Mil doing strange things again, can't work the woman out.

[Chamonix1]

So we are due baby number 2 in Dec, mil and fil were happy (mil more so as fil couldn't get his head around anyone having more than 1 child!?)
Anyway, always had a fractured relationship with them, it's intense and seems to be fine when absolutely nothing is done that could possible offend or upset mil (it's very easy to do this, we had tears because we didn't look excited enough when we bumped into them for example).
They love dd (4) and often pester to take her, recently less so.
They usually like to see us a lot, again recently less so.
Yesterday they took daughter whilst we had a scan, they had asked to take her for the whole day and night, as dd would enjoy this we agreed and we got some boring adult life stuff sorted.
When we dropped dd off we were 15 minutes late as I was rushing family to a local airport and traffic was bad. We pulled onto the drive and they both came out and the following happened-

1. "we want to get out straight away before the weather turns we want to go on the kayak! And we are using our sons old life vest for your daughter.
2. where is our grandchilds first day at school photos (already told them they're on the big camera and not yet on the computer to send out)
3. (MIL) I've bought this book it's all about dressing daddy up in silly outfits, what I'm going to do is cross "Daddy" out and wrote "grandad".

This all sounds petty now I've written it. But considering we've been "told off" and "sat down" for pet talks about not greeting them properly when they arrive, had tears about not being included and pushing them out of our daughters life (she loves them so much, I honestly don't know how they think that's happened if we push them out) and had rage off fil in several occasions for upsetting mil for not being loving etc I can't believe they think it's fair to act like this.
This really is the tip of the iceberg I cannot go into all the detail I'd be here all year. If I'm honest, I've found mil's behaviour hugely toxic over 6 years and she's ramping herself up again just before new baby arrives. Like she did with dd and every special occasion.
The book thing has upset me and this husband so much. Can you imagine if I shoved a book under her nose "look this is a book all about Nana, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to cross "nana" out and write MUMMY"
Dd is having trouble adjusting already to the idea of a sibling and came home on Monday (after a day with these people) really angry and upset saying (for the first time) that we won't love her anymore and there's only time for the baby when it's here
She says a lot this week "daddy doesn't love Me" which is heartbreaking, he works away mon-fri so she sees very little of him.
Surely a sane Nana would encourage her granddaughter to love her daddy, not so strange things that would confuse and upset any 4 year old.
I really truly believe she is trying to turn our daughter on us, just as she accuses me of doing with her son.
I'm sad that we can't seem to manage a nice normal happy and healthy relationship with them but I'm fed up of jumping through hoops and trying to include them both as much as I can and make them feel special (they get invited to every single thing that dd is involved in, bought sentimental presents on those special occasions, messages replied to and pictures sent off dd between weekly visits etc and I try and show interest in them both). After yesterday it was clear I've done something to upset, mil made it very obvious and she had this nasty look on her face, proud of the thins she had just said that she knew would hurt.
This has turned into a huge ramble, I honestly don't know what it'll achieve but I needed to let it all out.
She sabotaged my last pregnancy and I can see her edging in again, it's just such a shame

I feel pathetic reading that back.
It's the way those 3 things were dished out as soon as we arrived. We both felt under attack, unwelcome and like we had done something seriously wrong. They were not happy bunnies and to be honest we were made to feel like naughty children.
Hopefully someone will see what I mean.

Chamonix

Congratulations to you on your pregnancy.

How much more are you going to take from these people before you really do say enough and be in no contact with them?. What is still stopping you? If its your H or your fear of being the bad guy here those are frankly poor reasons for not being in no contact.

You have written about your ILs at length before now and nothing has changed. This is the woman after all who amongst other things fed your DD lemons (giving her a rash) and I also seem to recall them using a rope around her neck or upper torso when they were playing "cowboys". Why are you both still putting your DD in their presence at all; they are neither fit people to be looking after a goldfish let alone your DD.

Of course she is trying to turn your child against you; this is precisely what disordered of thinking people like your MIL do!!!. And please do not give your DD that book either!!!. This process has already started as well long before now and if you do not already realise that you will soon do. I would also think that your as yet unborn child will be made either her scapegoat or the golden child as well. They will therefore inflict similar emotional harm on that child too.

This is part of one of my previous replies to you:-
"Your job here amongst many is to protect your child from his parents malign influences. He may still want a relationship with his dad but it certainly does not follow that you have to. I think they have done more than enough emotional harm to the two of you already and they will do similar harm to your child if she is left with them even if you are there. Look at how your DH has turned out at their hands, he is totally afraid of his mother and his dad has allowed that to happen. Your H does not have your child's back or yours because of fear, obligation, guilt and his own inertia".

His parents are dysfunctional and abusive and you are using these children as a buffer between them and you. That has to cease. Your boundaries re these people are still far too low (stop also with this including her in anything and everything to do with DD as well let alone the sentimental presents) and your H is still very much in his own fear, obligation and guilt re his parents. His parents are wreaking your own family unit and you're still seeing them. That has to stop as well. You are both being the architects of your own familial demise otherwise and is that what you want?. I would hope not.

The book won't come home. It will be kept at there house I'm sure. I'm going to have to message father in law and request the book is either kept as it is or thrown away because dd is having real issues adjusting to sharing mum and dad and that doing things like that really aren't going to help.
They of course will not know what the issue is.
I'm going to have to start the slow process of detaching again. We had distanced ourselves but they push and push back in.
I vision myself stood in a shop, coming across a book "Nana and me" and then thinking to myself "I am going to buy this book, then I'm going to cross Nana out of it and change it to mummy and THEN I'm going to wave it proudly under mil's nose" my instant reaction was, seek professional help! As I came ever imagine thinking it was a good idea, thinking it was a nice thing to do and then doing it.

One of the main reasons we still see them is because we cant cope with the abuse when we don't. Really really is exhausting I just want to enjoy 1 pregnancy. I fear I'm not allowed.**

Chamonix

One or even both of your own parents taught you how to people please as well. Your own inherent people pleasing behaviour is costing you and your own family unit here dearly. Please seriously consider seeing a counsellor to deal properly with this; BACP are good and do not charge the earth. Such an investment in you will be worth it.

www.whatiscodependency.com/codependent-people-pleaser/

Yes, I probably do need to. That in itself scares me. My mother taught me to sacrifice myself to keep other happy. She is still doing this herself at 59.

One of the main reasons we still see them is because we cant cope with the abuse when we don't.

No. That is still not a good enough reason for you both to keep on seeing these disordered people. You both need to become a lot stronger with these people in terms of boundaries. Your H has been trained from soon after babyhood to serve them so causing his own inertia and your own people pleasing behaviours have also played right into their hands. His mother wants to play mother to your children and freeze you both out of their lives. I have no doubt at all that if you continue as you are you will lose your own relationship with one or both of your children.

If you do cut all contact and they still contact you then you must and should use the police and legal means to stop this unwanted harassment of yourselves. Your family is systematically being destroyed from the inside out and you are both architects in that demise. His mother in particular is a dangerous individual to be at all around.

Would you have tolerated this from a friend, no. His parents are no different.

There is no probably about it Chamonix; you really do need to see a counsellor re your own people pleasing behaviours. Your mother taught you how to people please at great cost to you and I would think she is discontent as well.

You do not have to repeat the same old your mother (and her own mother likely) taught her; break the cycle of codependency. You still have a choice here so what is it going to be?.

Oh it's these freaks.

Why keep asking for advice if you don't take it ?

Goodness me, they're unpleasant aren't they?

I'd be distancing myself from them, just for the sake of you and your DH. But the way they're treating your daughter makes this even more important.

Stop trying to include them in everything. This is only making it worse. It makes them feel that they have a right to be involved in your children's lives.

I haven't read any of your previous threads, but reading the bit Attila quoted made my blood run cold. What are you thinking leaving them in charge of your child?!

I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but it does sound like you and your DH have both been brought up to behave in a certain way, and that isn't doing any of you any good. But for the sake of your DD and your future child, you need to stop letting these people having this level of involvement with you.

You should never see anyone because you're afraid not to

Block them. Block them everywhere. Report them if they harass you.

Do not message FIL about the book. You need to stop allowing them contact with your daughter. It doesn't matter how much she loves them now. She is 4 and does not know that they are emotionally and psychologically abusive. You need to protect her from them.

Both you and your DH need individual counselling to help support you removing his deeply toxic parents from your life.

If his parents truly loved their grandchild, they wouldn't do this to here. They are manipulative, controlling and cruel. No child should be exposed to this. You AND your DH need to stand up to protect your child.

Oh dear she sounds like my MIL (she tantrumed because she only got a card, present and visit on mother's day, we didn't make enough fuss of her!) My approach is the same I would take with a tantruming child. I ignore the bad behaviour, don't respond to the tantrum and don't change my behaviour because of it. I'm hoping when she sees it doesn't work on me she will stop. It does work on DH though .

The way they have upset your DD about the new baby is unacceptable though and I agree you need to protect DD from this. I would tell PIL that because DD has come home so upset about it they won't be seeing her unsupervised again. Their actions have consequences.

If you cut them out they will portray themselves as victims for the next twenty - thirty years! And their victimhood will leak in to their lives.

Before you attempt NC, try a version of what I have started doing to my parents. I'm not going to tell you that they feel or act chastened or apologise but they think they know the things that 'set me off' and they don't want me to be 'awkward' telling them that when they said that I feel reprimanded. When they say that I feel judged.

My parents will actually re-tell an event I've just told them but they'll correct my perception of what happened. I go all psychiatherapist on their asses now, it drives them mad. I say ''do you understand what you did there, you weren't there but you still see fit to correct my perceptions of a situation that happened to me?".

They would look at each other and eye roll but now they are careful what they say around me. And proper order. They should be. They invalidated me for decades and that is their default.

However, I think it takes different strengths and different skills to do this rather than NC.

It requires the ability to understand exactly what it is about their behaviour that is dysfunctional in this moment and to calmly recognise it and call them on it.

NC is going to ramp them up and if you ever need their help with childcare they are going to have you over a barrel so I wouldn't go NC until you are clear enough in your head what it is precisely about their behaviour that is dysfunctional/damaging/invalidating....
Otherwise there'll be an excrutiating feeling of unsolved drama for decades.

"Dd is having trouble adjusting already to the idea of a sibling and came home on Monday (after a day with these people) really angry and upset saying (for the first time) that we won't love her anymore and there's only time for the baby when it's here sad"

You feeling like naughty children when you arrive is one thing. This is altogether different. This is the really serious issue.

A child of mine would not be left alone with them.

Is your mother in law jealous of you?? Some mothers want to be the only woman in their sons life! Reduce contact slowly.

The key question here is how your DH feels.

Because if he is on board then abuse or no, it is fully possible and desirable to cut them out.

I think you are about to hit tipping point. I did, when my children were born. It's one thing letting stuff be water off your own back. It's not possible with children. Mama Tiger won't allow that. Your Mama Tiger is going to rear her head, which is good.

You also get to the point where - if it's just you, or just you the couple, you can emotionally, mentall screen it out (as long as partner is on your team). Again, it's not possible to do this with children. It doesn't just hugely affect them, it hugely affects the core of you family and the way it operates. You can't keep that secure from them any more, their relationship with your child is their way 'in' to destroy from the inside.

Hopefully -for your daughter's sake especially - this will be your tipping point. I really hope that by the time she is 7 she doesn't even remember them.

Forget about you and your dh's feelings. Your dd is being taught that daddy doesn't love her. This is absolutely shocking and you need to get her away and keep her away from these people.

One question: why are you allowing them time alone with your child?

I do not understand why you are rewarding their bizarre and unpleasant behaviour by allowing them to look after your child. I'm going to suggest that you stop leaving her alone with them and that you definitely stop PANDERING to their shitty behaviour by inviting them to everything.

You need to be strong, OP and go lc or nc. As Atilla says, utilise the police if necessary. Time to get serious no atop allowing them to poison your child against you.

I think there's a host of reasons this has been allowed to continue. At the start I thought it was all in my head, I tried to fix things.
Things tend to improve so you think all is sorted then it starts up again.
DH has been hugely hurt by it all and is desperate for normal parents who just love him.
I lost my own dad when I was little and I don't want to be the person who puts a barrier up between DH's parents and us in case he blames me later on.
Everyone around me thinks they are needy but nice people.
My own family although they've seen how horrible in laws can be thinks you should just make up and move on and I really struggle to be the person who pulls it all apart whilst everyone around me thinks I'm doing the wrong thing.
DD enjoys their company and I'll be the evil woman who tore their son and grandchild from them.
I doubt myself a lot.

They've just dropped her back, announced dd said she was sad that Nana wasn't there at her jest day of school (dd has said she didn't say this) and then she walked up to my Callander to decide when she was picking her up.
I knew that she would come today to drop her off (she never usually does) because she wanted to cement in the things she said yesterday and that's exactly what she did.
I hid upstairs "getting ready" and listened to them both bag DH about how they weren't there on her first day, how it upset dd and when they are going to pick her up (we had already said they could do this Wednesday but it's not enough clearly).
I don't know why she feels entitled to walk up to my Callander, nose through and find a date that suits her. Fucking no boundaries at all.
Dd has come back happy, this time. I'm just angry now. Just feel like I'm going mad and nobody understands why I have an issue with them.
I'm an adult I know I shouldn't care about other people and just protect dd.

You have no boundaries with these people - you let them walk into your house and abuse you and continue to abuse your dd.

They are never going to realise for themselves that they are in the wrong and should stop intruding and stop crossing boundaries. Most parents would simply not put up with this behaviour. Most parents would not allow pick-ups or time alone that may hurt their children.

However you and DH don't seem to be able to put boundaries in place and literally hide from the problem while the ILs walk all over you. But until you grow a backbone and put a stop to it they are going to continue to damage your family

... and I suspect that you're not really listening to any of this, just because your DD seems happy now

Well, I am listening.
But it's real life.
I'm not ignoring it I'm of course still hurt and angry but I'm glad dd hasn't come home sad.
Most parents don't have to deal with such dysfunctional pushy people.
I was 18 when I had dd, I didn't see this all unfolding its hard suddenly deciding that against everyone else's opinion you're going to banish your child's grandparents.
I love dd and do want to protect her.

Is your daughter genuinely happy? Or, has she learned to modify her behaviour so as not to antagonise her grandparents. Did she really want them there for her first day of school or is she saying she did because she knows what Granny would do if she didn't?

She's a small child being manipulated by 2 adults who see her as a possession. They don't really love her. They love the idea of people seeing how 'wonderful' they are. You need to protect your daughter. Continuing to expose her to these people is already modifying her behaviour. She's learning that the only people who count are Granny & Grandad. Her needs and happiness will always come second because she's not important enough. Do you want her to live her life with that lesson?

Well first thing you can do-

'Hi MIL, DH just said you were using the calendar to decide on pickups, just to let you know it's actually out of date- so no good- let us know what days you are free and we can work something out that suits everyone'

Then make sure you don't.

No, my daughter at 4 is enjoying the 2-1 attention she receives. She loves it. She is happy to see them as she gets what she wants from them. At 4, I think this is how children are.
She never said she wanted them there at her first day, I asked her if she said that and she said no. She said she didn't care.
Her Nana made that up to make us feel bad, my daughter wouldn't have cared two hoots who dropped her off and picked her up she just loved school. She didn't even care that I was there!
She's very confident and bolshy and has her grandparents jumping through hoops to entertain her. They gladly do this and she is a bit of a pre madonna in their company which I detest, they don't say no to her she gets everything and anything she wants from them.