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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Lies and debt, again and again...

100 replies

Pumkinfailure · 30/10/2017 17:30

I've posted about this before which makes me ashamed that I'm here once again and nothing has changed.
My DH is a great father and husband (apart from this huge issue) and I love him with all my heart and I'm genuinely broken by his actions and I need to splutter it all out to try and make some sense of it and my part in all of this.
Essentially he's always been crap with money, over the past 20 years there has been a pattern of him building up huge credit card debt, lying about it (it's the lies that are killing me), me finding out, him being remorseful and me bailing him out to the tune of probably over £100k over the years. This has happened perhaps 7 times, each time I say if it happens again he needs to leave, each time I dont follow through, he promises to change and then it happens again.
He's done it again, I found out today, another £10k in the last 6 months.
I don't follow through for a number of reasons- I love him, he's a funny caring man that keeps me sane, he's literally the best dad I've ever seen, I rely on him for all the school stuff/drop offs and pick ups and could not work without him.
Background- I was (until this month) a fairly high earner in a high powered professional job but for various reasons my wage has halved but my hours are staying the same so money a bit of a worry at present.
We have analysed why he behaves like this- he says he is scared to tell me when he is in trouble with money so buries his head in the sand a little debt spirals with interest. He feels that as a man he should be able to provide financially for himself.
The debt seems to build up because he works only school hours to facilitate my job and his outgoings (pays some of the household bills and food) are more than his incomings.
I thought we had sorted this last year (when I discovered £30k of debt) and took some of his household commitments off him. In retrospect I should have took them all and/or opened a joint account. We also looked at how he could run his business better to have a better income as he has a very good in demand trade that potentially should be earning him money. It seems he forgets to bill customers or simply doesn't charge enough, is not working smart, and he seemed to be getting on top of this so I thought.
So today I've discovered after bailing him out massively last year he's done it again. What on earth do I do?
Kick him out? But I love him and rely on him for the children.
Get him to give up work- but we can't manage on my wage currently now my circumstances have changed
Help him again with paying off the debt and running his business
Get him to work for someone else - but we have a son with health issues and one of us needs to be able to take time off with him if needed and I rely on my husband for this- if we were both employed I'm fairly sure one of us would lose our jobs soon enough.
So...if you've got to the end Thankyou! I don't know where to start or how to make sense of this, I'm sure I have a large part to blame in what's happened but don't know what to do next.
(And please don't print this in the daily mail or on the FB page as I suspect my friends may identify us from this but I've nowhere else to turn)

OP posts:
TheWorldIsMyCakePop · 31/10/2017 14:19

Oh my goodness. I'm so sorry to read this. Not that any time is good, but extra rubbish on your birthday. I was married to someone who was bad at finances and he hasn't changed.

Wishing you all the strength to sort things out. Would an au pair work?

WickedLazy · 31/10/2017 14:23

I know a man very similar to your dh, a seemingly nice, normal guy, tall, dark, handsome, family oriented. BUT he's in a lot of debt from crazy gambling, (more than his wife knows about, £1000's at least more). She adores him, gushes about him the same way you do, he's a fabulous dad (he's not, he's average, doesn't let her get out with her mates much, though he works less hours) etc. She's bailed him out loads of times already, and heard all the promise's of "never again". She even used some of her inheritance money from her parents to pay off his debts. Don't think she's ever had a penny back, her money is their money apparently. What she doesn't realise is he often gets stocious in the local bar, and tells people he loves her, as the mother of his kids, and because of how much she loves him, but he isn't in love with her and doesn't know if he ever has been. I feel so sorry for her everytime I see her now. She's admitted they don't have sex anymore, but thinks he's just "tired" all the time (he's admitted he's never really been attracted to her). Please be careful that your dh isn't using you!

ZeroFeedback · 31/10/2017 14:48

Happy Birthday Pumpkin(winner) Cake Flowers Wine

I am genuinely sorry to hear what has happened; and I'll bet you expected more for your birthday (and had a right to).

I won't make any assumptions whether splitting or trying again is the right thing to do. That is not my place nor the place of any other poster.

I would point out however that your love and appreciation for your DH does shine out from your initial post (at least to me) and there is no wonder you feel bereft.

What happens next is up to you; take some time to think it through in your own head, bearing in mind that the posters here will all project their own experiences into their answers - ranging from the "LTB, all men are deceitful bastards we are happier without" posters to the likes of me who have made mistakes in their lives and marriages, have (massive) flaws so can understand (but not condone) your husband's behaviour - so are probably biased the other way.

In my first (failed) business venture I ran up a lot of debt. My wife knew about most of it but not all.

I am prepared to be flamed for this but I did not lie to her as such - it was lies by omission. The reason? Well, it was hard to admit that something which had started so well and she had been a great support for had started to crash around me so dramatically.

Like a gambler I thought just one more job, one more month and things will get back on track and she'll never know what a fuck up I've been for the last 6-12 months.

The break through moment for me was dropping my daughter off at school one day. I felt so low and watching her skip into the classroom so happy meant an overwhelming sense of failure - to provide for her, my son and my wife - gripped me and I struggled to contain myself on the walk back to the car where I broke.

That day I started reaching out to people I knew and within a couple of weeks had some well paid contracting work.

I had to close the office, make people redundant, let go of being the boss and do work I really did not want to, but it meant I was able to repay the debts in full and put myself back into the position where I could have another go (albeit with the benefit of the experience of failure).

When my wife asked why I had made the sudden decision to close the business I told her I had always promised I would stop if our life, house etc was threatened and that time had come.

I had to ask her to lend me some money to cover the last bills (wages etc).

Did I tell her just how much I was in debt? No

Did she ask? No

Did I lie? Definitely by omission

I lied because I did not want her to think of me the way I thought of myself - as a failure.

Did I do any of it not caring about the consequences or thinking she should/would just accept it and help bail me out? Definitely not.

The male ego is an odd thing when it comes to being a provider. It's one thing I would see as a massive insult if someone questioned it. (Someone used the big car/small dick insult once in a parking row and I could only laugh. If they'd told me I was lazy and did not work hard they'd have hit a button)

That does not make it right, it does not mean I would feel emasculated if my wife earned more. It just means I can understand where your DH may have been.

Only you know whether you should keep going or even if you want to.

All I would say is there are ways he can repay the debts and make amends without you having to actually bail him out.

He can get a job. Get a loan to consolidate the card and pay it off over a manageable period from his own wages and contribute to the household and any new childcare/housekeeping commitments.

If he is willing to do these my argument would be positive towards him. If not, he probably is a self centred twat who does not care how his actions affect the rest of you.

My sincere best wishes for whatever you decide to do (apologies for the self indulgent length of the post though)

WickedLazy · 31/10/2017 15:08

ZeroFeedback So your wife still doesn't know the full extent of it. You're still lying and keeping secrets?

Jellyheadbang · 31/10/2017 15:12

Lying by omission is still lying. Hint: remove the words by omission and you are left with lying.

LaughingElliot · 31/10/2017 15:12

What a sad update. So sorry OP

ZeroFeedback · 31/10/2017 15:59

WickedLazy No, she does not know the full, final number.

She does know I came close to full financial failure and was worried about losing the house etc. She knows I fucked up.

I had a level of debts you could not hide. She knew the business was struggling, that I was having to fund it with borrowing on top of previous borrowing for a failed expansion plan.

She knows about the debts such as the company overdraft we had to consolidate jointly as I needed her income to show affordability to the lender (although I paid the loans from my own bank and income).

She knows about the joint investments I had to encash to repay debts. She knows about the car and other assets I sold, how much I got for them and where the money went.

She knows all but one credit card i.e. about 90% - 95% of the final number.

Why did she not know about that one? It's a crap excuse but there was more on it than I thought when we were talking it through and when I found out I could not bring myself to come clean. I could manage to pay it off myself by going without for a while so ... there we are.

As I said, I'm prepared to be flamed as I know that lying by omission is still lying.

I'm not trying to justify, excuse or condone it.

Hopefully I am helping to give a perspective on where Pumkin's DH's head may have been - but that may be no more relevant to her situation than the example of someone whose husband has a gambling problem she knows nothing about, has hidden all of his gambling debts, used her money to pay them off and been telling people down the pub that he isn't really in love with her.

Gazelda · 31/10/2017 16:17

OP, I’m so sorry to read your update.
You must be reeling, and wondering what the hell to do now.

Do you want to work it,out with him?
Does he want to work it out? If so, do,you believe/trust him?
It seems plain to me that the business is the root of this situation. Does he have an accountant? Are his books in any shape to be looked at and understood?

Wallywobbles · 31/10/2017 17:12

Time to spend some time with excel. Work out what every payment is.

From wHat I’ve understood he pays materials for his company with the credit card, does the work but doesn’t bill the client? That’s a ducking expensive hobby frankly, but isn’t a job.

Wallywobbles · 31/10/2017 17:20

I’d say it’s still worth getting an accountant to go through it all. Understanding it all would certainly help you both.

swingofthings · 31/10/2017 17:30

I'm so sorry you are going through this heartache on your birthday. Has he ever spoken to you each time you've bailed him out, explained why he got in that mess and what he was going to do about it.

What seems strange is the lack of communication between the two of you. You don't know what he spends his money on, you don't know if his business is struggling, you don't know if he has enough to pay the bills he is supposed to be paying, you don't know whether he's taken any actions to remedy the problem each time and haven't bothered to check.

I'm wondering whether part of the problem is that you are so deeply involved in your work that you've forgotten to care about what he is up too. As the househusband (mainly), he probably expects you to show some interest in him, even if his life is not as exciting and at some point, he has given up hoping for it, so this is his cry for attention, very much like kids.

Not that it is an appropriate response at all, but food for thoughts. Maybe your marriage can be saved if you would consider to have a significant re-juggling of your roles within your family and couple, however, for that, you would need to start talking about matters. Is this something you would be prepared to do and him too?

Pumkinfailure · 31/10/2017 19:20

Swingofthings- I think you've hit the nail on the head about me being so deeply involved in my work I've forgot about him. I thought we had a great relationship but when I asked him to leave he told me he's actually fed up with us and that he doesn't feel loved. I think every time we've been through the cycle and I end up working a bit harder/longer hours to pay off the debts I struggle to hide the resentment.

OP posts:
RedastheRose · 31/10/2017 20:47

Pumpkin he's said that about you forgetting about him and not feeling loved to push the blame for the breakdown of your relationship back on your shoulders! Don't let him blame you, he has put himself and you in this position and done it over and over again. If he had loved you and supported you as much as you loved him and supported him then he wouldn't have kept putting you in the position of working harder and harder and longer and longer hours to recover your financial position.

bestwayforward · 31/10/2017 20:54

You obviously live on a different planet to me, that's a enormous amount of debt. I really don't think you should even consider a joint account. Cut all his cards up an give him pocket money if you cant bear to lose this guy who really isn't a great dad btw.

Pumkinfailure · 31/10/2017 21:10

Thanks redastherose- kind words, I've spent my entire birthday crying and that's helped

OP posts:
himynameiss · 31/10/2017 21:51

Cocaine cocaine cocaine

Launderetta · 31/10/2017 21:52

Pumpkin,
Couldn't just read & run. I'm so sorry you're going through such a dreadful time & especially today of all days Flowers
Best wishes for the future.

Pumkinfailure · 31/10/2017 21:57

Thankyou Launderetta, that's really lovely.

OP posts:
Giraffey1 · 31/10/2017 22:29

I think his reaction speaks volumes. Has he apologised, said it’s his fault, said he understands how his lies and actions have made you feel? No, he hasn’t. He’s made it about something you’ve not done. I’m truly sorry, but I think that you may have reached the end of this particular road. It isn’t your fault. You tried, many times, but he just wasn’t willing to change and do things differently. Sending you massive hugs x

Jellyheadbang · 01/11/2017 04:56

himynameiss secret coke habit is the reason my ex 'd'p was in loads of debt. He didn't tell me tho, I had to put the pieces together and he still denies it despite me finding the physical evidence.
I was gutted as really loved him and saw a future for us. I really believed his stories about poor health and his previous divorce and redundancy were the reasons he gave for his debt.
we've been split for quite some time but I've only just learned about the coke habit and am devastated to realise our whole relationship was a lie and all the things that didn't add up were due to his habit.
I'm glad I escaped both for my sake and that of my children.
Just learned today he's been sacked from his reasonably high profile job, so glad I distanced myself.

Pumkinfailure · 01/11/2017 10:27

I don't think it's drugs, I hope it isn't. I think it is a huge combination of things- his inability to manage money, not having joint finances, his maladaptive thinking that he gets in a little mess and thinks something will turn up to sort it so he buries his head on the sand until he gets found out, lying because he's embarrassed, needing more support with his business, me enabling him.....where do I stop.
He's gone for now and I'm so so sad about it all. My children are sad too, they love their dad and want him home.

OP posts:
TheWorldIsMyCakePop · 01/11/2017 14:11

Thinking of you. I hope that as the days pass you will feel calm and set things in motion to formalise things. I'm guessing that as the sadness passes, you will feel a weight lifted off your shoulders.

RedastheRose · 01/11/2017 23:54

Pumkinfailure you will be sad as will the children but he will never change while you bail him out. He hasn't even properly apologised just tried to push the blame off onto you. The only way you could possibly have a future together without him dragging you and your children down with him will be if he has to face up to his actions and resolve the problem himself without your assistance and to do that he needs to stay moved out and stand on his own two feet. You may find that he finally grows up and proves to you that he can be the partner and father you all deserve. Alternatively, you may find that he slopes off and finds someone else to be his meal ticket. Whichever happens you will be better off.

Cakeandcookies · 29/03/2024 20:38

@Pumkinfailure I appreciate this is a post from some time back. I hope it ended up OK? What was the outcome as I'm in a similar situation xx

BMW6 · 29/03/2024 21:17

A 6 year old Zombie is not likely to get a decent response.

I suggest you start a new thread for your particular dilemma

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