. I’m not sure why he decided to start himself now, I thought it would help, maybe not.

I feel like I am being reasonable, logical, balanced and considerate to other people all the time and I’m very willing to take on board critsism but it seems they all see that as a sign of weakness.
I also have read an enormous library of books/info on psychology, co-dependency, self help, parenting etc. It seems people can feel criticised or threatened by me making suggestions and go on the attack. Between those mechanisms it’s like a vicious circle.

I feel like I am being reasonable, logical, balanced and considerate to other people all the time and I’m very willing to take on board critsism but it seems they all see that as a sign of weakness

I see that a sign of strength OP. The only ones threatened by it are the ones who want control over you.

The more you post, the more it sounds like your marriage is unsalvagable because you are the only one trying. And he’s hurting your children, not because he can’t control himself, but because he’s choosing to exert his power and control over little kids that don’t have a choice.

You are literally the only person who can change this, for them and for you.

But please, please believe that his behaviour, his abuse, is NOT your fault. Any more than it’s your children’s fault.

He is making these choices, because he knows he can get away with it. Not you, nothing you do or say justifies this.

Soddingunicorns, I want trying to excuse the hitting (maybe I was) I know there really isn’t an excuse.
Charlotte, he goes away for a few days next week so I can think about how I’d manage on my own, I’m really not sure, it will be very hard work parenting dc2 alone.
You are right about me always trying to find a peaceful and positive solution. It seems that I am surrounded by people who’s only motivation is to preserve their own construct of reality (I am right: you are wrong) at any cost. For instance, the one and only time that I, very gently and reasonably, told my mum that I was upset by a comment she had made she went absolutely mad in response and turned it into a 6 month emotional ordeal. She literally made herself ill and I was cast as the horrible daughter who was trying to hurt her just because I’d for once expressed how I felt. I’d never done it before because I knew that would be her reaction. Our relationship hasn’t really recovered and probably never will.

To be honest I shouldn’t really be rabbiting about the hitting, because it’s all as damaging. The shouting and overreaction is as scary and intimidating to a child.

It sounds like your Mum has given you a really skewed view of what is acceptable and how you should be treated. I’m sorry you’ve had such a hard time

Throughout the whole thing with my mum I did everything I could to remain open minded and tried so many times to reasonably and logically talk through it with her and to acknowledge her version of events. I kept saying that it needn’t harm our relationship and that communicating honestly could only strengthen it but she refused to listen. Every single time she would get massively emotional and bring in a million irrelevant points and try to derail the conversation. So frustrating.