Can a relationship survive alcoholism

[MiniTheMinx]

I have been with DP for two years. Living together for one. He drinks, a lot, I think. 2lr of cider normally, at weekends it can be much more.

He's a good man, kind, funny and sensitive. He treats me well and is very affectionate. However the physical side of the relationship has always been a problem.

When he drinks he loses all of inhibitions and can be very sexual, but he can't always maintain an erection and rarely orgasms. When he is sober he is tired, more withdrawn and rarely interested.

He has admitted that before he met me he drank more. He was also no angel. He is very extroverted and attractive. But he's also sensitive and when not drinking seems to suffer quite low self esteem.

My problem is this, is he an alcoholic? I am signed up for years of feeling insecure because I think he is impulsive when drinking and his insecurity seems to have led him to risky sexual behaviour? Plus, it's only now he is reducing the amount he drinks that I realise his funny social side that I fell in love with is largely dependent on being drunk.

Can a relationship survive one partner trying to go sober? I have been tearful for weeks because he seems so tired, withdrawn and intimacy is dwindling. Is this normal?

Alcoholics put drink first before everything else.

As a mother, you should be putting your children first before this man. If you choose to stay, you are basically agreeing with your alcoholic partner that drink comes first and not the well being of your children.

You are teaching your children a very bad lesson.

Mini,

re your comment:-
"I know he is self medicating away pain from his childhood. He has told me stuff. He is very emotionally intelligent....more so than me. He's been ringing this morning because he's worried about me. I believe he is. But I fear if he stops drinking he won't be the person I met, if he carries on he won't be either....he will end up I'll, impotent, bitter and even more insecure."

Mini, you sound like his therapist rather than his girlfriend and are simply now being further dragged down by him. Your codependency issues are also very much a part of all this as well; you're saying that you are very much responsible for him. Well actually you are not, you are not responsible for him. You threw in your lot with this individual way too soon at huge cost to you and your children and the price for your poor decision is happening right in front of you. The man you thought he was is a fiction but done long enough to get you completely over invested in.

"My children are very grounded and pragmatic. He has never done anything to upset them. He is very good to them. We don't have any financial problems, which helps keep life normal for them. But I'd hate it if in 20 years my son's tell me they feel I wasted my own life, I might do that, but I won't let them suffer."

Your children know far more than you care to realise and they see also how upset you get about your partner's drinking. You cannot protect them from this man's alcoholism.

You may not have any financial problems at the moment but that may well be down to you ultimately. Someone pays for the drink and that all adds up over time; he is taking money from you all to pay for that.

I would read up on the "sunken costs fallacy" as this is also causing you to make poor relationship decisions. Your last sentence will in all truthfulness come back and haunt you; they could call you daft for staying and wonder of you why you put him before them. You may have wondered the same about your own mother in the event she did not leave your dad. Your own relationship with them as adults could be profoundly affected as a result. One or more of them may have alcoholics as partners or may become alcoholics.

Hi Mini
Both my parents were alcoholics. Mum has died because of it. Dad has lost his life as he know it, his beloved wife, friends, girlfriend of recent years etc all because of the booze.
He came to live with myself and kids as he had nowhere. If I'd have known the extent of this nightmare life he leads I wouldn't have moved him in.
He drank drove with the kids in the car, social services became involved. He shat himself regularly, pissed on the floor, vomited pretty much every day. Our lives were destroyed.
To save us I chucked him out and he now lives in a little flat near us. He is drunk all the time but myself and the kids are happy again.
I will not tolerate my children going through what I did.
IT WAS NOT A PLEASANT LIFE growing up. It's the massive elephant in the room.
I hope you have the strength to do what's best for you all. Sending love.

Lostball- I hope you have some support. I guess it is a bit easier for me, the children are mine, and his children are his children. The problem no is that they all get along so well. In that respect everything has been great.

Ok, the children. His little boy once said to mine "My daddy is an alcoholic" This was apparently said to him by his mother. I could have cried. He's a very sweet boy. He wants to live with us now, his mother spends all her time in the pub. Even DP thinks that he feels safe with us because its stable and calm. And it is always calm here. But its me that's offering stability probably. I can't see how it is possible to throw everything up in the air.

Atilla- Yes my father was an alcoholic, I say was because my mother made him kick it. My mother died six years ago. He used to drink 16 pints and half a bottle of scotch daily. DP doesn't drink like that, but he has been drinking a lot for many years now. My father stewed his brain over a short period, before I was born.

I don't want to be his therapist. I sound like I'm making excuses and I might be trying to minimise it too. Maybe I am drawn to him. My ex and father of the children had addiction problems when I met him. he sorted himself out, but he was never the same person after. He became withdrawn, cynical, quiet, cut himself off from friends and isolated us. Maybe that is why I am drawn to DP but also why I fear that if he stopped drinking, he won't then be the person I met. He really does seem to need the alcohol to function socially.

greystarling- I'm sorry you have been through this too. Do your children have any relationship with him? I think you are right, I do think that any amount of hardship,any life event might tip the balance. He was sent home from work. he can be quite difficult. They are very patient and seem to be aware of is issues. But he has principles and values, and its only then that he can be difficult. Someone in the office made derogatory comments about women, DP basically said "remove this person or I will punch his lights out"

Weloveoptimus- That sounds horrendous. Has he ever sought help? Why was he shitting himself? Is this liver failure or something else? I'm glad you and your children are ok now.

He is minimising the whole thing. last time he rang this morning, he said "I love you more than anything, I would never choose drink over you, and I can stop drinking in the week" He hasn't once said he will stop, he won't acknowledge that he needs to stop, despite admitting he drinks way too much. I have called him drunk, neither of us have ever said the words "alcoholic"

I agree with others, he knows he can't stop straight out without getting withdrawal symptoms, so he thinks cutting down will have two effects, he doesn't have symptoms and he can carry on drinking.

Yesterday he came home from the pub sober and said "I love you, we will have an early night......and....." he did, he drank 2ltrs of cider and fell asleep snoring at 9pm. I'm not at work today because I have hardly slept. So if I go quiet, I'm probably sleeping!

I was with an alcoholic and I second what was said above about "chaos". It was and still is sometimes when he pops back up. I knew he had a problem after about a year, I was pregnant by then. It was Christmas and he had two weeks off. He basically got up in the morning and at lunchtime opened his first can of lager. That was it for the day then. Before then I had been drinking too, not as much but enough to cover his tracks. With pregnancy I stopped and that's when it all really kicked off. I remember feeling cold and frightened watching him drink as it dawned on me how bad his habit was. His family enabled it - they're nearly all heavy drinkers and I was basically just called a nag and and he would tell them I was exaggerating. He would drink every night - between 5 and 10 cans and would order me out of the living room so he didn't have to "look at my miserable face". Sometimes I would wake up in the morning and he'd be gone or he'd still be drinking or passed out on the sofa in his own urine. It was chaos. He spent all our money, pawned and sold our family possessions, disappeared for days at a time on benders. I was expected to facilitate it and if I didn't I was a cunt a bitch, cold hearted and so on. It was literally hell on earth. I woke every morning and could hardly bear to get out of bed. I knew that it would damage my children irreparably to be seeing all this and that I had to get him out but it took five years before I could manage it. No one would help me because they just thought I was lying and exaggerating. In the end he attacked me in front of my children.

Your story may not be as bad as this but it is because you're not really challenging him. Youre not giving any real ultimatums. Even the most gentle and sensitive drinkers can turn into evil monsters if they think you're threatening, interfering or preventing them from drinking. You're not ready to leave I can see that but I promise you it will get worse and it will happen by increments until suddenly you and your children are in hell and you don't know how you got there.

Bluntly; you can't save his kids.

It's very sad but with two alcoholics for parents they will be messed up stepmum or no stepmum, social care should be aware of them. You are not doing anyone favours by protecting him from the consequences.

You need to choose. Is it just his kids that are going to be messed up or do you want it to be yours as well?

It is screamingly obvious that they will be, you've already discussed his drinking with them? What did you say? Did you 'reassure' them it's ok? I hope not because that's significant steps towards teaching them life as/with an alcoholic is ok.

TBh, drinking cider is the end game for most alcoholics. I bet it's the really rough stuff as well- White Lightening or Iceland's own. When you are drinking for the pure alcohol content and low price.

Greystarling, oh god, yes this happens here. When DP has been drinking he becomes super anxious about the children, about their health, their diet, what they are not eating at dinner, how much air and exercise they have had, what happens at school. He becomes fixated on telling them what they should be doing. My DCs are older, teenagers. They don't respond to it now. He tells them how much he loves them and cares and wants what is best for them, but I can see from the expression on DS1s face that he thinks DP is being a twit. I believe he does care. The children listen to him when he hasn't been drinking. But they have little patience for his commenting when he has. A friend however said to me that she believes it is controlling.

I'm glad you are all getting help and making a new life.

He can be quite anxious about me as well. in lots of ways. I guess I have just always thought of it as being protective.

JessicaEccles, its 5.5% not sure if that's strong. He buys it in Waitrose. Classy huh....not really. I think its naff too. And yes I think you are right, it tastes horrid. I tried some, its disgusting, so it can only be because its alcoholic and cheap. He admitted recently that he drank at least 2ltrs of this every day, plus pints on the way home because he was lonely before he met me.

I have asked the children how they feel and what they think. I haven't told them what I feel. They have said they like him, he is good to them, but both have said he is annoying when he has been drinking. When drinking he is very extroverted, very emotional and very dominating.

You want him to stop drinking, but he isn't going to. Certainly not while you are keeping him involved in real life despite his alcoholism.

The man you are in a relationship with doesn't exist. You are really in a relationship with a bottle of cider.

Your teens have got out of one environment with an addict and then you've put them into another one. What exactly was the point in leaving their dad if you just swap one addict for another?

And your last post makes it even worse because it is clear that he is drinking around the children.

He was drinking when you didn't live with him, when his children were with him? Sounds like his ex does too? Your heart should be breaking because of what he has done to them.

His small son isn't afraid to call him an alcoholic but you, a grown adult, are.

mini,

I give you full credit for coming back to this thread because many would have not wanted to hear it. There has been a lot said to you and the replies were likely hard to take in.

And what Offred wrote earlier re his children; with two parents as alcoholics Social Services need to be made aware of these young people. The best thing you could do for your own children would be to get you and your children well away from him now. Do you want your children to be as profoundly affected by his alcoholism as his children already are.

Ultimately you need to work on your own codependency issues through therapy. Both your parents showed you a skewed example of a relationship and you've basically repeated it. Your mother taught you how to be codependent in relationships and now you're imparting those lessons to your own children.

I also think you have misread his anxious behaviour re being "protective" about you; its actually controlling behaviour. His main focus to his life is drinking and you are all still very much in the thick of it.

Why did you talk to these young people about his drinking?. I also hope you did not minimise his drinking to them either.

The man you are in a relationship with doesn't exist. You are really in a relationship with a bottle of cider That is my fear, I haven't known him to be completely sober for any real length of time. All I have known is this larger than life, expressive, emotional, funny, extroverted and slightly demanding and full on man. On the days he doesn't drink he is very tired, very quiet and very serious. Its hard to explain. He isn't moody, and he has never once raised his voice at me.

My ex dealt with his issues before we had children.

I worry about his little boy. The mother is totally chaotic. Nice lady, but a bit loopy. She loves him, but she has no clue how to parent. her other kids are off the rails. DPs other child is fine, different mother, adult now, and very much ok.

I spoke to my children because I want to know how they feel. I didn't ask them lots of questions, or grill them.

I am taking all this in. I am very worried. I am worried about his health. I can't bare the thought that he is making himself ill. But I know I probably can't stop it. Not sure I can stand back either and do nothing

This is classic codependency.

Your ex will always be an addict, he's stopped indulging, that's good. The point remains you have swapped one addict for another. This one has an active addiction. It's not a move in a positive direction.

Your father was an addict too. You say he stopped drinking before you were born but here you are in a number of relationships with addicts as an adult - being codependent is what you know and this is the effect his addiction had on you, on what you learned about adulthood, being a woman and relationships, even though he didn't drink during your childhood.

What you were raised to believe was that your mother stopped your father drinking. It is in your subconscious now to seek out codependent relationships with addicts. The two routes adult children of addicts take - addiction or codependency. There is a good chance your kids will follow this road too.

He's an alcoholic. Look at yourself every morning and say this to yourself out loud and soon his drunken behaviour will start making you feel sick to your stomach.

You can't do anything about him being an alcoholic, his children have no choice and you can't rescue them either, but you can choose whether your children live in this environment going forward.

And yes, you don't know this man at all, because you have never seen him sober. Addictions don't just go away, the vast majority of the time addicts can't just cope with it on their own, partners only make them worse by being codependent.

Mini,

re your comment:-
"I am taking all this in. I am very worried. I am worried about his health. I can't bare the thought that he is making himself ill. But I know I probably can't stop it. Not sure I can stand back either and do nothing"

You should be more worried frankly about your children and his who are also being exposed to an alcoholic amongst them. You and he are really a car crash of a relationship and should not be together at all. You really are that bad for each other.

Re your last sentence in the your comment as well what realistically can you do except leave this man?. You did not cause it, you cannot control it and you cannot cure his alcoholism for him. Your mother also tried with her H and failed. You also learnt codependent behaviours from seeing your parents dysfunctional relationship in action as well, you were taught how to be codependent.

Re your comment:-
"But I know I probably can't stop it".

There is no "probably" about it. Take that word out and go from them.

All the male adults in your life have been addicts and you have always tried to work with, rescue and or save them. It has not worked and will not work. He will simply continue to drag you all down with him.
You need to break your own codependency patterns of behaviours here because it really is working against you.

Even in the unlikely event that he does stop drinking op things do not magically get better because being an alcoholic isn't the real problem. It's a smoke screen.

The real problem is not being able to deal with life.

The best way forward is for you [and the teenage dc - who will have been damaged already by alcohol being a big part of their lives] to attend an Al-anon meeting. You will find great support to help you decide what it is that you want to do and to understand more about what's really happening.

You are brave to post and listen and return and respond - please call and talk to someone from Al-anon in RL - it will be a life changer for you.

No it can't survive. Alcoholics tend to lose their homes and all their relationships eventually fail.
You are not Florence Nightingale. It's either tough love or leave or a lifetime of pain.
I've seen this over and over again.

OP, look up Wernicke's encephalopathy, and it's dreadful progession, Korsakoff Syndrome.

You get Wernicke's first. But once it progresses to Korsakoffs then the person loses the ability to function independently and loses the ability to form new memories. I have had many patients with it. It can come on very sudden as often Wernicke's goes unnoticed for years. Then suddenly Dad seems to develop Alzheimer's in the space of a week. It's not, it's Korsakoffs.

I have had patients in nursing homes with Korsakoffs in their fifties. They will live there for the rest of their lives.

So if he is starting to get forgetful, pay very close attention.

I have also had experience of working with people with Korsakoffs. Always men, early onset dementia. I have suggested to DP that I take him to meet someone, in their late 50s with this condition. DP is nearly 50. It scares me.

I wouldn't consider taking my children to any meetings or therapy type stuff. My eldest son is very like me. What is worse I used to counsel people with drug and alcohol misuse.

For those saying I'm codependent, I have looked it up. I don't know. I'm not Florence nightingale, and I rail at being depended upon. I hate feeling caged in or really obligated. My biggest fear is having someone who I quite literally have to look after. I did my 20 year stint in social work, I don't want it in my personal life.

We talked. No drinking last night . I'm thinking though that if I really set out to police his drinking I will become part of it. I don't want that. Neither do I want to get into a situation of forcing him down the road of deceit. So I shall remain calm and keep up my gentle campaign. He has managed to go several weeks at a time without drinking in the week. He then gets stressed at work. Which I believe is more of an excuse. So I plan to try and encourage distraction and other activities.

I don't want to walk away. My big fears remain, sober DP is not the man I met, perhaps he is, I'm not likely to know until or if he is able to deal with this. Or worse maybe, he does stew his brain.

What I won't tolerate ever is chaos around my children. I have told him that if ever he loses control of life, mind, or finances that I'm out. He knows how much I love him and he understands that I want more from life than just looking after others. Should he deal with it for me? No not to please me. But I made it very clear that if he loved me like he says he does he wouldn't continue to drink. He is trying and has been cutting back but he still won't acknowledge he is alcoholic.

I can see that anything short of running away is taking some responsibility. But I love him

Oh Mini, I completely understand the way you feel, it's the same for me. You know what everyone is saying is true, especially given your counselling background, but it's not at all easy to walk away. You love him so naturally you want to help and support him, even though you know nothing will change unless he wants it to, and he's unable to make that choice because he's an addict. I defy anyone to think they could walk away from a seriously unwell loved one.
The best thing you can do, aside from leaving him of course, is look after yourself and your children. I cope far better if I'm feeling mentally and physically well, I'm able to give DS the care and attention he needs, keep going to work and minimise the impact DH's drinking has on our lives. Do not neglect your own health and wellbeing because of his addiction.

But I also realise that in trying to stay on top I minimise the effect his addiction has on us.
I offer that advice as a way to cope while you make longer term plans and try to summon the courage to leave him to it. I'm not quite there yet, but I'm close. I've started planning and trying to change the way I think about it all. The guilt I feel at the thought of leaving DH when he's so unwell and breaking up our family is huge, but I'm trying to come to terms with it so I can make the break for my son's sake.

lostball

re your comment:-
"I defy anyone to think they could walk away from a seriously unwell loved one".

Nothing OP has tried has worked so what other option is there realistically. Also its not just her involved, there are children here who are learning from this dysfunctional relationship as well. What do you think your own child has learnt about relationships here to date; you cannot and have not managed to protect him or your own self fully from your Hs alcoholism.

This is not solely a physical illness; this man is physically and mentally dependent on alcohol and the roots of alcoholism run very deep. It can also be learnt and many people who grew up seeing parents drink heavily can go onto choose alcoholics as partners themselves.

His primary relationship is with alcohol and its not with you or your children. His thoughts mainly centre on where the next drink is going to come from.

Your love for him is mired in codependency and you are confusing love with this. He is not showing you love; his relationship is primarily with the bottle. He likes having you around simply so you can prop him up and look after him.

"but I love him"
The reasons given by abused women as to why they continue to live in fear and shame are many and varied. One of the many excuses women use are those four words as well to justify their own existence in an abusive relationship along with others like shame, fear of him, fear of the unknown and hope that he will change.

Love does not conquer all and to hold that up as otherwise is itself damaging. You are no different from the other women who tried to help and or support him either; you ended up enabling him and being otherwise responsible for him. Also you forget as well that he does not actually want your help and support and what makes you think you can help someone like this anyway?. Its hard enough to enact a change for your own self, demanding that someone else changes is an impossibility.