Social class disagreement

[Lavenderfly]

Hi, I'm very upset about a disagreement I had earlier with my DP and I don't feel like I articulated myself properly:

DP is middle class but came from poor immigrant parents who broke the social immobility myth, comes from private school and property / restaurant owning family. Earning above normal tax bracket rate in IT private sector.

I am working class, living in social housing and a single parent to a child from previous relationship. Earning not a great deal more than London living wage in IT public sector.

We both have undergrad degrees, driving licenses, full time professional jobs and enjoy similar hobbies / interests. He manages a team and I do not.

Our disagreement relates to opportunities from members of working class and middle class. These categories are blurred and difficult to define nowadays, but based on your own interpretation - do you feel that working class people have less opportunities to succeed than middle class people?

Apologies for it being so long!

There's an excellent cartoon I have seen that illustrates this. Show him. This takes nothing away from his parents' achievements but merely illustrates how well they did.

m.9gag.com/gag/aPD9x7K/on-a-plate-a-comic-that-gives-a-simple-and-perfect-explanation-of-privilege-by-toby-morris

DH took DS and his friends to a University open day yesterday. All these lads are exceptionally clever. They were incredibly nervous, none of their parents have been to University. DS has grown up with parents who both work in higher education. DH remarked on how DS friends didn't actually ask anything at the stands whereas DS did. It's stuff like that.

Please do show him the link about social mobility. As someone that did move classes by getting a decent education I don't take it for granted in fact I know how hard it is.

He has a closed mind which to me is an unattractive trait. DH is from an extremely privileged background. I had to explain many things because of our cross class relationship to DH but he has an open mind.

People that do make it to a MC from WC level are some of the most scared people I have ever met. It could be that. They are the buyers of stuff from shops for show. I never hide my roots but I know some people, that do because they have made it out. My friend buys Mulberry handbags, I know she hates the fact she grew up on a council estate. I say good on her for being a lawyer.

Sorry, missed that gooseberry had already posted the cartoon!

Has he experienced racism? Perhaps he deals with that by denying any systemic problem. Maybe if he thought too much about this stuff he would have to think about times when he just knows that racism affected him.

Like a PP it may be that his family were quite MC in their country of origin. His assumptions, of resources available even if pooled in the family, of 'getting ahead' professionally, of inheritance, are profoundly MC in this country. My immediate family is like this. I have a household income just under the national average, dh is disabled. But my culture and assumptions are all MC.

He shouldn't be dismissing your opinions even if he doesn't agree. Where are his grandparents' childhood friends? Only some familes have the resources to leave.

How do you explain social mobility difficulties to someone from that rare background?

I don't think his experience is that rare for someone from an immigrant background though.

Hes deluded

An upper middle class upbringing definitely confers advantage but a lower middle one may actually be a bit limiting.
Immigrant families prove that you can have social mobility and that success tends to be related to parental aspirations.

I am from a Scottish island -council house (crappiest estate for "problem" families), from a single parent home with mental health issues, no money, no prospects, no hope.

I now have a family, a job, a house owned outright in a very pleasant part of the country.

Some people move up through privilege, some do it through fear and dread of that hopeless pit of despair.

I think the problem is that he considers social mobility to be the way he experienced his life.

Poor immigrants are generally considered working class.
His working class parents worked hard and sacrificed things to give him his middle class education.
He has done well out of his parents hard work and sacrifices and as a result he considers that he has moved up to middle class.
That's the perfect example of social mobility to him as he understands it. It wasn't difficult to do in his eyes.

You telling him its not correct is basically you telling him his life has been pointless and one big lie and no one likes to be told that even if they have misunderstood and are in the wrong.

Good luck trying to explain it to him but I do feel he wont be swayed to think anything different. You are asking him to forget everything his parents did and said to enable him to climb the social ladder on the basis that your life was different.

In my family we have a tradition of falling down the social ladder. 3 generations ago my family were wealthy landed gentry. Then various marriages happened beneath their social status and were removed from the will/inheritance and now my generation of my line have all been working class with poor education living in poor deprived areas. I always feel sad when I look at the photos of the big parties and posh frocks my ancestors experienced. I even have to pay to visit my own ancestral home

Reinstate I understand, and yes I think that's where our different experiences are.

I don't deny that his upbringing is a possible outcome. I know of other immigrant families who also worked very hard but have nothing to show for it.

I don't want to dictate to him how social mobility works. I want him to accept that barriers exist for those from less disadvantaged backgrounds - if that makes sense? It's super complicated due to our different experiences.

I think the immigrant experience is very different to the British W/C experience in lots of ways. My DH comes from a similar background - his DF came to this country absolutely penniless, at a point where his family's ethnic group were being persecuted in their home country. Some of his relatives arrived later as refugees. It was very hard for them.

His father worked incredibly hard and both DH and SiL went to boarding school, then university, now are both very MC professionals, with all the trappings. For years he was also quite biased on the subject of social mobility. I think it's hard - the way I saw it was that for his father to achieve that level of social mobility, in the face of poverty, racism and massive personal trauma he had to really believe he could, and prioritise that kind of mobility over almost everything - I know FiL worked Christmas Day, birthdays, put a lot of pressure on his DCs to live up to his expectations - and that kind of expectation tends to pass down the generations. That you can succeed and if you don't, it's because you haven't tried.

Using that swimmer analogy, because his parents were exceptionally strong swimmers/were lucky in being at the edge of the current/happened to come upon a piece of floating log that helped their hard work, they think there is no difference in swimming with undercurrent and swimming without it.

My dad also worked his way up. He tells us proudly how when he did his military service he would stay up late after manoeuvres and study A-levels by correspondence, and he really doesn't quite get that not everybody will have had the physical strength to do that, that some of the lads will have been absolutely dead beat by the end of a day's manoeuvres.

I get the impression the immigrant experience is different in many ways (as mentioned) and it does bring up the question how much the class divide is something a person imposes on themselves.

I think it depends on the type of middle class. C2 middle class and working class seem exactly the same to me (except the middle class tend to have a little bit more money which they waste on joules clothing and range rovers). What I am getting at is that the difference in opportunity is cultural, not economic.

Like your DP my family were poor migrants and very much economically working class. My parents worked in factories or unskilled office jobs. They had poor job security, frequently being made redundant (one or the other lost their job every three years). Our house was mortgaged for twice the sum that they bought it for because it was falling apart and they had to go into debt to keep it standing/water tight. However, they were culturally middle class. My mother had a PhD and my father had been a medical professional from a family full of medical professionals (doctors/dentists/academics in the medical field) with the occasional linguist or botanist thrown in the mix.

My parents encouraged me to read widely, they took me to the ballet, they expected me to go to university and become a doctor/sonething on that level. They also made great sacrifices to send me to private school. When I was old enough I did mybit and sought out, applied for and, won scholarships on my own as did many of my colleagues. Many girls at my school came from poor migrant families and they were usually the ones who worked the hardest and were most successful academically.

Your DP is right in saying that the same opportunities are out there (especially over here with grammar schools). Not to the same extent (money well spent does play a big role) but they are still there. Being poor does not mean that you cannot go to Eton. Being poor does not mean that you cannot experience culture-many cultural experiences such as classical music concerts, entry to architectural marvels, meseums and, art galleries are free to the public in Britain for example. However, whether these opportunities are seized can very much depend onyourparebts' class. I know a few people who were prevented from going to private schools on scholarships by working class parents who were prejudiced. It must be difficult for him to grasp, given what his parents managed to do for him. He saw them struggle and work extremely hard so that he had the same advantages of middle class children. He may be blinded to the fact that belonging to a lower class does inhibit your access to proper education, exposure to culture etc. by his own experiences.

If it's a subject that you always argue about then can you avoid discussing/rowing about it if your relationship is otherwise good? It sounds to me that your DP doesn't want his mind changed?

If it doesn't offer advantages, why on earth did his parents send him to private school?

Disclaimer: I'm an American married to a Brit, so I could be off, none the less...

@Lavenderfly I think it is easy in a conversation about generalities to take things very personally. For example, if he said that working class people can rise up if they work hard, that could really sound like, "YOU could rise up if YOU worked hard, and being higher is better, so YOU SHOULD." If that is how the conversation felt, even if it isn't exactly what was said, of course it was upsetting. It would feel very blaming and shaming.

Second, he is completely discounting what his parents did. It's possible that in their birth culture, telling stories of how hard one worked and all that one overcame is not considered appropriate. They sound like pretty amazing people -- moved to a new country, built a business, provided their child was an excellent education, and so on. I suspect they worked very hard, went through difficult times, and went without things for themselves at time to give him opportunities. It could be that their stoicism is part of what makes him think it isn't a big deal.

He, on the other hand, sounds like he has simply played the cards he was dealt. You could present it to him that by downplaying the difficulty and sacrifices of changing class, he is not showing honor to his parents and all that they accomplished with their lives, and all that they did for him.

I think (and this is the part I could get really wrong since I'm American) that different working class people have different sets of advantages and disadvantages: family support, intelligence, access to quality education, grit and perseverance , ability to think outside the box, lucky breaks, one bad decision that ripples through years of their life, believe that change is possible and good, and so on. Everybody gets a different deal. It's impossible to make true sweeping statements because subtle things can make such a big difference.

My neighbours are both doctors. They took their girls out of the local primary school and paid for them to go to a private school for a few years and then tutored them to get into the grammar school.

Someone I know rented a house for 6 months and tutored their son so he could get into grammar school.

My parents were extremely poor growing up but they build a business and became wealthy. I had a privileged upbringing but always had to work for what I got. We werent spoiled. So my siblings and I are lucky that we have been brought up to work hard, have a stable base in our family but also know that if anything were to happen our parents will be there in every way.

My children's state schools are amazing so I'm lucky in that way. But both dh and I are university educated and professional, so the way we speak , what we expose our children to and what they're encouraged to do is certainly an advantage. The fact that their grammar and the way they express themselves is 'educated' simply because they grew up in our house, already places them at an advantage over some of their local (just as bright) friends.

So yeah. I too used to think like your dp. I now know that we absolutely don't all have the same chances.

You are right but by saying it, you are saying to him that he has only been as successful as he is because of his privileges. To him that feels like a dismissal of the hard work and ability that went into his success.

If you want your relationship to last, you need to stop having these discussions. It's just too emotive. You haven't lived his experience as an ethnic minority person; he hasn't lived your experience as a working class person.

When I was young, I put a lot of emotional and intellectual effort into trying to persuade people to think exactly the way that I do. Unsuccessfully.

People aren't going to change their views because of your brilliant discussion skills and amazingly perceptive comments and just 'being right'.

Save your breath.

I have a team at work, not uni educated, they have every opportunity to build a career in my company which is a blue chip.

Realistically they could get from their £30k salaries up to maybe £50k in 5 years if they really worked hard

Their attitudes towards development and progression range from those who can't do enough to get ahead, to those who are close to being sacked for not working hard enough. Whilst its a small sample size, i have always held the view tgat those who want to get ahead badly enough, will.

Yes some are privileged, that's life, the winners will not get bogged down moaning about unfairness and make their own luck

It is difficult sometimes to see beyond your own experience especially if you feel a sense of 'well I did it, why can't they?'

Do you think it's more a generational thing rather than an immigrant thing? I mean was there more social mobility as a whole 30-50yrs ago?

I grew up in dire poverty. I hated it and my whole life plan was based on ensuring I wouldn't bring up my children in the same circumstances.

I knew I needed to get to university but I also knew I'd need to work for a few years beforehand to pay for it. I knew having a baby would end all hoped of achieving the goal so I was obsessive over birth control. I knew I needed to choose a husband whose job would help keep me and any future children out of poverty.

Anyway, it took me a few years to mature enough to realise that a lot of it was luck. Also that in the early years especially it was all very fragile financially. I hadn't factored in illness or disability or addiction or redundancy or any of the things that can derail the best laid plans. I also hadn't occurred to me that despite being unable to ever contribute to it financially, the fact that my parents encouraged and supported my education was in itself a privilege.

I'm not sure even that is enough of a privilege to make a difference to the generation that came next.

30 years ago there were more industries that offered stable work. so that indeed may be a factor. and as LL mentioned if you've overcome an obstacle you might think anyone else can as well.
the next generation seem to be happier and have a better work life balance. but with so many people (especially where i'm from) having university educations, education will not be the key to improving from your parents situation. but maybe what will be improved will be more inner peace?

He feels that dysfunction is equally a problem in middle class and isn't a disadvantage for WC alone, that's what did it and I got cross.

On that point (and that point only) I agree with him. In fact sometimes MC dysfunction expresses itself through money given and withheld.

Do you think maybe there's something about his childhood or family that you don't know?

It's not unusual for expensively educated people with social capital and substantial cash backing to be blind to their advantages. Maybe in this case, he's also being defensive because of a disadvantage he feels keenly but you aren't aware of?

An example of privilege -- I have a daughter at uni who is in a very tough, very male dominated program. Last spring it slipped her mind that she needed to arrange an internship for the summer and that there were a list of requirements for it until other students started talking about theirs. She called her daddy, he made a few calls, and less than 48 hours later a formal offer for the perfect internship popped up in her email. I seriously doubt that she has told a soul that she got the perfect internship through the difficult task of calling daddy.

Mean while, my DH got a call from a board member who wanted an summer internship for some one he was connected with (a neighbor? nephew? something like that). DH of course created the perfect internship for that young man. It's just how it works.

Both of these young people are very smart, very hardworking, and no body is handing them life on a silver platter. None the less, they get little advantages all the time that aren't clearly obvious to their peers.

As far as dis-function, it is alive and well in the middle class and upper middle class. It just looks a little different.

Can I just ask why people hate grammar schools if they believe in social mobility?