DH, his BF and the exclusion of women.

[ThatRose]

I've NC for this as I wouldn't want the people involved to identify me and link to other posts.

I'm not sure how to explain this without sounding like I am BU.
This situation is upsetting me so if I am U please don't be too harsh in your criticism.

This will probably be long so I don't drip feed but for context DH and I don't have much contact with either sets of parents as they are abusive but that's another thread in itself.
One of the reasons I'm feeling delicate about this is that we reluctantly saw my parents over Christmas at a large family gathering and they made a point of humiliating me and embarrassing me in front of everyone. We only stayed for two hours but I'm still upset about it now, it's made me feel vulnerable and isolated.

DH and I are late 40s, it's our second marriage each. We've been together for 3 years in total.
For some years before we met DH was the single one among his friends, they all met at school and have stayed in touch. Staying in touch mainly takes the form of the occasional text or email.
All of DH's friends are still married to their first wives so they've all been with their spouses for 15+ years and they are scattered across the country now.

We haven't spoken about it but reading between the lines I do think that his BF was support for DH during DH's acrimonious first divorce and subsequent time being single.
DH's ex wife divorced him on the grounds of unreasonable behaviour. In the past DH has mentioned that during their divorce proceedings his ex cited DH's time with his mates, specifically BF as an example of unreasonable behaviour but I don't think this formed part of the final grounds for divorce.

For the past 3 years when DH has seen his BF it has been with me and BF's wife, either at our house or theirs.
We see them maybe twice a year and it's fine, they aren't bad company.

BF frequently tries to arrange lads get togethers with DH at the centre of this.
I don't just mean the odd night out but holidays together.
BF wants them all to meet up at least every other month.

DH freely expresses his frustration with the constant push to meet up with BF's clear exclusion of wives and children but it's the same way that some people are with their families. It's ok for DH to complain about BF but if I even so much as make a joke about BF then DH jumps at me.

It's clear from the sparse take up and conversations that have happened in my presence that some of the other men find BF's frequent need for lads meet ups and breaks away ridiculous to the point of being offensive.
These are middle aged men with families, mortgages, jobs and all of the other things that go with living normal lives with children.

As an admittedly extreme example, BF has suggested they go to Oz for two weeks later in the year.
BF has made it clear this should be men only, no wives. Some of these men can't afford to go abroad with their families for their annual holiday.

This weekend will be the first lads day out DH has gone on since we met. It's not an overnight.
It's not the money I mind or the time with his friends as that's important for anyone.

DH has just come downstairs to see me about giving him a lift to the day out.
Fair enough, that was agreed.
DH then went on to complain about his BF and these lads meet ups, how BF is harking back to the past when they were young, he doesn't understand why BF doesn't want to spend time with his own family etc, etc.
I bit my lip and said nothing.

My frustration is that DH can complain about this but I'm wrong if I do even if I just join in with the joke.
I really mind the express exclusion of women, my friends include everyone and I would tell them I thought they were being unreasonable if they excluded men more often than occasionally.
I'm bothered that this may be the start of the days out, then weekends away, then holidays and on and on.

I didn’t say that though did I? I actually have more male friends than female friends but the dynamic is still a lot different when it’s just us women than in a mixed group. I’m surprised you wouldn’t know that?

Err yes, as I said in my first post IME the dynamic is different, it is sexist.

And you kind of did, you said it’s about people socialising without their OH, which is a completely different things to mandating that people of the opposite gender are not allowed.

This is so funny because it takes the piss out of .

One day out with the lads in THREE years. Fucking hell, I think you need to check the back of his head for a thumb print.

And it's a Day out, not a Night out. Presumably, so he can be tucked up in bed, with his Horlicks by 8pm?

How stifling. I can't believe people actually live such restricted lives. And I'm the same age as you.

One say out in three years??

And no it is not bloody sexist to see your friends without partners. My closest friends are women. Their partners are men. We meet up when we can and put the world to rights, with no partners or kids to detract from the quality time.

DPs friends are all men, I don't go along when they meet to watch football or whatever. That's his time.

I find this attitude to relationships stifling and claustrophobic. Like once you meet someone, you do everything together. I'd never have a long term relationship in my life if I wasn't allowed to nurture my own friendships.

Personally I hate it when my friends want to bring their partners and their kids if we are meeting up. I want to see my friends, not their husbands. Occasionally it’s fine but no more. I wouldn’t expect them to go to Australia with me though, that would be weird.

Does BF use these 'lads' nights out' as an opportunity to try to pull women? Is that why the other men have gradually back-pedalled from meeting up with him - because they are happily married and don't want to be party to his 'extra marital shenanigans'?

And your DH knows how it's likely to pan out - him being forced to be wing-man for a guy who thinks he's still got his mid-twenties pulling power?

The whole 'bunch of married guys being forced by one member to behave as though they are single' might be why your DH is defensive about his friend though. Perhaps he feels sorry for him, and sees any attempt you make at a joke as poking fun at a clearly inadequate man. HE, on the other hand, can make jokes, because he knows him and knows how far the behaviour might extend?

Utterly agree with the last three posts.

Sorry, was posting under Angel when I wrote that!

Some people are clearly struggling with understanding what the OP is saying so I will summarise;

• this is not about not liking her DH having friends.

• this is not about not wanting him to spend time with his friends without her. She wants him to do this.

• this is about how her DH spends ages bitching about his ‘BF’ (but not taking any action to stop himself getting annoyed) to her and then gets mad at her for her doing a less Bad version of what he is doing himself

• as a minor point the op isn’t comfortable with the BF’s insistence that women (not partners, women) are not allowed.

I shouldn’t need to explain that happening to have a night out where everyone is the same sex is very different to insisting that anyone of the opposite sex is banned...

Reminds of my DH. He’s not very social but didn’t like to think of himself like that, nor did he want others to think of him that way.

He also used to try excusing himself because of me! I went ballistic when I found out because I actually want his to go and do his own thing and it doesn’t show me as the person I am.

I’d stamp on his wish to use you as the excuse. Whatever way you look at this he’s out grown this friend but is doing all he can to avoid facing up to the fact and putting his own boundaries in place. You need to put him straight on this.

This is difficult to understand, obviously some smarter folks than me on here,

So basically you're pissed off that he whinges about his friend but you're not allowed to?
You're also pissed off about the fact bf want lads nights out that don't inc wives as you feel excluded?

Is this correct?

Maybe your partner whinges because he knows you're pissed off about the second point. He knows you don't want him to go without you?

No bluntness her DH complains about BF always wanting to exclude wives and children, as do the other men he invites, the events often are cancelled because all the other men apart from BF feel they have grown out of that kind of thing.

The OP doesn’t like the attitude the BF has of excluding women, and that her husband is moaning all the time about ‘BF’ but not doing anything about it and being snappy when she joins in saying things that support him in what he has said.

And the one night in three years is about going on these specific events the BF organises, that her DH and all the other men don’t want to go on and complain about. She hasn’t said anything about how often he sees his friends generally, just this one friend’s ‘no women’ events.

I have the odd moan about my kids, doesn't mean anyone else is allowed to. Sounds like that to me.

I really mind the express exclusion of women, I often go out with my girlfriends, as the exclusion of our menfolk. And often times, the children too. I don't see the issue with it, to be honest. We all need our own time and space.

I am also planning a get away with girlfriends. At the exclusion of men AND children.

I don't understand the issue, to be honest. One of your dh's friends likes him-only time, if the other guys don't, they are free to say no!

But essentially OP the issue is that if your h is bitching to you about this friend then he can’t be surprised if your attitude towards the BF is negative.

DH needs to shit or get off the pot re this BF and if he is not going to explain his annoyance to said friend he needs to stop the annoying bitching to you.

And kids is different. You have to continue to love and take care of them even when they are really objectionable because they are your kids.

Other relationships with friends, partners and even family are conditional on you actually getting something out of the interactions. I don’t really understand why anyone would continue to be friends with someone who perpetually annoyed them.

Maybe he got a lot of stick from his exwife about this friend and is making sure you are all right with it..hence complaining.
Then when you join in it triggers the fights he had with ex so gets mad.
Or maybe she insisted on going so now he says ..men only" Not blaming his ex as obviously we don't have her side of the story.
Saying that l give out about my family but dare my dh say a word about them..my defences are up straight away.
Going to Australia would be mad but maybe he is a dreamer..but lads night out .weekends away that fine.
I have woman friends..few different groups and we go away for weekends. Never say no men but it just happens.
You may be overthinking all this.

I don’t really understand why anyone would continue to be friends with someone who perpetually annoyed them

I guess for the same reason any of us stay in any relationship that isn’t working.

We hope it’ll get better
We question whether it’s that bad
Sunken costs fallacy
It’s hard to break away
It’s cutting a link with our past
It’s our normal

Loads of reasons really!

Yeah, joy you are probably right! I struggle to understand things like that. It drives me nuts listening to the bitching.

I tend to get most stuck on labels (which come with duties to me). I have issues with partners and family but to me friends are entertainment/support so if they are consistently annoying they aren’t my friend anymore.

He seems to be handling it ok with the BF though, not agreeing to most ideas (the Oz proposal is nuts of course).

I agree with pp that it's not ok to dump it all on you then 'mute' you. At least not without specifically requesting a 'listening ear' and acknowledging that unloading on you is what he's doing, as he needs to process his own thoughts before he can discuss this properly.

You could say that if this isn't a conversation, you don't want to take part. That risks cutting him off on the issue though, which could make things worse. So asking if he wants you to be a listening ear rather an a sounding board - so he has to request this explicitly - seems worthwhile.

It sounds as though he may want to cut off this friend but feels guilty because of the support / distraction gained from him in his single days.

You do need to spell out that he may not blame cancellations on you. You have not volunteered yourself as 'bad guy' to give him an easy way out.

I understand your discomfort with the friend. Sounds like he is a woman-hating arsewipe. Perhaps not surprising then if he is experiencing problems in his marriage and finds his wife and kids tedious and burdensome.

That's about the individual, not the concept of men's / women's activities. I enjoy time with my female friends and with gatherings of female acquaintances - because these are people I like and find interesting in their own right. They don't need to fall back on complaining about domestic frustrations as a topic of conversation. Nor do they hold 'all men are...' views. The all-female and no partners dynamic is different and one I like though.