mother/daughter relationship problems

[Findingmywayeveryday]

I am the mother and I’m scared I am toxic and don’t know how to put anything right.

I have 2 girls and one is 15/16. I’m a single mother and there is a divide in my family between my ex and one DD and myself and the other DD. Each parent believes the other treats their favoured child better than the other and it causes a lot of tension. I’ve raised the children by myself for many years and do 90% of everything for them on my own.

Eldest DD1 was a very very difficult toddler, much more than I was prepared and equipped for. I had PND after DD2 which did not help DD1.

She has been violent to me from a young age and I have tried multiple agencies to try find help and support and to try get us communicating better. She has not wanted to engage with one single element of any of this numerous counsellors and now basically views this as me forcing her to get help because she has ‘something wrong’ with her. A psychologist and a primary school teacher told me she was ‘emotionally immature’ when she was about 6 years old, which I think meant behind her peers. She scores very high on ADHD testing and I know she has a lot of anxiety (which I think fuels her anger).

She ties herself in knots with lies, rewrites all history and I sometimes wonder if she is gaslighting me because things very quickly fall down a rabbit hole into insanity and I don’t have this happen in any other area of my life, like Work, DD2 or friends so it is confusing and disorientating and there is never any way out. The madness will begin and the more I try to unravel it, the worse I make it, I say and do things in total frustration (as does she) and nothing is ever resolved. It just disappears until next time. I am also not allowed to eat around her. I do shout and get angry and I think I am always very negative about her. I will question something she will tell me in a way I never do DD2 because DD1 has told me so many lies and I don’t trust her. I reprimand her A LOT

She views any attempt at me challenging or addressing her behaviour as controlling and cruel. She is in trouble at school a lot and her friendships are unstable.

She has decided to completely shut me out or her life now, except when she wants something. I have become very tired of the pushing and pulling and have started to care less about trying to help her and more about how to avoid her/this scenario. I can’t work out if she needs/wants my attention and am really tired of giving love and affection for it to be constantly repeatedly rejected and disrespected. I try to do nice things for her in other ways but we seem to have reached the point where I dislike her behaviour so much she probably does believe I dislike HER. I don’t - HER is very lovely, but this other side of her is dreadful and I struggle to give unconditional love.

I feel desperate like I am giving up on my child. She doesn’t want me, like me or love me she’s made it clear she’s just trapped with me and wants to punish me for how she is feeling - but won’t really talk about how she feels. I suspect it is that she accuses me of saying there is something wrong with her, something bad but part of me is scared there IS, and that we should tackle it before things get much worse.

Am i a bad mother? Have I rejected my child? Have I done enough? Should I pursue her mental health help even if she doesn’t want it or believe it? What if medication could help her? What if I am just imagining this and I am the cause and it’s my bad parenting? How do I put that right?

I know I cant expect anyone to give me any answers but maybe some guidances?

A few posts back you said that she has some of her Dad's traits. This can be a bit of a banana skin, where the Dad has gone and you have not had a good relationship with him. Well done you for not slagging him off and respecting her devotion to him - that is very hard indeed to do!!!

I am sure you try not to hold it against her when she seems to behave like your ex but it is very hard I know. Important to try and remember that she is her own person. My Mum was very negative towards my Dad, and I often felt that the fact that I shared his interests and talents was part of why we did not get on well. She found it impossible not to belittle or ignore (or subtly undermine) my achievements in the same areas as my Dad. "Oh are you playing that piano again?" - ouch!

I have several DDs, now grown with families of their own, and there were times in the teens when I knew that they found me an irritant and an embarrassment - that is part of what we are for when they are that age! I think the fact that she does sometimes go out with you is brilliant and remarkable, even if it does not always go well. Mine would not have been seen dead with me at that age!!! They are all great now and we get on well, I am happy to say.

When it comes to girls of that age, most of us struggle and just have to muddle through as best we can. Don't be too hard on yourself.

Sometimes that is exactly how I feel. If I look back I am not sure whether I have twisted it to this agenda. When DD2 arrived ex was very much of the mindset that DD1 was his, and he would take charge with her but the baby was mine to deal with. DD2 was fractious and poorly as a small baby and I was depressed. I think ex didn’t do this on purpose, he thought he was helping me by taking 2yoDD1 off my hands. But then she didn’t want me and always wanted him, didn’t like my normal rules and preferred his soft rules.

He will do anything for a quiet life. He doesn’t believe in talking about your emotions. I think this is damaging so I have always encouraged open-ness but it’s very much just crazy emotions now.

DD1’s first reaction to almost any upset will be to call her dad. To tell him what mum has ‘done’. That he agrees with her that I treat her badly. She isn’t always honest about the whole story. I think she is truely angry with me now because I told him that she hit me. To my face he doesn’t seem to concur with her entirely, he never says or does anything to make me think he believes everything she says so I don’t know if this is her wishful thinking. He isn’t able or willing to provide DD with a full time home although this is what she claims she wants, to live with him. Whether she really would though...

Both DC’s claim that both parents bad mouth each other. I am never sure what it is I have said that is bad that children might not like to hear and a lot of the truth I have never told them. No I don’t like him. He has said and done some really stupid things in the past and I have made it clear to him and DC they are not ok because I don’t want them to grow up thinking it is!

DD2 does not visit her father and this has causes DD1 to be dealing with a lot of emotion she doesn’t understand. DD1 has decided that me supporting DD2’s decision is some kind of treason

There is a lot of struggle in your family dynamics! I can kind of recognise the relationship your DD has with her dad from my own at her age. Girls can become very attached to their dads, but it sounds like your DD is using her dad to confirm that you are in the wrong and that he is quite happy to agree with her. Girls need to detach themselves from mainly their mum during the teenage years, and I think you have a very bad case of this with your DD. I guess also that because he doesn't want/can't have her living with him, she also feel rejected by him? And constantly has to seek his approval?

I think you need to be careful with openess, I think that can easily become too much for children. It's great that you don't badmouth your ex, but then you say "He has said and done some really stupid things in the past and I have made it clear to him and DC they are not ok because I don’t want them to grow up thinking it is!" - for a child this could be the same as badmouthing. Reading this I realised that I am guilty of the same myself with my ex! I think when you are very open with your DC, it can be hard to define the limits, and this bleeds into other areas, IYSWIM.

Have you had counselling yourself?

I have had, and one thing is to set boundaries!
The stupid things he has done unfortunately have been things out in the open - I have had no choice but to deal with them, and then try take a lesson from it to the DC - ok well it isn’t ok for XYZ to happen and this is what we do
Examples: -
he called one DC fat repeatedly and I had to step in
-He used to call me to come collect them if he couldn’t cope with them anymore

• he rarely comes to parents evenings at school but on occasion has made silly remarks to teachers and not set a good example
• he has shouted at me in front of DC many many times
• he used to really advocate smacking when he lost his rag

There is much more

Both DC feel awkward around some of his views (he’s really racist and homophobic) but I stay out of that except say it isn’t kind and teach inclusivity. I know DD feels she could tell me something deep and personal and private that she couldn’t tell him but I also know I feel a bit used and abused, tearful and resentful that I am relegated to the gross old slave woman who gets whipped when something goes wrong. I am not a victim and don’t want to be. I want some bloody respect, I am angry

So if your DD1 has been diagnosed with GAD, what treatment / support is she getting for that? It's not possible to tell from posts on a forum so apologies in a advance - but you don't sound like you have a lot of insight into / empathy for your DD's anxiety disorder. Do you think about how her behaviour towards you might be motivated by this MH condition?

It sounds like you're taking your DD's behaviour much too personally, and its triggering the repetition of some dynamics with you and her Dad. It's ok to get angry in private, but you need a new strategy as well as anger is unlikely to help your communication.

There is nothing in place except me trying to learn how to cope. We are not under anyone anymore and she’s not deemed important/serious enough to get any further help - sent away with leaflets. Maybe her rage is anxiety underneath? I don’t actually know. I’m not dismissing anything I am just a normal person and don’t understand her psychologically so I don’t have enough insight into GAD for her. I do have empathy but she is nearly 16 my patience is running really thin. I myself have had CBT and that’s what I was looking for for her (as that’s all I know and it helped my anxiety years ago) but I don’t think there are the services unless it’s a crisis. I can’t afford it privately I don’t think (and ex won’t help)

I’m going to look at how much a private therapist would be and if there is anyone local

I’ve left a message for a local low cost counselling service, perhaps they can help

Sending you hugs OP

That is a really painful situation for everyone except ex, who gets to be the good guy and judge you from the sidelines.

You should be very proud of yourself that you have tried so hard to get support. You know things are not right or healthy and you have tried. You are human, flawed, and self aware, I'm not hearing self justification, you've not behaved well at times but you know that and are asking for help. Well done.

I wish I had some for you.

You could try the book Growing up again

Your DD1 could go on antidepressants - it changed everything for the better for a friend of mines family, loving family DD at 15-16 totally anxious depressed and angry.

You could do an anger management course, Google BAM. I did it, it was good, useful for techniques to not explode.

You could look into Borderline Personality Disorder

Why can't your ex have DD1 living with him?

I have a very similar story with my DS who at 19 told me any woman in the street would be a better mother than I was, and that he wanted to rip out my DNA from his body. We had been at your situation for 2,3 years or so. It is soul destroying, exhausting and plays havoc with all your other relationships. It's hell loving your child but also resenting their behaviours and your own lack of parent skill.

I have not been able to resolve any thing with my DS who has gone NC with me. I too worry I am a toxic parent- but my DD is okay with me. It's awful. I'm so sorry.

I need to know where I am going wrong. We argued this morning and last night. After I write this I text her saying good luck if you have exam today and I love you. She wouldn’t tell me if she had an exam

This is texting now:
She asked me for something and I replied. She didn’t reply to my I love you text but anyway
Me: how are you feeling
Her: fine
Me: are you finding exams stressful as they can be and that’s normal
Her: no I’m finding you stressful
Me: I do want to support you
Her: you are me me me. Fuck off my case all the time
Me: please don’t swear at me
Her: get lost then

Lots of sympathy op. This is trivial issue maybe but text conversation , you saying feeling stress is normal, as 15 yr old with poor relationship with mother, I'd take that as her accusing me of not being normal. The 'I do want to support you', I'd try not to say this kind of thing, give her support as you are doing, rather than telling her how hard you're trying...again she may feel you're emphasising how much work she is.

Hope u get some help

Thank you. What has totally de-escalated things was me making a really nice dinner of all things she likes.

Until I fished it up she was still screeching at me, hating me, go away, I hate you, I hate being near you. You are the cause of all my problems she said. It’s all you.

I said to her that I wondered if it would help go talk to someone without me being there at all, just for her. She says no way.

But she’s all calm now she had the nice food. Said she doesn’t hate me. I said just think about going to talk to someone it can really help you when you feel stressed, even if you stressed at me, no matter what you said they wouldn’t tell me, you could say anything you like.

One of the first posters on this thread recommended non-violent resistance - OP, have you had a chance to look into it? I think it could be a brilliant fit for your circumstances.

neil that was me. I'm a practitioner and agree it would be ideal

Yes I’ve been looking at NVR and the therapy place sent me an email that they would call me Monday, I am happy to have my own sessions if need be but I don’t know what they can offer, as it’s one of those low cost places and I don’t know how specialist it will be! I am hoping they will see a young person! Fingers crossed.

Love bombing update: she slept in my bed last night. This apparently was due to a spider in her room but it isn’t really, I am not sure if it is her trying to re-bond with me or just to feel ‘safe’. She slept with me until she was about 7, even despite me trying to get her to stay in her own room she would feel rejected. I said some nice things to her which she rejected like ‘I love you’ but she did it in a soft kinder way (which I praised) so she rejected a physical hug but said so ‘no thank you, sorry’ and I said ‘don’t be sorry I don’t mind if you say no to anything if it’s said politely to me as it’s your body and no one should touch you if you do not want it’ THIS IS THE CHILD I KNOW IS IN THERE! And she’s so lovely

I have also given her £10 for a Father’s Day present. I offered to drop both DD’s off together to go buy it (DD2 is willing to buy him a gift and card and spent 2 hours with him tomorrow partly to see their other sibling) but DD1 said she wished it was just me and her. I’ve already invited DD2 and don’t feel I should exclude her, but neither do I want DD1 to see it as rejection. dD1 has a very negative mindset ‘we will all argue’ before we have even left the house and this seems to affect all 3 of us so I need to break this pattern - she will behave badly in a self fulfilling phrophecy

What a tough situation. Why can’t your ex take her in? At the very least maybe you should suggest that she asks him herself. They can have that conversation. At her age, it’s time to stop facilitating and propping him up. Next time she is screaming at you say in a matter of fact way “you know you have options right? If you really hate living here with me you can ask your dad to go live with him”. Maybe some space would really help your relationship

I think she has asked and he avoids the subject/closes it down. I have also asked whether it’s an option and he says no.

Basically he has a really small house and a young child. Neither him or his GF would change their working hours to accommodate School drop offs and pick ups and they don’t live very near to her school. I don’t expect his GF to do this anyway but she has a lovely bedroom at my house full of clothes, School books, make up etc and he knows he won’t/can’t recreate that at his house. He talks about moving to a larger house for the past 10 years so DD will be an adult before that ever happens and he’s not doing it for DD anyway! He doesn’t want the expense! He pays very minimal maintenance and is tight with £.

This is all me speculating. He suggests sometimes having DD1 more frequently during the week but that very quickly drops off and he forgets about her. It’s sad and infuriating. Never comes to parents evenings either

When she was 8 the counselling she had then did deal with internal rage about her dad. I wasn’t party to all of it but the rage was not against me in truth although I was getting it all physically. Then now she buries it and won’t hear one bad word about him...

Hi Findingmywayeveryday, I have been thinking about you and your situation.

From what you describe it feels like you have so much guilt in you about how DD1 turned out, your ex's behaviour, your PND, the arrival of DD2, basically EVERYTHING. Could it be that because you have all this guilt it really shows in your communicaction with her and that you overdo it in trying to make up for this guilt? To me the text exchange sounds a bit like you are not giving her much space, that you are overdoing it when you tell her that you love her in spite of her behaviour towards you. Of course a parent's love for a child is not conditional, but it's also very important to teach children that you don't always love their behavior. It sounds to me like you don't think it's ever her fault, that it's a all a result of how she was brought up. But she is not only a product of her environment.

I am very concerned about how she tells you that everything is your fault, why does she not want to take any responsibility for herself and her behaviour?

Also - there is not only one kind of love, is there? We can't love people the same way. You love DD1 in one way, you love DD2 in another way, because they are different persons. That does not mean that you love one more than the other.

And lastly - mums ALWAYS get the rough treatment, it will always be you that she "takes it out on" because you are safe, your love is not conditional xxx

OP, I may be WAY off with this but have you considered pathological demand avoidance/Girls on the spectrum?
My apologies if im barking up the wrong tree

I have considered everything in the last 2 posts. That she needs to learn consequences. That there needs to be boundaries. That not everything is all my fault and that I have too much guilt. Her not taking any responsibility for anything is why I am getting into arguments trying to get her to see it’s not all one way!

I have also considered the demand avoidance because that too is so close to what she is like and any stress or demand sparks a reaction even a presumed demand. I don’t think she is ASD. I also wonder about borderline or bipolar. But all of those things is just something to place all the blame - in having a label would I feel better? That it’s no ones fault?

Today was good but all on her terms. I had to tread on eggshells to have a nice day and not go outside the lines

Having a 'label' in our case has helped a little, it's still early days for my dd but having a diagnosis has taken a lot of the pressure off and made me realise that actually, I'm not a bad parent. Dd now has access to people who can help her with coping strategies etc.

Maybe a trip to the GP? Or if it's within your budget a private asessment as it cuts out all the long winded appointments. Wishing you the best for the future x

My main goal is to somehow some way get her to some counselling. I can do all the reading but I think she needs some CBT

I hope they can help.
NVR is all about increasing parental presence and from your posts I think they might help.
It also involves putting in place a support network of people, this can be teachers, neighbours friends etc.
One thing that might help in the short term is some self care. Do stuff for yourself, a coffee alone with a book or anything you actually can enjoy. Not only wil it refresh you and give you a break but she can see that you are a person on your own right and not just her emotional punchbag.

I wonder if her anger is really for her dad but you are far safer to direct it to?