Concerned my ex hasn't told me they are moving to a horsebox

[maisonettedweller]

My child has recently come home from their other parent's house, which is a long way away. We have shared care (though they are with me 80% of the time).

My child told me that my ex has bought a horsebox and will live in it when the house they are currently living in is sold (my ex is not the owner). My child is reliable, and I trust their understanding of the situation accurately reflects what my ex told them.

My ex has not mentioned this to me, other than writing they bought a "truck" in the handover diary (containing activities they have done together), which I initially assumed meant a pickup truck, to replace their car, till my child told me about the horsebox.

I emailed asking if they are intending to move, and they are being very evasive and only confirming they intend to move "next year". They have not said anything about it not being a house, and won't give me further details (which they must; that has been made clear to both of us in the past, in fact we each require permission from the other to move our child's home).

I don't inherently object to people living in horseboxes. I think it should be easier for people to live in cheaper and lower-impact ways like that. But I do have concerns about how my ex will consistently meet my child's needs in that situation. E.g. reliable water, light, heat, communication, a secure address (not being moved on) etc. Especially when they are not from a travelling background, so have no experience living that way, and presumably no contacts in the relevant community.

These concerns are not being answered because they won't even tell me they are intending to live in this horsebox, let alone discuss details like that with me.

I know this post is a bit vague in places, but I have to minimise the amount of information I give.

YANBU. I would escalate it with the court. That would or could at least force him to have a proper actionable plan in place instead of feeding pipe dreams to all parties involved, including himself.

i think it sounds really exciting for the kids

"I emailed asking if they are intending to move, and they are being very evasive and only confirming they intend to move "next year"

'Next year' is potentially only 9 weeks away, so that sort of response does sound evasive.

"I won't even know my child's location since it is by nature not a permanent address."

^ This is why you are NOT being unreasonable ... this, your ex's evasiveness, and the inference (from your posts) that there is a court order in place.

At this stage, I don't think the 'suitability' or condition of the horsebox is particularly relevant ... but ... it's unlikely to be great. Even quite basic horseboxes in reasonably sound condition do not come cheaply.

Actually although legally a horsebox isn't permanent accommodation, it's likely it would have a permanent address and for the purposes of your court order, I'd imagine your ex would need to confirm the horsebox was going to be kept in the one location.
tbh it sounds as though you're implying that you get to approve any change in accommodation rather than you have to be informed of any change in accommodation.
If it's the former then email saying ' as per court order, we require more details about your proposed change of accommodation before we can approve it'.
If it's the latter then your ex doesn't need to inform you until he is moving.Send an email saying 'as per court order, please outline when I can expect details of your new address'.
He sounds manipulative but you don't need to play into his dramas.
The horsebox is a distraction. He has to provide suitable accommodation. You need to know where he is going to be living.

Before I contacted your ex further, I’d contact my solicitor citing your concerns especially regarding the no fixed address and safety aspects of the conversion. I’d then contact your ex yourself with a reasoned and informed email. You are then not going in heavy with a solicitors letter. But at the same time, if he doesn’t play ball with you, you have at least started the process in an informal way.

So do you need to tell your ex when you are concidering to change your permanent or is this court order on restricting him so you get to control is life as i doubt any court order were the ex gets to approve or disallow a move.

As there would be outrage if an ex partner could tell a mother when and were they could move, inform yes fine but to spprove no way in hell.

@maisonettedweller, fair enough that you can’t ask the outright question then.

I would give your solicitor a heads up as it appears the requirement for you to approve accommodation, much less location, has been agreed by a court.

And sadly I think you will have to wait you have either been told of his plans by your ex, or more likely your ex has moved and then you find out, before you take action. Does the court order allow you to prevent overnight/any access if there is no guarantee of suitable accommodation?

I have no knowledge of these matters but I understand your fear of your child being housed in anything which may not be safe for them. If your ex chooses to live in a badly converted horse box that’s his choice.

my sister’s ex lives on a riverboat for the sole purpose of weekend access. Mon-fri he lives with his girlfriend. She doesn’t want my nieces staying at her house. Could this be something your ex is planning?

If any posters are doubting the likelihood of a person choosing to live in a horsebox, I have two words Hebden Bridge

There are plenty of people living off-grid in non-traditional structures up here. I do know a woman who lived in horsebox with two kids. They live in a house now and the kids seem unscathed by it. Wouldn't be my choice but there's a lot of it going on in places like Hebden Bridge.

What mummyoflittledragon said.

I think you have every right to know where your child will be for the 20% of the time they spend with other parent.

I think their vagueness about it rings alarm bells for me. If it was all cushty and smart, warm, fully kitted out etc, then surely they would have no issue in showing you pics etc.

Next year will soon be here.

*there would be outrage if an ex partner could tell a mother when and were they could move, inform yes fine but to spprove no way in hell."

In OP it says they both have to get permission from the other if either wants to move.

Incidentally OP could be a man and the ex a woman, from the way the posts read.

We're just going to move this to Relationships at the OP's request.

I wasn't getting anywhere, so I asked them straight if they were planning to live in a horsebox and they haven't confirmed that. Though they did find time to imply I was racist.

They said they'll give me more details nearer the time they move. Which I know perfectly well means they are just going to do it without any consultation/reassurance.

I feel for you OP, you clearly had a recognised abusive relationship to have a court order about this.

But you said yourself that when you were together you yourself proposed accommodation like this.
I don't think a horsebox, safely converted and in secure location(s) is an issue. You say he leaves far away and you have 80%. That's 11 days in 14 so I'm guessing part of his 20% is holiday times rather than a EOW and a midweek night set up.
That would reduce my concerns - your child would basically be only on "holiday" time in this horsebox, not his proper home.

You, by the sounds of it, have any right to know his plans according to your order - only when it happens. That doesn't make it a fait accompli. A judge can still order that it isn't suitable when you do find out.
But it may be perfectly suitable.

You should speak to your solicitor now about what action to take.

Dear ex, dd says you’re moving to a horsebox! While I don’t object, in principle, to it, it would depend upon whether it is in a permanent location, if it’s connected to mains water, sewage, electricity etc. And of course whether dd gets a private ‘bedroom’ in it, and can be kept warm, fed and clean, and generally looked after.

As you know, we are obliged to ensure we each know what care and where the other has for dd. I think you’re going to have to come clean with me!
Yous etc

I don't have a solicitor. I had no legal advice and represented myself in court. I'm just (literally, by a few pounds) over the income limit for Legal Aid.

I've already contacted someone else relevant who might have an opinion though.

No, I have to agree to it, before it happens. That means I have to approve their plans. Which they aren't going to tell me until it's too late, when they have already spent their money on converting it and don't have any left for a deposit on a flat, so have no alternative but to move into it. Otherwise they would have talked to me about the idea before buying the vehicle and committing themselves to this path.

Is it so unreasonable (regardless of court instructions) to think they might have said something like "I need to move next year. I'm thinking of converting a horsebox to live in. Do you have any opinion on/questions about that as a home for our child?" and answered my concerns about living conditions (in theory at least, at this stage)? Rather than not saying a word to me (though telling our child how great it will be) and then refusing to engage with any questions about it.

I would have consulted them, if I were thinking of moving to a horsebox, or a houseboat, or a house which needed a lot of renovation, or a commune, or any other significant change in living styles/practicalities. Though regardless of how well I addressed any of their concerns about it (real or pretend), I don't believe they would allow that to happen without going back to court. Unlike me, as I would be fine with it if they communicated properly about it and showed me they had sensible plans.

The only thing I could do then is suspend contact till I'm sure it's a suitable place for my child to live, but I wouldn't do that without proper advice. So will wait to hear back from this other person.

Hold your horses - it hasn't happened yet!

He might win the lottery between now and 'then'......no point you stressing yourself until/unless it happens...at which point you politely withdraw overnights until he sorts it/legal etc

"The only thing I could do then is suspend contact till I'm sure it's a suitable place for my child to live, but I wouldn't do that without proper advice."

Could you inform them of that intent now? So that if they then went ahead with this plan, they could be shown to have deliberately jeopardised contact arrangements, despite being given the opportunity to avoid doing so.

Just something along the lines of

Dear Ex,
As you are aware our child has informed me that you intend to dispense with conventional living by converting and moving into a horsebox as your main residence, while travelling from place to place.
You have refused to confirm or deny this.
You are aware that under the terms of our court order, I must approve any such plans, in order for this to take place, and to continue with an unapproved plan would be to jeopardise the contact agreement.
In the absence of your confirmation or denial of this intent, I believe that my only option is to inform you that I would not approve such a plan.
If you should choose to go head with such a change of residence in the absence of my approval, I consider that you would have deliberately set out to jeopardise your contact with our child.

Have the letter witnessed, sealed and delivered to him as a registered package. then ignore him till he makes his next move.

disclaimer: I have no idea whether this would hold up in court ... but I don't imagine he'd know either.

How frustrating for you. Your ex really is a childish idiot. I hope you get the answers you are looking for from the person you are consulting. I very much agree with the sort of letter ADish has outlined. I do think you should take some advice before doing so to ensure the wording is seen as non accusatory. If you need advice on the exact wording, you can post your question in legal and some knowledgable person will come along.

If he legally has to tell you in advance and he isn’t then you’re not being unreasonable, no. if the only way to make him tell you is to go back to court and you say that you’ve already taken those steps, there’s nothing more to be done and I wouldn’t stress over it. The court will find out what the refurbished horse box will be /is like and where it will be parked up and you can exercise your right to agree/disagree then.

What does the order actually say word for word ?

But why would your ex think you won't approve of this plan, when at the time you were together you suggested something similar?

I get that many people would think "some weekends and holidays in a horsebox - wtf?!". But actually plenty of people do it, and you previously suggested it.

Ellisandra it's not the idea of living in a horsebox per se that's the issue. It's how my ex intends to implement it that is the problem. There are safe ways and unsafe ways of doing so, and I want to make sure it's the former. Just as I would if they were renovating a derelict house (especially if they'd never done anything like that before and had no relevant qualifications).

It doesn't matter if I suggested living on Everest when we were together though (before having a child), they have to seek my agreement now, not then. And with details applicable to the current situation, not a passing idea we never properly looked into years ago.

I need to protect myself if nothing else, as it's possible I might be seen as an unfit parent for failing to protect our child from their potentially unfit living arrangements.

Just to say that I feel for you OP. My Ex has lived on a houseboat for most of our sons life. Sometimes it was being done up. It would have electricity, water, but there were safety aspects that were not clearly terrible, but always on the borderline. Like even getting on and off the boat. He’d often stay at his girlfriends house or his parents. Whilst these other places were more secure, he never provided his own for him.

We didn’t ever have a court order, however I always felt uncomfortable. Our son never had his own bedroom. I never had his girlfriends address. And yet Ex was constantly berating me because I moved away. I’ve given our son a nice stable home, it’s important.

There’s a really slack attitude, often from slack Dads, which has become acceptable in some alternative living arrangements. Sounds like your Ex is one of them. At least remind him there are standards every child, who has no control, should expect where they live. Sympathies.

This:

4.bp.blogspot.com/-ei11DvV-OdQ/T9S8X2BD6gI/AAAAAAAAChs/703GrDYey48/s1600/Kererra+Horse+Box.JPG

or this:

i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/08/01/article-2181966-14513DBA000005DC-374_634x464.jpg