(Possible content warning) Consent when one person is withholding information

[Asking4AFriend]

This is a bit of a weird one, but it's something pretty minor that happened to me 7 or 8 years ago and is mostly forgotten except every six months or so it unexpectedly comes to mind and doesn't sit well with me. It's not something I want associated with my normal user name, so am just using an old throw away one.

I was in a long distance relationship with a guy I had been friends with for a long time, we'd moved apart, then got back in touch and things really hit off. I went to stay with him for a couple of weeks, then he came to stay with me, then me to him etc. It wasn't a long relationship, but it felt fairly intense at the time as we were talking every day/every other day.

Then he was due to come stay with me; I'd just moved house and was going through some hard times at work. He'd been a bit quiet, but I had thought it was me not having a phone line or internet for a week or so due to the move. His visit was delayed a couple of days due to some family stuff, but then he was there. I was probably too naive to realise that he hadn't just left his stuff in the car to get it later, but he actually wasn't planning on staying as planned.

We had sex twice, hung out and did things, then he dropped the old 'I think we should call it a day and just be friends.' I, a bit blindsided, was all fawning and 'yes, sure let's stay friends'.

Of course we didn't. I haven't heard from him since, esp as I dropped him from my social media a few months after we broke up and I realised that the friends thing was bullshit.

Obviously at the time of the sex I was ready, willing, and clearly consented, however had I known that he was planning to dump me that afternoon I almost certainly wouldn't have consented to a last shag.

I'm not trying to make myself out to be a victim of some gaslighting sexual predator, I'm just trying to work out in my head how much of an utter shitbag this guy was. Or is it fairly standard to withhold the truth in order to get your end away before dumping someone?

When you consent to sex that's all it is. The other person wants sex and you agree you do to. That the other person wants sex and you consent at that time says nothing about the future. Any other way of organising it would be a minefield.

I do wonder slightly whether this thread will be looked back on by the sociology students of twenty years time as evidence of The Way People Used To Think.

Not the OP’s case really but the general assumption that people lie in order to get sex all the time and that this does not invalidate consent. Will the students of the future see it in the same way as the 1980s approach to getting women drunk in order to overcome their resistance?

It has been talked about in relation to the undercover police officers, and I think people feel safe talking about that because it will only affect a tiny number of relationships, but for some women “I’m single and available to have a long term relationship with you” could be an equally life-altering lie.

Mind you, you’d need to enter the far future and the realms of mind reading technology before you could police “I love you”

but for some women “I’m single and available to have a long term relationship with you” could be an equally life-altering lie

In those situations, people have the chance to walk away. I would be at anyone claiming they want a long term relationship from day one because you just don’t know.

But some of us only want sex when we feel reasonably sure we are in a long term relationship. Of course, people change, things don't work out. That's different to a calculated strategy one partner uses.

The OP thought she was in a long term relationship, they had been together for a while. He knew he was walking away, but waited for a quick shag before telling her. He didn't change his mind, or regret anything. It was a calculated choice he made to take advantage of the situation.

That’s one way of reading it.

Or he got cold feet and didn’t know how to tell her so took the cowards way out at the point at which they were going to live together.

Which seems to me he was scared of commitment.

It’s not quite the same as saying yes I want a long term relationship and as soon as he got sex, he ran away. He ran away when it came to commitment from my reading of the OP.

He wasn't moving in, just down for a visit.

Sorry yes you’re right.

However, he could have visited and got his shag then disappeared. He didn’t - which makes me think it wasn’t a cut and dry as he was “withholding information”.

He may have changed his mind. These things happen.

I can't believe some of the responses on here. It is incredibly depressing the amount of people who seem to think 'men lie get over it' is either an appropriate thing to say to someone thinking through an event in their life that has affected them, or is something any of us need to put up with.
And the attempts to come up with a back story to defend him as to why he changed his mind are just
*They were in a relationship.

• He stopped calling and texting as frequently - at the time OP put this down to 'life stuff' *He delayed his normal visit to her. *He turned up without his things - he had no plans to stay overnight.
• He had sex with her twice and then dumped her.

He did not change his mind. Or have a n epiphany. Or get cold feet. Or decide the sex was bad and walked out. He had already made his mind up to break up with her when he got there - he went there intending to break up. But before he did that - he had sex with the op twice.

Op was consenting to sex within a (reasonably long term) relationship. he was having a break up shag. The fact that he didn't tell her that's what it was was because he knew she wouldn't consent if she knew the full set of circumstances. He circumvented her consent. She did not give full and knowledgeable consent because she did not know she was already his ex girlfriend!

No - it might not be rape in a legal sense, but its a shitty thing to do and the OP has every right to dwell on it as often as she wants. Not least because it will probably have affected how much she feels she can trust partners going forward. Telling a white lie to someone you just met (I love that band - oh wow I support Millwall too) is completely different to lying within a relationship. Especially when one of you knows the relationship is over and the other doesn't - and that information is specifically withheld so that the man can get one last shag.

The problem here is the low standards people are holding men to. Not the OP. As long as you keeping shrugging off them lying to get their end away they're going to keep doing it. And as we are the ones who run the pregnancy risk, they're lies will always make us more vulnerable. And we should not accept it.

No - we can never truly know what is inside a partner's mind. But as a society we can make it socially unacceptable to lie in order to get sex. Like the pp's ex who cried when she pointed out he knew she would never have consented if she'd known he didn't love her anymore - they know they're being shits - they need to be made to feel it. They need to be held in our contempt for their poor behaviour.

op you have every right to feel any way you want about this. What he did was unacceptable. And people are telling you its commonplace so get over it, then it is their bleak view of humanity and low standards for men that is the problem, not you.

Of course this isn't a consent issue
I don't really see what the issue is other than his behaviour was hurtful but then you could start to go along the lines of 'I met someone in a club and they said they could really fall for me so we had sex and I never heard from them again' which happens all the time and is a kick in the guts and upsetting but you have to learn from the experience and wait till you really trust somebody if you are likely to get so upset if things don't pan out the way you would like them too. It's definitely not any kind of assault .

FFS there is a difference between a person you just me spinning a line for a quick shag - and your boyfriend neglecting to tell you he has no intention of ever seeing you again and getting his leg over one last time.

Any adult knows that they would be naive to assume a stranger putting the moves on is looking for a lasting relationship.

We should be able to trust our partner's, however.

I think the fact that you think about this every 6 month isn't normal OP.

You weren't tricked or forced into having sex.

You need to get a grip and move on!

I think you need to get over it. I’m sure it’s happened to many of us (has happened to me several times and I have probably done it to someone else). He slept with you and then decided he didn’t want a relationship, he may have known this before he slept with you or he may not, maybe he thought sleeping with you would make him feel something more but it didn’t. People often say ‘let’s just be friends’ and then vanish, they say it because they are letting you down gently. Forget him and move on. Your not really a victim of a sexual predator, just a typical male.

OP you're right to be angry with him the guy's a shitbag.

It is very telling how some PPs have reacted. Yes we've all had experience of this kind of behaviour but we shouldn't dismiss it. I'll be working hard to make sure my DSs know that this is not ok

I have found women are often happy to diminish the experiences of others in order to normalise what's happened to them.

I'm angry quite a lot, not at specific people but at the idea that this kind of behaviour is to be expected - and accepted.

moo I don’t think it’s the fact women are happy to diminish it, it’s the fact that it’s not worth the heart ache, this man isn’t worth the OP losing sleep over, why let it get to you that much that it’s effecting you months and years later? Yes he’s a shit bag but these things happen and life’s to short to spend it being angry with people. He’s not in OP’s life anymore and probably never will be so why let it continue to get you down?

I used to be angry with people. I have been in many shitty relationships, have dates some pretty awaful men but I have learnt to not give them the satisfaction of getting to me, life’s for living and having fun, not worrying about things that are out of your hands.

I really think linking this to consent is very worrying. Where do you draw the line? I think a lot of us wouldn't have slept with exes if we knew xyz. Thinking about this every 6 months isn't normal. Yes it's a very shitty thing to do but don't link it to consent.

He slept with you and then decided he didn’t want a relationship,

Did you not read the op? He did not sleep with her and then decide he did not want a relationship. They were already in a relationship. He went over to her house - to dump her - but slept with her first.

And yes - he did that because he knew she wouldn't sleep with him if he dumped her first. He knew she wouldn't consent to sex if she was in full knowledge of the facts. So he purposefully withheld those facts. It's sadly not a rape issue, but it absolutely is a consent issue.

and op is entitled to feel any way about that that she feels.

If people have been shitty to you in the past you absolutely do not need to 'get over it'. You are allowed to be angry. That isn't 'giving them power.' And letting them off the hook is not showing them that they haven't got to you. It's telling them that what they did is OK and enables them to go on doing it again and again without ever analysing their behaviour or facing consequences for the hurt they cause.

If you don't want to carry that anger - then that is entirely up to you, it is your right to let it go. But that doesn't give you the moral high ground over someone who chooses to feel anger and hold the person who hurt them responsible.

Added to that -we often don't get to choose our emotional response. So just saying 'get over it' is not helpful. It's a dick move.

Erm....this is a weird one. Not sure what I was expecting to read the the whole warning thing in the title.

A lot of us have been there. Both men and women. Happened to me. Had 3 dates with who I thought was a genuinely lovely guy and could see a relationship happening. Slept with him on the 4n date. After 10 mins of leaving my house in the morning, he blocked my number and never heard from him again.

Was hurt at the time but got over it quickly. And can honestly say I've never really thought about it since. It's not something I personally would ever come on here to talk about and most definitely would never put the 'warning' title even if I did.

You make it sound like he raped you op. He didn't. Bit of a twat? Yes. But rapist? No. Not at all. You consented too, end of. He did absolutely nothing wrong.

I think maybe you were expecting the reactions of lots of and hugs/handholds. But in reality you aren't going to get that as it's such a common thing to happen. Again to women and also men. Just move on.

Thank you pretzels!

No one is saying it meets prosecution criteria for rape. Yes, the OP needs to move on. She'll find that easier if she's allowed to process that he was a real dick and she can expect better.

He had sex under false pretences. He didn't persuade her to have break up sex. He didn't change his mind, or get cold feet. He deliberately and callously didn't tell her how he felt until after he'd had a last shag- indeed 2- because she would not have consented if she had known.

I'm trying to think of a parallel.
You lend someone you know well a precious item. You see them regularly, you trust them. They 'borrow' it knowing they are moving to the other side of the country and have no intention of giving it back.
You lend someone your car, when they have told you they have their own insurance. They know they don't.

Also this was 7/8 years ago. 7/8 months ago, could understand why you would still be pissed off. But 7/8 years ago, it really shouldn't still be bothering you like this op. I think maybe you need to look a little bit deeper at why you feel this way.

I have found women are often happy to diminish the experiences of others in order to normalise what's happened to them.

I agree with this. It's sad. But it also makes me very angry.

Just because bad behaviour is commonplace doesn't make it OK. The only way that bad behaviour will be stopped is by making it a big deal.

And yes - lying to your sexual partners - from ONS to long term relationships - should be stamped out. It should be unthinkable that any human thinks they are entitled to tell a lie in order to get sex. If you can't get sex with the truth - then work on being a better person!

People lie to get sex. That happens and is never going to change. Suggesting these people are "rapists" would be a real insult to people who have actually been raped. And by that theory basically all woman have been raped as this has happened to basically everyone I know at some point in there life. (Man lying to get them into bed.)

I've been raped. Not wildly violently or anything, but still. And I still feel for OP. I haven't had this kind of experience, but I'd find it upsetting.

It's an abuse of trust, a violation. It doesn't undermine women who have been raped, to acknowledge that.

We all deal with scammers as we go about our life, being careful how we look after our possessions, who we trust. We hope that the people we are in relationship with are not scammers. It's extra hard when people we trust scam us.

Telling op to 'get over it' doesn't help her process why she is still upset.

OP, if you are there, I'm sorry it still bothers you. Have you talked it over IRL?

The problem here is the low standards people are holding men to

Not quite. I recognise that what he did was immature and cowardly etc.

But it’s a bit of a leap to talk about consent etc.

And it isn’t just about men. Women do this too!

It sounds like it is just another person doing a shitty thing. I have sympathy for that, but to make it a bigger issue about consent etc is a stretch too far for me.

Totally @Believeitornot. Women do it too, my friends were always doing this type of thing in our younger days. Not just men. This is yet another type of thing where men get the bad reputation yet women can be just as bad. And men feel the consequences exactly the same - I.e shit after a woman has slept with him and then never calls him again.

and the OP has every right to dwell on it as often as she wants.

Well of course she does but considering this happened 8 years ago it might not be particularly helpful or healthy to be still caught up with what was a not unusual bad experience with a bit of a tosser.

She had sex with a man who treated her badly. Unfortunately that happens. It happens to men too - they have sex or pour their hearts out to women who treat them badly. People behave badly sometimes.