Are men and women growing apart generally?

[Lifeisntbad]

Just had a chat with a friend about this. My male and female acquaintances sometimes (with some exceptions) seem so different in outlook that I wonder about this. Obviously they are different from each other as well.
In my immediate circle of 40 /50 somethings the women are generally resourceful independent sociable and open. Many (not all) of the men are depressed, with no enthusiasm, slightly isolated and in some cases a little bitter.
While in one way gender differences seem to be blurring which can only be a good thing, in other ways men and women seem increasingly on different paths, coming together perhaps for having children and then diverging again.

so what aren’t women ultimately responsible for then?!

Choosing the right partner, making sure their partner takes on an equal burden, leaving if they don’t etc etc etc....

What exactly do men have responsibility for? Because it sure as hell sounds like you are saying that they aren’t even responsible for their own behaviour or choices!!

And no, it’s not rocket science so why the fuck do so many men find it so hard?!

Yes Offred i can certainly see it would be tough unless you're very well off, and even then not easy. I think you should stick with your claim on the house even if he stays there until the kids are older. The cash will be with you long after the social criticism is forgotten.

I'm saying they ARE responsible! Personally i think Tammy's lovely DH sounds less than lovely for causing her "massive exhaustion" by not doing his share.

And Tammy I wasn't mansplaining. Just wondering why despite complaining about the patriarchy you don't actually get your DH to step up. A fair question.

It’s not Tammy’s job to get him to step up. Plus men who do it in the first place don’t listen... you are essentially asking someone who is perfectly happy being selfish to willingly become more selfless.

My husband let me get suicidally depressed after our twins, I left almost exactly a year after I asked him to go to counselling and he refused. As soon as I left he suddenly could work from home, do pick ups and drop offs, do 40/60, and wanted to go to counselling...

Literally watching me in total desperation wasn’t enough, it was only when he lost something that he changed... and this is a very common situation...

The fair question is ‘why doesn’t he already understand?’

(And the answer is because sexism)

That’s part of the point...

A great deal of this shitwork is important and it is a privilege that men can just not be bothered about it. A privilege because women do it, by default.

There is a massive difference between finding joy in whatever you do and being born to be good at unpaid domestic/caring labour...

This has been covered upthread anyway...

The shitwork needs doing, ‘I don’t want to’ ‘I don’t like it’ ‘I CBA’ or ‘I just don’t notice’ are not sufficient reasons for not doing it...

Women only do it/notice it because we have been socialised to in childhood and because we end up doing it by default when adult men ‘don’t notice’...

“men, for better or worse, are less fussed about stuff always being tidy, clean, and in order.”

Who gets judged if a man and woman live together, and it is messy and/or dirty? I can assure you it isn’t the man. Women are made to care from very early on.

“Different priorities” just feels like a mealy-mouthed way of implying that men have far more important things to do than clear up after themselves like a fully-functioning adult

If you don’t notice, don’t want to, CBA, don’t like it then tough titty, it needs doing and it is just as much your responsibility as your wife’s so if you want a long happy relationship you’d better shape up because women are getting increasingly intolerant of being dumped with all the shit you think you are too important to bother with...

Offred is absolutely right. He lives with the babies. He knows what they need. I'm not going to be the nagging wife constantly asking him to do x, y or z. I would rather do it myself. You have to understand the social conditioning that historically accompanies motherhood. Even though I'm a feminist, I've still grown up in a society that teaches me that this is my role, my work to do, my responsibility and I should be able to handle it without complaint. I struggle to ask for help, it makes me feel like a failure. When our twins were born and very sick and one in hospital for two months, we went into survival mode and honestly we are only just coming out of it now. There's so much he does do that it's very difficult to raise the things he doesn't do without it seeming ungrateful and like an attack (there's that conditioning again - that I should be grateful for what I get, which is a lot more than most).

And so many men persist in this learned helplessness/superiority and then can’t understand why their wives don’t have sex with them anymore... is it surprising? If you behave like a helpless child why would an adult woman be even remotely attracted to you?

And Tammy - twins does get better! I know it feels like it will never end but mine are 8 on Monday and they are lovely...

it is more possible than ever before for men to be more involved with their children and they are, by and large, choosing not to.Women still lack the same degree of freedom to choose.It’s simply not true to imply that women need to spend even more time seeing how badly done to men are
Amen to that.

And yy ‘getting your h to grow up’ is just another shitwork job to add to the list... it increases your workload immensely...

Offred- I agree, not Tammy's job to ask him to step up. But most people in this life are selfish and take what they can get away with. Without a fight you don't get much. You can't just refuse to have the fight and blame it on conditioning.

You clearly don’t understand what it is like to be a woman buried under a mountain of shitwork, unfulfilled, unvalued, just about keeping your head above water, often sinking, feeling desperate and pulled in a million different directions, under scrutiny, fearing judgement and with virtually no power to change anything without the permission of someone else.

The constant vigilance of ensuring that everything is divided equally also falls to women, and it’s their fault if things become unequal because they allowed it

No, what i’m saying is ‘men who have chosen to have a family, those excuses are not good enough and are actually quite insulting’

Nowt to do with people of both genders who choose to be single.

(And also if you have a child just not doing the shitwork related to the child for any of those reasons even if you live separately)

BossaDad did you miss the IF in the sentence?

Men shape up IF you want to be with women.

If you don't, do what you like in your own homes, we don't care.