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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Lies and debt, again and again...

100 replies

Pumkinfailure · 30/10/2017 17:30

I've posted about this before which makes me ashamed that I'm here once again and nothing has changed.
My DH is a great father and husband (apart from this huge issue) and I love him with all my heart and I'm genuinely broken by his actions and I need to splutter it all out to try and make some sense of it and my part in all of this.
Essentially he's always been crap with money, over the past 20 years there has been a pattern of him building up huge credit card debt, lying about it (it's the lies that are killing me), me finding out, him being remorseful and me bailing him out to the tune of probably over £100k over the years. This has happened perhaps 7 times, each time I say if it happens again he needs to leave, each time I dont follow through, he promises to change and then it happens again.
He's done it again, I found out today, another £10k in the last 6 months.
I don't follow through for a number of reasons- I love him, he's a funny caring man that keeps me sane, he's literally the best dad I've ever seen, I rely on him for all the school stuff/drop offs and pick ups and could not work without him.
Background- I was (until this month) a fairly high earner in a high powered professional job but for various reasons my wage has halved but my hours are staying the same so money a bit of a worry at present.
We have analysed why he behaves like this- he says he is scared to tell me when he is in trouble with money so buries his head in the sand a little debt spirals with interest. He feels that as a man he should be able to provide financially for himself.
The debt seems to build up because he works only school hours to facilitate my job and his outgoings (pays some of the household bills and food) are more than his incomings.
I thought we had sorted this last year (when I discovered £30k of debt) and took some of his household commitments off him. In retrospect I should have took them all and/or opened a joint account. We also looked at how he could run his business better to have a better income as he has a very good in demand trade that potentially should be earning him money. It seems he forgets to bill customers or simply doesn't charge enough, is not working smart, and he seemed to be getting on top of this so I thought.
So today I've discovered after bailing him out massively last year he's done it again. What on earth do I do?
Kick him out? But I love him and rely on him for the children.
Get him to give up work- but we can't manage on my wage currently now my circumstances have changed
Help him again with paying off the debt and running his business
Get him to work for someone else - but we have a son with health issues and one of us needs to be able to take time off with him if needed and I rely on my husband for this- if we were both employed I'm fairly sure one of us would lose our jobs soon enough.
So...if you've got to the end Thankyou! I don't know where to start or how to make sense of this, I'm sure I have a large part to blame in what's happened but don't know what to do next.
(And please don't print this in the daily mail or on the FB page as I suspect my friends may identify us from this but I've nowhere else to turn)

OP posts:
ChickenMom · 31/10/2017 06:05

Also speak to a solicitor about ensuring the house is safe. There was a story the other day about how a boy fraudulently took out a loan against the value of the property. See if there is anyway to protect against that happening. Having power of attorney or the property flagged so no loans can be taken. But a safe. Lock all ID documents away. Property deeds, passports, birth certificates. Make sure he doesn't have any access to any documents that can be used for loans. Take any iPhone or internet capable phone away from him. Get him a basic "calls, texts only" handset if such a thing exists. This is to make sure he isn't accessing gambling sites through apps on a phone

AstridWhite · 31/10/2017 06:32

I've thought about gambling and other women but it really seems to boil down to not earning enough.

Not earning enough isn't the problem, spending too much is the problem.

If all his spending is genuinely on his business and he's racking up debt with suppliers then you have to see the glaringly obvious, which is that his business is hugely loss making and you'd be better off if he didn't work at all.

But there must be must be more to it, or you'd have worked this out by now.

hiddley · 31/10/2017 06:49

Shouldn't he really have a separate business account and draw down a wage?

outedmyselfagain · 31/10/2017 06:53

If you expect his earning to take a back seat to accommodate your career and childcare then of course you should be financially linked.

Can he get small business support from somewhere to help him with his organisation and invoicing?

I think you need a joint account for all joint expenses. Bills, mortgage, kids classes etc. Anything to come out of this account needs to be an agreed expense.

If you can’t afford it then the meals out need to stop.

outedmyselfagain · 31/10/2017 06:56

Can I just say that given what has been written, if the DH was posting on here I think some people would be mentioning financial abuse.

LaughingElliot · 31/10/2017 07:05

Just to say that if he is gambling it doesn’t make him a terrible person. Gambling is an awful addiction and as with other illnesses people need support to overcome them. I know someone whose husband blew everything gambling but she stick with him and they sorted it out. It’s an illness. She was amazing and I admire her, she did a brave thing to stick with him through the bad times.

Quartz2208 · 31/10/2017 07:14

This is a tricky one as I agree some of elements do suggest financial abuse on your part (not wanting him on the mortgage, his outgoings dont match incoming, the refusal to be jointly financially responsible)

So the big question is what is this money going on

Also how happy is he facilitating your career at the expense of his

Snog · 31/10/2017 08:33

I don’t think you can sort this out without understanding exactly how the money has been spent and exactly how his business is performing. Presumably he needs to keep proper accounts for the business.
It should not be too difficult to analyse where the money has gone for the last six months.

If this has happened multiple times before did you look in Detail at how the debts were accumulated any of the other times?

Zaphodsotherhead · 31/10/2017 08:36

I'd say he needs to wrap up his 'business' and go and get a proper job. Show his wage slips. Take 'pocket money only' until he's paid off his debts. Yes, it looks like financial abuse, you dealing with all the outgoings, but really? What's the alternative? As a pp said, he is getting into deeper and deeper trouble knowing he will be bailed out every time. Take away the business and see if that's where the problem really lies...

Jellyheadbang · 31/10/2017 08:38

Sorry I never case I've missed anything but why aren't you paying all your bills by monthly direct debit? It might cost slightly more but at least most of your outgoings will be the same each month, one less thing to worry about if you haven't set it up already.

Jellyheadbang · 31/10/2017 08:39

Ps I'm not excusing his behaviour, he sounds like at the very least a complete dishrag and at the most a complete liar with multiple issues.
Well done for distancing yourself by name in some of the admin.
Good luck whatever happens.

TheClacksAreDown · 31/10/2017 08:54

It sounds like his business is loss making. So either he scales it right back, does a bit as a hobby with a very defined budget to work with, he gets a job or he just stops working.

Quartz2208 · 31/10/2017 09:12

But she does not want him to get a proper job as he has to be around to collect the children etc be there if they are ill

hiddley · 31/10/2017 09:17

Sod his business venture.
Hire a full time childminder in the home.
Tell him to get a job.

CakesRUs · 31/10/2017 09:27

Whether it emasculates him or not, a consequence of the situation he’s put you in means you have to take full control of the finances in your home. A small price to pay for what he’s done.

If you decide to stay with him, you really need to ride him on this. If your wages have been slashed in half, it could put you on the streets if he keeps it up.

Good luck!

Orangebird69 · 31/10/2017 09:35

I was thinking the same outed. This bit in particular struck a chord with me - I think asking for money, despite me constantly asking if he needs any is difficult for him.

Waiting for offers or having to ask for money is horrid - I've been there. It makes you feel like total shit. It's demeaning.

thecanaries · 31/10/2017 09:44

He's done a terrible thing.

However, bailing him out has just been putting a sticky plaster on the problem. He needed precessional help after the first time not bailing out as essentially it enables it (not blaming you here but how his brain will see it).

If he was an alcoholic, just removing the immediate problem ie pouring the booze
Down the sink is not the same as attending AA and nearly losing everyone. Yes the booze down the sink appears to fix the immeadiate problem (he can't drink) but it doesn't does it?

I'm NOT blaming you, but he needs to nearly lose everything (you need him to leave for the time being with him thinking it is permanent) he needs to then admit his problem by seeing the impact on his wife and children (family and friends all need to k ow) and THEN he needs to seek professional help and THEN you need to decide whether you go back into the relationship. If it were to happen again after this process then it Would be game over. But I do believe the way it's been handled before has not really helped the situation. Hope you
Get through it OP, sounds terrible.

TammyswansonTwo · 31/10/2017 09:53

A few things come to mind...

Either his business is making huge losses (I mean, forgetting to charge people? This man should not be running a business) or he's spending the money on something else (gambling, substances, something). That's an obscene amount of money.

Basically there are a few options but the only realistic one I see is that he has no access to money except that which you give him. You check his credit report monthly. You basically treat him like a child. If he's in a trade can he not contract for someone else? Lots of trades can pick and choose how much work they take on if working for a big company.

You say you're working the same hours for half the money? Can you find a different job?

Whatever you do, do not put him in a position where he has access to money, you pay it off and he starts all over again. If he's not on the mortgage can he get an IVA so he has to pay it off himself and no creditors will touch him with a barge pole?

ZeroFeedback · 31/10/2017 10:41

Putting aside some of the MN bias with respect to how things should work when the higher earner, name on the mortgage etc is male or female ...

It seems to me that your DH is making a fundamental mistake with respect to management of the business. I know, I did the same myself once.

That mistake is to mix or blur the lines between the business and personal finances.

He pays the business expenses on a personal credit card and, from the sounds of it, has the business income paid into a personal account (or one he treats as a personal account) or, even worse, takes cash without paying through a business account.

This is a recipie for disaster whether he invoices and gets paid on time or not - again I know as I was there when I first went into business. It allows a false sense of what money is what and allows you to put off things until the world comes crashing in “it’s okay if I use this bit for x as that bit i’ll Get in soon can pay the suppliers”

His accountant will have had conversations with him about it, mine was lovely and would roll her eyes at me and say “you really should not be doing that” along with various warnings about how HMRC or companies house could see things - but I did not listen until almost too late.

You need to meet with the accountant and chat about going Limited with both of you as Shareholders. There may be a way to have some of the money you have committed to his debts treated as an investment into the business and recoverable in a tax efficient way once he sorts the business side.

Your role should be a shareholder only, not a Director, if you do not want to get involved with the running of the business or potentially affected by any mismanagement issues in the future.

It will be painful for him to admit he has been doing it all wrong. It was for me, but he will have a huge sense of relief once it’s all sorted.

Get the accountant to set a salary for him. Base the split of your bills on that - the dividends etc can be split between both of you and put towards one offs like holidays etc which come just from your salary.

The business may be able to employ you to increase the efficiency of your joint drawings from the business but will depend on your income now.

The business should employ book keeping services from the accountants I..e have them manage the company bank account and pay wages, invoices etc.

Get a phone answering service to deal with all calls, new enquiries, customer service, supplier accounts etc - I use one which can do all this for £69 pm

Invest in some cheap software for generating invoices and quotes (loads out there and his accountant may have a favourite). My phone service will even call out chasing invoices if I ask them.

Like you say, it is about working smarter. He may have to face facts that the business is a bad one, but this would be a last, structured way to test it.

Hopefully it will be that he is, like many entrepreneurs, good at the fun, skillful bit but crap at the admin side. There are many people and services able to take this burden and it is not a sign of being crap at your business that you delegate this stuff out. I actually found it led to me being able to concentrate on the income generating parts to pay a relatively small amount to have someone take care of the admin.

I hope this is something you would both consider. If he can’t see this is a good option for the sake of both of you, your marriage and kids as well as his own sanity (as I say i’ve Been there) then he probably is in cloud cuckoo land and needs to get an employed position and hand over all the financial reigns for the time being

Pumkinfailure · 31/10/2017 10:44

I haven't properly read all the recent posts but re financial abuse I constantly ask him if he's ok for money or needs money transferring into his account. I would never withhold money from him and I couldn't be clearer that my money is his money. The most recent debt was totally and utterly avoidable, this will probably out me but it was fines for not filing his tax returns for the last 3 years. He told me he'd filed them but he didn't and then has accumulated fines for the past 3 years that he's been ignoring and hiding. There was simply no need to get those fines other than laziness, he didn't even owe any tax.
He's gone now.

OP posts:
ZeroFeedback · 31/10/2017 10:47

Sorry, also meant to say that he is probably best getting some advice on his pricing model to make sure that he is charging the “right” prices. I have recently invested in a start up where the fantastic trades genius behind the business could not bring himself to charge what he should. We had some conversations about how he values his time and have set a structure that will get the market we want/need without leaving him feeling like he is ripping people off

ZeroFeedback · 31/10/2017 10:51

Ahh okay. Fines for not filing tax returns and not having to tax to pay probably means he has not been using his accountant for the last three years - again more common than you might think even if it does not excuse it.

Even more a reason to get an accountant actively involved before he even thinks about continuing with the business rather than getting an employee role.

Hard to do but again much less stressful than what he’ll have had for the last 2 years worrying about when HMRC were going to catch up with him

Pumkinfailure · 31/10/2017 13:47

Thanks for your helpful replies zero. I've asked him to leave, it's my birthday today and I've spent it crying and trying to work out how to sort this mess. Then I realised from his thread that if I sort it I'm enabling him again and I can't my head past the lies, and actually this current debt was so unnecessary- not about him not earning enough or even me being financially controlling- simply down to laziness and lies about not filing his tax return .
I feel bereft and sad.

OP posts:
Jellyheadbang · 31/10/2017 14:10

Oh poor you OP happy birthday. I know it seems crazy now but see this as your gift to yourself, freeing yourself from a life of anxiety and mistrust. This might be the jolt he needs to enable him to reach a point of maturity and responsibility but I very much doubt it.
You need a break from this. Your choice now is to either micro manage everything for the rest of your lies or to cut your losses and build a new life where you are not always anticipating nasty surprises.
Who knows what joys the future will bring?
Hugs x

Jellyheadbang · 31/10/2017 14:12

For what it's worth, I'm a single mum and have ended more than one relationship because of lying. In my opinion it doesn't matter what the lies are about, if you're being perpetually lied to then you're not in a safe, stable and secure position. It's anxiety provoking and is not good role modelling for our children to keep bailing people out and forgiving them. The liar just gets away with it then goes on to even more elaborate deceptions as they know you have no boundaries.

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