DH, his BF and the exclusion of women.

[ThatRose]

I've NC for this as I wouldn't want the people involved to identify me and link to other posts.

I'm not sure how to explain this without sounding like I am BU.
This situation is upsetting me so if I am U please don't be too harsh in your criticism.

This will probably be long so I don't drip feed but for context DH and I don't have much contact with either sets of parents as they are abusive but that's another thread in itself.
One of the reasons I'm feeling delicate about this is that we reluctantly saw my parents over Christmas at a large family gathering and they made a point of humiliating me and embarrassing me in front of everyone. We only stayed for two hours but I'm still upset about it now, it's made me feel vulnerable and isolated.

DH and I are late 40s, it's our second marriage each. We've been together for 3 years in total.
For some years before we met DH was the single one among his friends, they all met at school and have stayed in touch. Staying in touch mainly takes the form of the occasional text or email.
All of DH's friends are still married to their first wives so they've all been with their spouses for 15+ years and they are scattered across the country now.

We haven't spoken about it but reading between the lines I do think that his BF was support for DH during DH's acrimonious first divorce and subsequent time being single.
DH's ex wife divorced him on the grounds of unreasonable behaviour. In the past DH has mentioned that during their divorce proceedings his ex cited DH's time with his mates, specifically BF as an example of unreasonable behaviour but I don't think this formed part of the final grounds for divorce.

For the past 3 years when DH has seen his BF it has been with me and BF's wife, either at our house or theirs.
We see them maybe twice a year and it's fine, they aren't bad company.

BF frequently tries to arrange lads get togethers with DH at the centre of this.
I don't just mean the odd night out but holidays together.
BF wants them all to meet up at least every other month.

DH freely expresses his frustration with the constant push to meet up with BF's clear exclusion of wives and children but it's the same way that some people are with their families. It's ok for DH to complain about BF but if I even so much as make a joke about BF then DH jumps at me.

It's clear from the sparse take up and conversations that have happened in my presence that some of the other men find BF's frequent need for lads meet ups and breaks away ridiculous to the point of being offensive.
These are middle aged men with families, mortgages, jobs and all of the other things that go with living normal lives with children.

As an admittedly extreme example, BF has suggested they go to Oz for two weeks later in the year.
BF has made it clear this should be men only, no wives. Some of these men can't afford to go abroad with their families for their annual holiday.

This weekend will be the first lads day out DH has gone on since we met. It's not an overnight.
It's not the money I mind or the time with his friends as that's important for anyone.

DH has just come downstairs to see me about giving him a lift to the day out.
Fair enough, that was agreed.
DH then went on to complain about his BF and these lads meet ups, how BF is harking back to the past when they were young, he doesn't understand why BF doesn't want to spend time with his own family etc, etc.
I bit my lip and said nothing.

My frustration is that DH can complain about this but I'm wrong if I do even if I just join in with the joke.
I really mind the express exclusion of women, my friends include everyone and I would tell them I thought they were being unreasonable if they excluded men more often than occasionally.
I'm bothered that this may be the start of the days out, then weekends away, then holidays and on and on.

I don't think that there's anything wrong with having the odd night out without partners, as they do change the dynamic. Long holidays that mean people can't afford to go away with their families are w bit much though.

I think you need to establish boundaries with your dh and let his best friend suggest what he wants. It doesn't really affect you unless your dh goes along with it and it's not up to you to impose rules on the best friend.

Men can meet up and be friends. Something about this though reminds me of a situation a bisexual man told me about, all the men going away for annual holidays together alone.

Don’t see anything wrong with this if I’m honest. We’re all entitled to arrange nights out without our SO. He might suggest it so often as it doesn’t always happen so he’s suggesting alternative dates.

Again, I think holidays are fine so long as they are not at the expense of family holidays, admittedly I wouldn’t like the 2 weeks holiday, but wouldn’t mind a shorter one in theory. My DH has gone on stags abroad but I guess that there is at least a significant reason for that rather than just wanting a lads holiday abroad. I do have friends who go on holidays twice year with other friends while their SO stays at home with the kids and it seems to work for them.

I think it’s odd your dh doesn’t do more to set his friend straight that he doesn’t enjoy these sorts of times out or gets upset when you bring it up. Maybe he’s feeling more conflicted about it than he realises? Like he actually doesn’t mind as much as he makes out to you, and gets defensive if you bring it up.

But having time alone with friends is normal and healthy. A two week holiday to the other side of the world with the lads when you’re middle aged is odd, yes. But occasional nights out or weekends away isn’t. My dh and I are in our mid to late 30s so slightly different generation maybe, but my dh sees his guy friends for a night out (staying overnight, they all live about 2+ hours from us now) or a weekend about every 2-3 months. Sometimes it’s every month, sometimes (like now, I’m pregnant so we’re both staying close to home) not for 4 months at a time. My close girlfriends from growing up live overseas so I don’t see them that much but would if they lived closer. We do meet up as couples too. But he still has a few nights/weekends with each of a couple of close friends. Of course they would. Sometimes you just need one on one time with your friends. I almost never bring him to see my friends as I see them so infrequently (because they live so far away). It’s important to maintain friendships as an individual as well as a couple.

But if he doesn’t like these lads weekends, then he needs to back away from the friendship and he and other friends maybe need to be more direct about how they’d like to socialise, which is another issue entirely.

I understand why this gets to you. My dh has a friend exactly the same; his phrase is "lads only" constantly. I find this really disrespectful. It's fine to say you'd like to spend some time one to one with your friend, but when he does this "lads only" stuff it's to belittle the women in attendance. I didn't want to hang out with him in the first place, why is he making a point of telling me & dh I'm excluded? Also very often it turns out not to be "lads only" as he brings his latest GF along (I think this is so the "lads" can appreciate her beauty without the censure of their wives ).
Dh is reducing contact with this bell end as he is a raging misogynist and has tried to arrange days out including our Ds (age 4) but not our DD (age 6).
He also once sent me a "reminder" that it was steak & BJ day, that's how he views women. Sorry, op, I went off on one there. YANBU.

Well if this is the first time in the three years you have been together that they have had a "lads day" then obviously the other blokes are the same as your dh and dont want to do it. I also dont see why anyone is getting their nose out of joint over one actual lads day out in three years.

I quite regularly meet up "just the girls" and whilst we certainly wouldnt consider a fortnight in Oz, it isnt (in my circle) an odd thing to have days/nights out or even nights away from our other halves/kids.

I see nothing wrong with eithe gender going out with their mates on a boys or girls only night out. To me it's normal. They are also not excluding wives as you've socialised a couple of times with them.

Of course two weeks away is nuts and I see your husbands frustration if it's always extreme. But I don't think you can ban him going on boys nights out.

I'd question why you feel insecure about this and why you feel it's the start of a down hill slope. Is something else going on in your marriage? Do you have female friends that you go out with?

Have I missed something on the timing here?

BF would like these meet ups to be every other month. But this day our coming up is actually the first one since you met your husband three years ago - yes?

So even though BF wants to go out more with just 'the lads', it isn't actually happening that much? So your issues are that you worry it might pick up on frequency, and that you are annoyed you're not allowed to joke about it?

To the first point I think your fears are possibly groundless if this is the first time it's happened in 3 years! Even the divorce comment... when you look for examples of UB, often a good solicitor will suggest that you don't pick the worst examples as it can make things unnecessarily inflammatory. A "he spent too much time with his mates to the exclusion of putting effort into our marriage" is a nice easy non confrontational one. So I wouldn't worry too much on that score.

As for not being allowed to joke about it... honestly? I'm tempted to say he's being an arse there. But - you're not actually joking, are you? You don't like your husband going out with him, you don't like his preference for lads only (which many people won't think is an issue at all) you clearly don't like him - that raally seeps through your whole post! - and you are worried it was a factor in the previous marriage breakdown. So honestly? I don't think you are joking.

I think you're using a joke as a shield to have a little dig. And that could be why your husband doesn't like it.

If your husband regularly went out with him and knew you couldn't care less, then a genuine joke would just raise a laugh.

But because your husband probably realised you don't like his best friend, and don't like him going out with him, then what he's reacting to from you isn't a joke but a criticism. I'd react to a criticism too!

You need to talk to your husband.

But there's nothing wrong with time away without you, or time that is lads only, not in itself.

There's only been one in THREE years. Bloody hell. And he's only asking for one evening every 8 weeks or so. Hardly non stop lads nights is it? I'd go nuts if i didn't see my friends with out their partners at least once a fortnight. Time apart is great for a relationship! Being a family doesn't mean you're joined at the hip. Couldn't think of anything worse than not being see as an individual in a partnership, but one half of a couple.

I get two weeks in Oz seems a bit much, but he hardly sees his friends without their partners. And that's only twice a year! Maybe he misses his mates?
And bf are like family. You can slag them off, but no one else can. Lol

And if i was the best friend I'd be insulted that i supported someone through a difficult time, only to be dropped like a hot potato when they coupled up.

Everything Ellisandra said is spot on.

My OP said It's not the money I mind or the time with his friends as that's important for anyone and that is really how I feel.

'm not trying to impose rules on the BF at all. Or my husband when it comes to days out.
It's true I do feel differently about holidays but that's because we get limited holiday allowance and it would be expensive. That's the point at which I would start to mind the money aspect.

BF has sometimes been out with other friends in the past 3 years when DH hasn't gone but it's rare that more than one or two of them go and they are often cancelled.
Originally, there was DH, BF and another BF. There were three of them but aside from the occasional text or email the 3rd BF has said he no longer wants to go out on the lads only weekends or be included in those invitations.
3rd BF has three daughters. That could be a coincidence but I know the vehemence of the lads only insistence bothers him.

Tuna I don't think DH is bisexual though I have wondered about BF but if he is then I don't think he's being honest with himself about it.

No Ellis I don't dislike BF or any of DH's friends.

It's DH who says the frequency and breadth of BF's requests is odd.
I'm not sure I've explained the oddness very well.
As an example BF becomes angry if people don't want to do the same pub crawl in the same place as they did last year 'what do you mean you don't want to go to Liverpool in February? We always do that, we did that last year.'
DH has speculated that BF's marriage is unhappy or that he is unhappy as a father but I really don't know them well enough as a couple to comment either way.

He's not asked to go out Thingsdo that would be weird.

Bananaman and Sarahj yes, it's nearer to that sort of thing. The exclusion and that lads mentality. I'm still not sure I'm explaining how it is.

My group of friends are from Uni we're women and men, gay, straight and bisexual.
We have also scattered but because we always were a group of men and women it's perfectly normal for partners of either sex and sometimes family members or visiting friends to come along too.
That's how it's always been.

Ellis I do need to talk to my husband and he needs to talk to me too. DH is usually being scathing of BF and he's the one who makes the jokes too. When I joke about BF in response to DH and I'm much gentler than DH then it must be because I hate the BF? It's got to the point where I don't dare mention BF because anything I say will always be wrong.

No, the reason I think you dislike him, is the way in which you spoke about him in the OP. I've no axe to grind here, you didn't sound positive about him.

I think you need to tell him to quit whining about BF and tell him how he feels as it’s not fair to constantly dump it on you, it is making you dislike BF and then he is getting annoyed with you for that which is not good enough.

The ‘lads/girls only’ thing annoys me too both ways. Also the very few ‘girls night out’ I have been on have been a whole night bitching about their husbands (i’m a LP) and I honestly just don’t like being around that kind of crap. If you dislike your partner you can leave, otherwise shut up FFS!

There is a very different tone at these ‘only’ nights and the ‘meeting up with friends without your partner’ nights IMO.

Thank you for sifting through my confusion Offred you get what I mean and you've given good advice.

Of course there’s a very different tone, lads will talk lads things and women will talk women’s things. There’s always a different dynamic when you’re with the girls or the lads than if you’re in couples for both sexes! That isn’t a reason to be so against lads/girls nights. Everyone needs time with their friends on their own, I think people who don’t like them have some kind of insecurity, and that’s your problem not the problem of the individual going out.

Is your parents behaviour, which was appalling, clouding your judgment ?

Tuna, wtf, so every all Male gathering is gay ? Shame on you for gay shaming.

Ha ha! Or maybe some people just don’t find sexism appealing whether it is coming from women or men...

“Lad’s things” and “women’s things” sounds like something from the league of gentlemen 🙄

Sounds like he's setting you up OP. By whinging to you about BF but then jumping down your throat if you agree. Definitely a set up.

I'd be calmly listening and then gently asking a question or two. Waiting patiently for an answer, leaving a nice long awkward silence to let DH'S unreasonableness sink in to his own awareness. E.g. "oh so you don't want to go?" This only works if you stay totally neutral and calm though. Maybe a bit of a head tilt if you're feeling brave. Might not suit your personality of course but that's my approach. I always find asking a question cuts out a lot of the circular arguing back and forth.

I think I understand what you're Nothing to stop DH evening it out between your dc after the fact.. This friend doesn't really seem to have grown up and is living in the past.

Haha oh gosh, here we go, sexism. It’s called having your own social life away from having to rely on your SO for entertainment. It’s a shame that you obviously don’t have that, and I mean that sincerely.

Sometimes it’s nice to have a different outlet for things than just your SO, I think life would be very stale and boring if you had to solely rely on your partner.

We were in bed talking this evening I am not starting any conversations about it with DH when DH said maybe he should cry off and stay at home to look after me.

I'm in bed with a chest infection but I've been taking antibiotics since Tuesday so I should be plenty well enough to drive DH by Saturday and I won't need looking after.

This evening it really seemed as though DH wanted an excuse to get out of it but I'm not going to be his excuse.

That's what I mean, the whole thing is odd.

There's DH who complains that BF is stuck in the past/not happy as a Dad/in his current marriage and there are the other friends who distance themselves or don't go or object on grounds of the clear exclusion of women or for other reasons.

Then there's the fact that anything I say about it is wrong as far as DH is concerned. Which is completely out of character.

To people saying my self esteem is currently low because of my shitty parents. That's probably true but this day out was arraigned in early December before my parents kicked off. My current feeling like shit is probably as due to feeling physically shit as my parents.

I posted about it tonight because I wanted to try to order my thoughts after DH spoke to me about lifts. Not because I'm feeling insecure but because I just don't really get what's going on.

It happens that my older group of friends is inclusive but I don't rely on DH for a social life.
I don't have many female friends living nearby and the ones I do have small children so I tend to visit them for a daytime coffee or we go out for a coffee or whatever.

If anything DH relies on me for a regular social life as by his own admission he's given up trying to make new friends and no, this is not because I keep him home or prevent him from having hobbies or anything.

Offside I don't have a problem with lads/girls nights at all. As Offred has said There is a very different tone at these ‘only’ nights and the ‘meeting up with friends without your partner’ nights IMO. Which is the crux of it, there's something that is making more people including the men in their extended group uncomfortable It's not just me, I just can't put my finger on what is going on.

As it is remain I haven't had to wait for silence then ask questions this evening. I'll try it if he's looking for an excuse again.

DH says that BF is living in the past Sandy.

I can't remember who said I need to put some boundaries in place I do agree. Until I really know where DH is coming from I can't make a decision about what my position will be.

@offside

Is it mandatory that men are only allowed male friends and women are only allowed female friends or something? Most people I know have a mixed sex friendship group and spend time with their friends separate to their OHs without mandating that people who don’t share their biological sex cannot be in their presence.