mother/daughter relationship problems

[Findingmywayeveryday]

I am the mother and I’m scared I am toxic and don’t know how to put anything right.

I have 2 girls and one is 15/16. I’m a single mother and there is a divide in my family between my ex and one DD and myself and the other DD. Each parent believes the other treats their favoured child better than the other and it causes a lot of tension. I’ve raised the children by myself for many years and do 90% of everything for them on my own.

Eldest DD1 was a very very difficult toddler, much more than I was prepared and equipped for. I had PND after DD2 which did not help DD1.

She has been violent to me from a young age and I have tried multiple agencies to try find help and support and to try get us communicating better. She has not wanted to engage with one single element of any of this numerous counsellors and now basically views this as me forcing her to get help because she has ‘something wrong’ with her. A psychologist and a primary school teacher told me she was ‘emotionally immature’ when she was about 6 years old, which I think meant behind her peers. She scores very high on ADHD testing and I know she has a lot of anxiety (which I think fuels her anger).

She ties herself in knots with lies, rewrites all history and I sometimes wonder if she is gaslighting me because things very quickly fall down a rabbit hole into insanity and I don’t have this happen in any other area of my life, like Work, DD2 or friends so it is confusing and disorientating and there is never any way out. The madness will begin and the more I try to unravel it, the worse I make it, I say and do things in total frustration (as does she) and nothing is ever resolved. It just disappears until next time. I am also not allowed to eat around her. I do shout and get angry and I think I am always very negative about her. I will question something she will tell me in a way I never do DD2 because DD1 has told me so many lies and I don’t trust her. I reprimand her A LOT

She views any attempt at me challenging or addressing her behaviour as controlling and cruel. She is in trouble at school a lot and her friendships are unstable.

She has decided to completely shut me out or her life now, except when she wants something. I have become very tired of the pushing and pulling and have started to care less about trying to help her and more about how to avoid her/this scenario. I can’t work out if she needs/wants my attention and am really tired of giving love and affection for it to be constantly repeatedly rejected and disrespected. I try to do nice things for her in other ways but we seem to have reached the point where I dislike her behaviour so much she probably does believe I dislike HER. I don’t - HER is very lovely, but this other side of her is dreadful and I struggle to give unconditional love.

I feel desperate like I am giving up on my child. She doesn’t want me, like me or love me she’s made it clear she’s just trapped with me and wants to punish me for how she is feeling - but won’t really talk about how she feels. I suspect it is that she accuses me of saying there is something wrong with her, something bad but part of me is scared there IS, and that we should tackle it before things get much worse.

Am i a bad mother? Have I rejected my child? Have I done enough? Should I pursue her mental health help even if she doesn’t want it or believe it? What if medication could help her? What if I am just imagining this and I am the cause and it’s my bad parenting? How do I put that right?

I know I cant expect anyone to give me any answers but maybe some guidances?

You give the impression that you never bonded properly with her, especially as you go all the way back to your PND. How old was she when you had another child? You do give the impression you are scapegoating her.

Sounds like an attachment disorder.
Google NVR and see if you can find a good therapist. It's like a miracle if you embrace the process.

So sorry you’re going through this op I don’t have a great deal of advice

She was only 2, but the behavioural problems (including breath-holding) started before I had my 2nd baby.

My own opinion of our bonding was that it was brilliant after birth and up until she was about 18 months old. I was SAHM and she was the first grandchild and lavished with a lot of attention. She talked early and i was very happy - no depression although we had some money problems.

When DD2 came it did essentially break down the relationship with their father, and he was abusive to me. DD2 has no bonding with him but DD1 is very close with him

I’m in 2 minds over what I think. One concern she has an underlying mental health problem. The other is that I do and don’t realise and have done this to her. I do actually believe she has a very nice loving personality. I tell her I love her constantly and try to find ways to show her. She does not want this anymore and is rejecting me. I think I just need to make sure she is ok and put my own feelings to the back but I have found that very very hard to do

Dear Findingmywayeveryday, I think you have probably the best mother you could under the circumstances. It sounds so very difficult. I thnk it's a very good sign that you are questioning yourself, although it must be so painful.

Mother/daughter relationships can be very complicated. I do believe that girls need their mum, especially as they get older. But pain and hurt can sadly take up so much space that there is no room for a healthy relationship.

I expect your PND affected her and your relationship to her? What kind of relationship does she have to her dad? I had a very difficult relationship with my DM as a teen, but thankfully I had a good relationship to my DF, and that really helped. I have a good relationship with my DM now, but it's taken most of my adult life to get there (I'm 45). I work really hard to have a good relationship with my own DD (13), but it's hard!

Have you had any counselling/professional help yourself? It sounds to me like the two of you are stuck in a destructive pattern? I think counselling could help you, you sound like you find it hard to unravel what's going on.

(why can't you eat around her?)

Be careful not to place adult behaviour expectations on your daughter. The way you are speaking is as if you are blaming the 2 year old for acting in a malicious adult way.

Holding their breath? It’s what kids do. They don’t know any better. Their minds are unformed. They aren’t adults.

She was two TWO when she went from centre of attention to a new sister, an abusive household and mother who was suffering. She was not an adult who could possibly understand what is going on or rationalise her behaviour.

A couple of times inyou post it came across as you seeing it like she was doing it on purpose. She wasn’t. She was young, her world was changing and she acted appropriately.

Make sure you don’t hold grudges for that.

Also, she is not ONLY 15/16. Is is a teenager with all the hormones, rewiring of the brain and all the other crap that goes with it.

But she is not an adult. Try and remember that when you deal with her.

I was very young when I had my DC and I have tried to explain things and apologise when she has opened up to me.

Things she seems to believe that I cannot seem to rectify:

1. That she was to blame for ex and I breaking up. She was not but I can’t tell her the whole truth because I don’t think she would like to hear about her dad being abusive, wouldn’t believe me and would accuse me of lying. Anyway I don’t want to hurt her and she idolises him. I do want to protect her. But she does remember her behaviour being an issue - I had one way of discipline and he had another more favourable way. So it’s bad cop/good cop. Obvs she prefers good cop.

1. That I love her sister more. I do not but we seem to have a much calmer well aligned relationship and that is the crux. DD2 is an introvert and very shy. DD1 sees any help I may give DD2 as smothering/babying her

1. That I don’t love DD1. This goes hand in hand with me trying to teach/discipline her over the years and she thinks they are related. She doesn’t understand me trying to keep her safe, on the right track (school), in a routine where I am the parent and certain rules as love. She sees them as control and abuse. I’ve tried modelling good behaviours but I haven’t done a good job at this all the time (like how to deal with anger). I’ve had to work hard to keep her in school and some of this probably is tough love for her own good. Yes I’m sure she would be happier out of school - she HATES School but that isn’t really in her best interests. I’ve found it hard to be a loving disciplinarian - seen as ex is no help to me at all

It has been difficult for me to keep viewing her a young child, many behaviours are very much like her father (I can’t eat around her as apparently I am revolting and make her feel sick) and things can go so far and above what I ever expected a child would do or say to a parent, I’m just so far out of my zone I am completely lost. I have lost all control as a parent so I often do not feel like I am dealing with my own child, and I suppose I have felt that way for a long time. I have not been well equipped for the behaviours - biting, hitting type violence and the breath holding went hand in hand with hours and hours of rage-crying where nothing I could say or do would help. I was expecting children to cry when I had them but this could sometimes be a whole day or night with this angry rage-crying and a lot of violence. I would try to protect the baby from the toddler and I think that is where it really began, perhaps me showing DD1 that the baby was more precious?

I just feel really alone. Ex does not help often because he doesn’t see any of this. If I ask for help or support he gives lip service to me but just reinforces to DD1 that mum is ineffectual, unfair, mean etc

I’ve had a couple of bouts of depression over the years but I have worked hard to get through them although I am sure they have had a bad effect, I also had a health problem last year that meant DD1 had to step up in terms of helping around the house more and this did not help. I had no one else to ask but the pressure on her was too much

She was only 2, but the behavioural problems (including breath-holding) started before I had my 2nd baby.

Are you still holding this against her? She was under 2, breath holding is not bad behaviour. I'm sure she was a difficult child, more difficult than your dd2 but nothing you have said has made her seem like a paticularly out of controll child, just a deeply unhappy one.
Honestly this is really sad but I dont know how much you can do now, shes 16 and if shes not interested in sorting it out she will soon be able to move out and cut all contact with you. This really is your last chance to fix your relationship with your daughter.

What do you do with her now that is fun and just her?

Movies, spa days, outings? Do you have any interaction with her outside of school/discipline etc.

If she thinks you love dd2 more, think about what you do outside of discipline. Do you go have fun with dd2 more?

What are her interests that you could take her to and spend time with her doing ? Start conversations about that type of thing might help.

No I was using it as context to the question someone asked me about how old she was when I had my 2nd child. The behaviours did not start overnight when I had a 2nd baby, she was a frustrated child earlier than that and one of the behaviours that was hard to deal with was breath holding. For which she ended up in hospital when she would hit her head when she fainted and once when she passed out not breathing at all for a few minutes and we couldn’t get her to breath again and We called 999. I don’t know if this is context for anything else other than background of her early developmental years and when I began to be concerned about it, and struggled to handle it. No one is blaming my DD or saying she had any control over her behaviours I can clearly see she does not have much to any control at all and I feel quite sorry for her for that because it is not nice for her and clearly has a detrimental effect on her whole life. She knows about some behaviours either as she remembers them or it has been given as history during assessments.

I am just giving a background not blame (see above). i want to work out what to do. How to do it. If I can save anything between us. If I can help. If I should give up. What mistakes have I made.

I invite DD1 to do things with me alone frequently and she will not always reject me - she will come with me (movie, shopping etc) but will behave awfully towards me in some kind of seeing how far she can push me way. I took her out last weekend. I did get upset when she was really really horrible and this makes her angry I get upset. I persevered and tried to put that behind us. Took her out to eat and shopping. By the end she was back in a much more reasonable lovely mood, and it was nice. Like a little bit of sun shining on you in a storm. It must be exhausting to be her, to keep up this anger all the time I don’t know how she does it.

I try to interact with her, maybe send her something funny but she will ignore it but feels jealous if DD2 and I do the same.

I’m kind to her friends, encourage her to see them and do things with them. I try to help with school things. I take them on holidays of their choice. All the normal things.

What about when she was 6-12, before puberty? Did she react the same then?

Also as context: a neighbour reported us to SS when she was a toddler over the rage-screaming. Luckily my health visitor had been a frequent witness to these and was very supportive to all of us. She invested a lot of time into me too trying to give support and I took everything I was offered.

Re above question: When she was about 8 it became the worst it has ever been and I was quite frightened of betting hit or something thrown at me and not being able to de-escalate the situation and keep everyone safe. I went to doctor and asked for help. We were sent to CAMHS for help. Things calmed down for a while but came back when she was about 13. Now it’s back to how it was again, like a cycle

Hi, sorry to read that you are having a rough time. I agree with lots of what previous posters have said. I just wanted to comment to offer you a book recommendation www.amazon.com/Peaceful-Parent-Happy-Kids-Connecting/dp/0399160280?tag=mumsnetforum-21. I understand that you might feel that, as your DD is older these techniques might not work with her. And they might well not, but they will help you with your reactions to the situations that arise with her, and maybe give a bit of insight into your own behaviour. I know that was my case for sure; I understood with the book that my reactions to difficult behaviours had a lot to do with how I was parented and disciplined, and that I was trying to control my child and couldn’t stand the defiance, taking it very personally.

Just a suggestion, but it’s easy reading, non judgmental and might help you to learn how to better diffuse the situations. One of my favourite go tos now (especially in situations like you saying you say things out of frustration) is “I’m feeling v angry / frustrated/ wound up right now. Let’s take some space to cool off, but I want to work through this with you later when we have both had chance to cool down. It’s important to me that we can work through this together to find a solution”

Sending hugs

Thanks I am going to buy it right now. I know I can do better it’s just hard to see how at the time. Sounds like I need it

I end up feeling outraged inside that I have sacrifed/worked hard with the DC at the forefront of everything, given up so much, tried and cried and it can all feel for nothing. Or it’s not appreciated or even respected. I know what my own triggers are - throwing/trashing things is so disrespectful. Hitting me is disempowering. When she initiates a ‘showdown’ and then controls it, it feels like my emotions are being controlled and I am not allowed them either (I need to learn how to manage my own emotions).

I’ve ended up trying to be so open emotionally, because I grew up in a family full of secrets where your emotions didn’t matter that it’s just become nothing BUT emotions flying around with no one really listening

It sounds like you are a loving mother doing her best. Not sure what to suggest but don't lose sight of that. Not sure about suggestions but sometimes children/teenagers are just difficult and no amount of blaming yourself will help that. Better advice will be on its way I am sure.

It sounds like you've got into a destructive pattern where your love for your daughter is genuinely conditional (you resent her massively compared to your other DD). Your DD is certainly astute enough to recognise this and act up / shut down in ways that test your boundaries or protect hers as she must feel incredibly rejected. Whose fault is this? In the end, it doesn't matter - but as the adult you need to take action.

I wonder if family therapy would be an option, even including your other DD who is the "golden child" to your DD1's "scapegoat"? It's worrying that you see your DD1 as being like her father. I think you need to look past whose is the mental health problem and get professional support in place to behave differently around each other.

We have been to family therapy with just DD1 and I. Her DF does not want to engage and DD2 and DD1 do not actually have a bad relationship which is a huge relief to me. Yes it’s me who is the problem here. Family therapy was about learning how to communicate and listen to each other. DD1 did not like therapy for herself so didn’t engage and it ended up feeling like right now - me trying to do all the work, fix stuff, try find reasons, try find solutions and it didn’t work very well.

In DD1’s defence I think it has been satisfying for ex to further the rift and have DD1 on his side because he has no bond with DD2 and I feel like the headless chicken trying to get everyone to get along. Long and the short - it’s easier to blame me for his no bond and DD2 rejecting him than look at himself. He has helped reinforce this idea with DD1 that there are favourites. Except the trust issues with DD1 (for her own safety) both DC have the same rules, the same boundaries in our home. DD2 just follows them and doesn’t challenge them very often. It doesn’t make her a better child just different. She gets the least attention by far. That doesn’t seem fair to me either.

It is not conditional that is not what I have been trying to explore, but that I have been doing everything wrong with how I deal with these situations and have tired myself out mentally. I need to learn how to manage my own emotions. But what if I am overlooking something serious and stuck on all the little details and her mental health is suffering and I don’t get her help?

I want nothing but the best for her even if it means she rejects me. Is that not unconditional love? I am confused. I don’t want to be rejected by her obviously but if I am i won’t stop loving her, but I may have to draw back, if it is what she wants or needs. I want her to be happy I want her to be safe. I want her to know she is loved. But I found myself lost and out of ways to show her and make good changes

I was angry when I wrote the first post this morning and I don’t think I truely meant a lot of what I said on reflection. I probably felt it in that moment but don’t feel it now.

What did the therapist advise at the end of your joint therapy? Did they have any opinion about a MH diagnosis for your DD1? You must have got some tools from it even if your DD1 didn't engage very deeply. Would it be any use going back to these?

Your DD only has access to your love through your behaviour - you might feel a well of unconditional love inside but due to communication difficulties this may not be getting through. (You mentioned that your interactions can be very punitive).

Can you / have you tried the love bombing technique? It sounds like trust has broken down and you'd need to try to suspend your reactive emotions entirely for quite a long time (i.e. she's pushed me away so she mustn't love me).

Walking away from a situation such as her shouting or hitting you is you taking control. Ultimately you cannot control HER behaviour, remember, only she can do that.

She’s a teenager and full of hormones etc. There maybe attachment issues but it might be the age old ‘any attention is good attention’ and it’s the only way she knows how.

Have you spoken to social services? They maybe able to help. My friend is going through something similar and they have been incredibly helpful

Probably typical of the ‘system’ we got passed from counsellor to counsellor last time never seeing the same person twice. DD liked the assessment woman who told me about the high ADHD score as she was just there to listen and no strategies given. The last time we went DD wouldn’t speak or answer questions and the therapist said that she was leaving next week and wasn’t sure when we would get seen again and I said to her DD had not been able to gain any confidence in a therapist or learn to trust them, she responded we had needed to listen to each other more and she didn’t believe in labelling children when I questioned whether the ADHD references has any relevance. DD didn’t want to keep going and i didn’t want to keep forcing her.

When she was 8 she was given the diagnosis of GAD.

I did get lots of tools but things have broken down beyond that again. From early on I have used love bombing. I honestly don’t know if this helps or not it is hard to tell. I think it’s confusing and I might not do it correctly as it all becomes confused with boundaries around reasonable breaking of basic rules - letting go of some of the more petty things is totally ok. But I think she was confused and felt more rejected when she broke serious rules and I had to discipline her.

She hit me a few days ago and I couldn’t walk away as I was driving. It’s things like that that throw a curveball

What could social services do to help? School have been very patient and good. They too can see that she’s a good person and is acting out. She’s so rude to them too though. I have tried everything to keep her in school

Findingmywayeveryday, if problems were simple, they would be easy to solve!

I think your DDs problems are a combination of many factors.

I suspect that your ex badmouthing you has had a really bad effect on your DD. You say that she idolises him. That he has brainwashed her into believing that your DD2 is your favourite. That you can't eat in front of her as you are "revolting" - this is your ex saying this, isn't it? I really admire you for not wanting this to be the whole problem and for seeing beyond that which you can't control, but I really think that what your ex did has had been detrimental to a child that was already difficult. Would it make sense to say that your DD is using you as a scapegoat, that she lets out all of her aggression on you? That your ex has made her believe that you are not worthy of anything else? My DM would badmouth my dad in the extreme, but I was an older teenager when they split up, so I wasn't as impressionabe as your DD, so it had the opposite effect - I resented her for it. Your DD resents you because your ex has told her to from a young age.

I think that there has been a power struggle between your and your DD, one where she wins when she is violent. I think this power struggle started very early on.

I appreciate that you have tried to have emotions out in the open, but I think this has been too much for your DD. I think it has meant that what most people just think in their heads, she acts out. It sounds like she has absolutely no control of her own reactions. She must be so unhappy, but she obviously does not know how to stop this pattern.