Social class disagreement

[Lavenderfly]

Hi, I'm very upset about a disagreement I had earlier with my DP and I don't feel like I articulated myself properly:

DP is middle class but came from poor immigrant parents who broke the social immobility myth, comes from private school and property / restaurant owning family. Earning above normal tax bracket rate in IT private sector.

I am working class, living in social housing and a single parent to a child from previous relationship. Earning not a great deal more than London living wage in IT public sector.

We both have undergrad degrees, driving licenses, full time professional jobs and enjoy similar hobbies / interests. He manages a team and I do not.

Our disagreement relates to opportunities from members of working class and middle class. These categories are blurred and difficult to define nowadays, but based on your own interpretation - do you feel that working class people have less opportunities to succeed than middle class people?

Apologies for it being so long!

What was said that upset you?

Private schooling lends one exposure to the subtle mannerisms and vocabulary of the upper middle classes. With these subtle tells one can "pass" and enter into certain jobs and workplaces.

Without them you're fucking banned.

Is that the issue?

What's upset you though? That he disagrees at all? Or was he nasty about disagreeing?

Loads of people believe social mobility is easy but they're wrong, obv. He shouldn't be being shitty about his opinions though.

Middle class private school education opens up a whole heap of opportunities not available to working class people. Buy it is possible for a working class person to achieve these things just a lot harder. Why has this upset you? Me and DH disagree on a lot of things but in an amicable way. Has he acted like an arse about it?

Educationally private schooling gives an advantage. At the University I used to work at 30% of my students were privately educated whereas only 7% of the general populace is privately educated. These stats are a few years old.

There is the advantage of knowing people that move within certain circles. For example one of my students had an internship at the UN HQ in Geneva, her Aunt worked there.

Your BF parents are immigrants and that means they had the wherewithal to take a big risk and leave their home country. It means that at their very core there will be a drive to improve themselves.

Plus are you really talking about class as the poster above mentioned such as mannerisms, where people shop and all the other social minutiae that is insidious in British culture or are you talking about income or in fact both. Because there are many clues that give away peoples backgrounds.

Social mobility is very hard within British societY.

However was he saying everyone can pull themselves up by the bootstraps? Not everyone can. Of six dc I am the only one who ever made money and married a man who was distinctly not WC. I educated myself out of that life, none of my siblings did. Who knows why I out of all of us had the drive, I did just hate being poor though.

Official report in social mobility at U.K. gov website,

www.gov.uk/government/news/state-of-the-nation-report-on-social-mobility-in-great-britain

I don't think your dp is middle class and there are a few levels of working class.

www.bbc.com/news/magazine-22000973

upper middle class comes to an end at one point unless you jump into aristocracy. the final distinction between upper middle and the upper class is old money so in some ways upper middle is as high as most will go strictly speaking of classifications.
but no matter how you cut it, someone with more money more cultural capital better education and more family support will have more opportunities to succeed.

Surely the difference between you and him is you are female and with children, therefore earning spectacularly less than him. Partly no doubt in return for the greater security of public sector conditions because you can't take gambles and he can?

I became upset, I guess, because I feel a bit uneasy with the advantaged telling the disadvantaged that there are no issues?

Maybe it was pride or something.

I gave an opportunity example of property owning. His parents have a readily available deposit for him to purchase property to lease. His aunt has also offered this. He has been offered flats at different times by family friends for discount or a discounted share in a property. I believe that this is opportunity that is widely unavailable to WC. I don't think it is something that all MC people have.

Is this a fitting example of opportunity in this sense? He disagreed and stated that death and inheritance provide the same opportunity to WC.

I also became upset because he had misunderstood my feelings towards advantaged classes.

I don't have ill feeling towards people in a better position than I am, whether they earned their place or had it readily available. But I think it is important to understand that these advantages / disadvantages do exist.

He outrightly stated that nepotism doesn't exist, none of his school friends got to where they are now through favours. I thought that was absolutely ridiculous.

He disagreed and stated that death and inheritance provide the same opportunity to WC
Just how out of touch is he? He does realise that some people rent their whole lives doesn't he and therefore will not have any substantial inheritance to pass on? Even if they do own it is very different receiving an inheritance when in your 60s when parents die (if not gobbled up by nursing home fees). Having a deposit when you are 20 means you can get on the property ladder early and put money towards paying off a mortgage rather than making a landlord richer.

His parents have a readily available deposit for him to purchase property to lease. His aunt has also offered this. He has been offered flats at different times by family friends for discount or a discounted share in a property

He has no idea how fortunate that is, and he needs to get his head out of his arse.

I read a really good analogy for how privilege works.

There was this guy who wasn't a great swimmer - it was something he'd learned to do in adult life and something he felt proud of. So he decides to swim out over a coral reef quite some way while on holiday. People suggest that he should wear flippers and maybe even a life jacket but he rejects this advice. On the way out he's a brilliant swimmer - strong, secure, unfettered by flippers or other unnecessary equipment. He feels really proud of his achievements, of how well he has learned to swim, how independent he is and how beautiful the coral reef is. He feels blessed.

He turns around to go back, starts to swim and doesn't move. He's puzzled. He's swimming just as hard, harder but he's not moving. He then realises that there was an undercurrent towing him out but that he will have to swim against it on the way back. He's filled with doubt at his own ability, curses himself for not listening to the safety advice. He makes it back but it's much harder and he's exhausted. He doesn't feel like he's a great swimmer at this point.

I think that's what social privilege is like. An undercurrent that pulls you along. Poverty is like the current working against you. You can be just as good a swimmer, maybe better but never even realise. That's why it's so important that we at least recognise privilege.

How long have you been together? They're fairly fundamental differences of opinion that I think you will struggle to find a meeting on minds over.

Please ask him to read class in the 21st Century by Mike Savage. Actuallly I recommend it to anyone With a passing interest in class division and inequality.

OF COURSE there are still class divides and it's extremely hard if you are born poor to get out of that.

What he is saying is ignorant and smacks of someone who only really mixes with middle class people.

Take for instance the example of private schooling. Average pupils from private schools do better than bright pupils from comps.

The advantages of the rich / middle class start from when they are babies. The gap is so big by the time they get to secondary that it's insurmountable.

Thanks for all of this help. I became emotional during the disagreement and that hindered my ability to articulate what my point about privilege was. I had a dysfunctional upbringing as did many of my school friends. He feels that dysfunction is equally a problem in middle class and isn't a disadvantage for WC alone, that's what did it and I got cross.

I wanted him to understand from a disadvantaged point of view, but he couldn't. He is classified as an ethnic minority but not one that is heavily featured in bias issues in my memory. So I couldn't use this to demonstrate privilege as I don't have any knowledge of him experiencing disadvantage due to race.

The links are great, I will use these for reference!

He's wrong, absolutely.

His ignorance is breathtaking.

Frilly we have been together almost 5 years.

I always say 'absence of opportunity' is what hampers social molibity. Opportunity starts with being encouraged as a child to do well at school, parents discussing career possibilities and helping to facilitate this by arranging appropriate work experience. Tutoring or sending kids to private school so they get the best grades for the top universities and offering financial support at uni.
I'm from a WC background and to my parents you got any job or training scheme on leaving school, while not all WC parents are like mine, it's harder for WC kids like me to break into professions as we have no points of reference to steer us in the right direction

The UK has very low social mobility for a variety of reasons, access to education the main factor. Nepotism does most definately exist. I see it where I work all the time.

DP is middle class but came from poor immigrant parents who broke the social immobility myth

Well this is why he believes what he does - his parents came from the poor background that you are saying it's impossible for working class people to escape from. He's had the advantages of private schooling, house deposits etc but they didn't.

I don't agree with him, but I can understand his point of view and why he has it.

This

digitalsynopsis.com/inspiration/privileged-kids-on-a-plate-pencilsword-toby-morris/

He was lucky to have motivated supportive attentative parents

Absolutely Accruel it is very difficult to explain things like divides to someone who has seen his parents move from one bracket to another. And he has two aunts on his mother's side who have done exactly that too. How do you explain social mobility difficulties to someone from that rare background?

It is a subject we always come to blows over

I don't think it's a class thing, more a parental involvement issue. Have you read the recent threads on minority populations at selective schools?

Immigrant parents tend to be extremely committed to their children's education and will make big sacrifices to ensure their children get the best education. That level of parental involvement and expectation can make up for a lot of cash. Wealthier people get the benefit of good education and opportunities almost by default - they'll live in a better area where the schools provide good opportunities, or they'll pay for private. So their kids can get ahead more for less parental effort.