Social class disagreement

[Lavenderfly]

Hi, I'm very upset about a disagreement I had earlier with my DP and I don't feel like I articulated myself properly:

DP is middle class but came from poor immigrant parents who broke the social immobility myth, comes from private school and property / restaurant owning family. Earning above normal tax bracket rate in IT private sector.

I am working class, living in social housing and a single parent to a child from previous relationship. Earning not a great deal more than London living wage in IT public sector.

We both have undergrad degrees, driving licenses, full time professional jobs and enjoy similar hobbies / interests. He manages a team and I do not.

Our disagreement relates to opportunities from members of working class and middle class. These categories are blurred and difficult to define nowadays, but based on your own interpretation - do you feel that working class people have less opportunities to succeed than middle class people?

Apologies for it being so long!

Because grammar schools don't assist social mobility.

The question.is: why does class mean so much to you?

IMO, the old working class_ middle class divide is very antiquated.

DH and I never talk about class, for example.

You want him to acknowledge your experience, but not just as an experience, but as a general truth. He wants you to understand that his experience is different, and does not fit in with your "truth"

Can't you just accept that his viewpoint is different?

Grammar school used to assist social mobility, but today in the dog-eat-dog world of parental pushiness, grammar schools prevent the cash poor middle classes from having to pay for private schooling. Tutoring is much cheaper.

Whilst grammar schools use testing which can be tutored for, they will not aid social mobility. People can effectively pay their way in.

Take a look at Cheltenham. Google Pates grammar school - take a look on google maps at the area and immediate environment.

It is amongst the high rises, the council flats, one of the poorest areas of town.(with BIG high fences).
AND YET - from Ofsted:

...Most students are of White British heritage. The proportion of students who are from minority ethnic backgrounds and the proportion who speak English as an additional language are both below average.
...The proportion of students eligible for the pupil premium is significantly below the national average.
... The proportion of students with a statement of special educational needs is significantly below average and the proportion of those with special educational needs supported at school action and school action plus is below average.
...The proportion of disabled students is below average.

Social mobility huh...

Both my parents and most of the family were/are working class however my ddad came from a farming background so had a grammar education. Myself and my brother got into the local grammars through our own natural academic intelligence (i had no idea I was sitting the 11plus). There was no tutoring. Parents assumed we would all get manual jobs at 16. My two sisters didn't get in. I had a friend whose Dad is an architect who offered me valuable work experience. The grammar pushed university as the only option. I didnt think I could afford to go. But after working in a pub for a bit decided to apply for a student loan and go for it. I worked in bars to supplement.
I became a professional architectural technologist. Got offered a decent work experience due to previous experience. Brother does very well as a software engineer. Both married mc partners.
Sisters not doing so well.
It's not so much what you know but who you know and who you mix with socially.
Grammar worked for me. I would probably have done alrigt at the local grant maintained school but they push apprenticeships and college rather than uni. It was also very disruptive with many students bunking off and doing drugs etc.

Sandgrown - it doesn't assist social mobility. My neighbour's girls weren't particularly bright, but they were put in a private school for a few years and tutored to get into the grammar school.

With the exception of one child, every single other child I know who got into grammar school wasn't because they weren't pushed academically at their local state school and needed something extra, it was because their middle class, professional, university educated and comfortably off parents paid for tutoring for their children to pass their exams.

Where I live the nearest grammar is 1 hour away, so also only those that can afford the time and money to take them there can go. Luckily for us it means that most kids go to the local state academies with different sets according to ability. Because this the kids are thriving and coming out with great results.

I think it would be interesting to ask him whether he believes an immigrant family arriving today would be able to reproduce the business success of his family?

I think the big difference is property prices. In my early working life it was still possible to buy a flat for £20k in a run-down satellite town of London. That run-down satellite town is now a property hotspot!

I'm a raddled old leftie and a huge fan (and beneficiary of) grammars.

It's a bit like Wills and Kate saying that they are "just like all other parents"

Your dp comes from a privileged background but he does not seem to be MC. His ignorance is quite astounding but not uncommon amongst those with money. There was a documentary series on years ago where a wealthy family would swap homes/budgets with a family who were struggling. I remember the son of the rich family who was about 8 saying "anyone can dig themselves out of a hole with hard work! That is what my teacher said". After they met the 'poor' family, who were a Mum and her young daughter the boy was saying how unfair life was etc.

it's not so much what you know but who you know

Sadly very true.

I think that when you grow up seeing how hard people work, seeing how they have pulled themselves up by their boot straps and battling against societies prejudices (if they arent white, they will have had problems at more than one stage in their lives) then you have a different impression of what is possible.

I am not sure getting upset about it helps though. OP is effectively saying my life experiences and my thoughts on society are more valid than yours because you had a different upbringing to me.

Background differences also show in that its OP who is upset because her point of view wasnt accepted. More advantaged people tend to have the skill set to articulate themselves in different ways until the debate is won or reaches stubborn stalemate.

The cartoon linked to above is very true and needs a wider circulation I think. There is also a speech by Tim Minchin at a graduation somewhere on YouTube that highlights the luck that people have when they get DNA that helps them work long hours and are driven (paraphrasing). The point is so much hidden stuff goes into privilege that the privileged tend not to see it.

I wonder, though, how much this man saw his family growing up if they were in the restaurant trade. Those are long hours.

I think it would be interesting to ask him whether he believes an immigrant family arriving today would be able to reproduce the business success of his family?

Well, in some ways it would be easier. My DH's immigrant family had massive issues even getting somewhere to rent when he was little as landlords could be funny about mixed race families. His dad got turned down for jobs for being too brown. I think we forget sometimes how ferociously racist society used to be.

Part of the advantages come from simply knowing what's out there and knowing how things work.

For example; my WC parents put me in for the 11+ because that's what they did when they were 11. Birmingham has a very limited grammar system. There are about 500 places available and thousands of children apply. Most of those children will have had lots of preparation. I had no guidance or tutoring or practice of any kind. I simply turned up at the schoolwhich I made my way to alone on the busand took the test.

I remember sitting there for the first 20 minutes reading the questions and having no idea what to do. I'd never done an exam before. I'd never seen questions like this before. I had no idea what was expected of me.

I had no chance. I had parents that had aspirations for me to do when, but literally no concept of what might be needed to do that.

Another example was a school friend of my sisters. Not a superstar, but reasonably bright, outgoing. A pleasant girl from a nice family where Mum stayed at home and Dad worked in a warehouse.

She was talking about not bothering to sit her GCSE's because 'what was the point?' She'd just get a job in the new Morrisons that was opening and hopefully in a couple of years have baby.

I was about 25 at the time and had seen a bit of the world by then. I asked her why she through that was her only option? Morrison's and a baby? It simply hadn't occurred to her that there were other options. Her school did some careers stuff, but she's always pegged that as something for the really clever kids... not for her.

We talked to her about what she liked and what she might be interested in. Showed her some colleges and career plans and she ended up becoming a physiotherapist.

One of the biggest advantages children from MC families have is parents who've been there, done it and know how it all works.

Well said Sun. Dh applied on the children's behalf for uni res rooms (minimal deposit) before uni acceptance offers. Because he knew it's harder to get a room in res than accepted to uni. Little things that ease the path.

I agree absolutely, Sun. Very well said.

Thanks to all for your comments, it's so useful to get an insight into the experiences and opinions of others.

I will certainly take some of these comments on board