Feel I'm living up to an 'ideal'

[LovelyBath77]

Does anyone know what I mean when you feel in a marriage or relationship, nothing you seem to do is ever good enough? If the dinner is not made for 6pm, if you have taken the children out and the house is not as tidy as it could be, or if you have stayed home and tidied then it is commented on that the children have not been out I don't actually think it is possible to be perfect, or do all these things at once. But it seems to be interpreted as me 'not caring'. or taken personally, feel like I am judges on these, small things. I have to say none of this has ever been said, it's just how I feel. Also, when I ask what he likes to eat, he won't tell me, seems to expect me to 'know'. It's weird. I don't know how to explain really. Just wondered of anyone knew how I feel.

We learn about relationships first and foremost from our parents; if your mother was (and likely still is) critical when growing up that was your template for choosing a partner in adult life. That template is warped and your brother as well as you have both been harmed by it; you both went onto choose critical people to have a relationship with. I am not surprised at all that you subconsciously chose a critical partner yourself because that is what you learnt from childhood.

Yes, also my mum was far from there as a mother and I have tried to be the opposite- a perfect mum and taken on all the household stuff as part of that perhaps..to be honest that is more me than DH has led to that.

Anyway, that book I mentioned is good about getting what you want to say without them feeling blamed and does seem to help them listen more. For example, it says things like using "I statements' so things like "I feel very criticised / judged when you complain about the cream being off" can lead to them thinking about that and a discussion, whereas if you say "You criticise me" they can simply reposed like "Well you nag me" and it can just turn into an argument. It is not easy at times when emotional but in trying this sometimes it does feel helpful. As an alternative to not saying anything, or as AF mentioned, doing a passive aggressive eye raise. Not easy changing habits is it.

There is no ideal here or high standards - it's simply a method of controlling and belittling you. It keeps you in your place - subservient and dependent - and maintains his position as top dog. It's very, very common.

The example in your OP -

If the dinner is not made for 6pm, if you have taken the children out and the house is not as tidy as it could be, or if you have stayed home and tidied then it is commented on that the children have not been out

has nothing to do with perfectionism. He simply moved the goalposts in order to maintain the upper hand - it's a control mechanism.

You can try with the: "I feel very criticised / judged when you complain about the cream being off" blarney - but he won't care and won't change his behaviour. If he cared he wouldn't do it.

I'm not going to criticise you for putting up with it - I couldn't do it personally - but it's your life.

HI lovely

Im working through a similar dynamic at the moment. Reflecting on my childhood and my mothers lack of affection attention etc.

Im pretty sure i chose my husband based on the patterns of me desperately trying to be liked, accepted, trusted

Needless to say, both relationships are circling around the plughole - and I'm desperately wondering if i am to blame.

I'm training myself to think about how my friendships work, how we talk openly, are accepted, and encouraged in our lives; also how we are gently given a kick up the arse when needed. I think i have expected that in my marriage and have been wrong to do so.

I'm making no sense. At all. Unfortunately its like my head is full of spaghetti and cotton wool.

Anyone any advice on setting and maintaining reasonable boundaries??

My partner can be like this. I just laugh at him. I don't know, I don't take it personally. I frustrate him too as I do things stupidly, he always has better logical solutions. We are both equalling annoying

Mine also does the same to himself and his family do as well, both to themselves and others. It must be so tiring.

Forwards yes there are some good ideas about boundaries in a site called Out of the FOG (Fear obligation and guilt) in the Toolbox area. I'll do a link for you. I am NC with mum which has helped quite a bit. This is because I think she may have a personality disorder- not sure, but these tips can help in general. HTH a little.

outofthefog.website/what-to-do-2/2015/12/3/boundaries

With regard to my OP.

The example in your OP -

"If the dinner is not made for 6pm, if you have taken the children out and the house is not as tidy as it could be, or if you have stayed home and tidied then it is commented on that the children have not been out"

can you see that it is me linking these things together? So if there is a comment that the children have been in, or if dinner is not at our usual time (6pm- which I like us to keep regular) I'm taking that as a slight. Whereas it might not be. It might just be a comment about it.

Anyway. Thanks for helpful replies.

My tiresome DH is exactly the same. His usual insult for me is that I am 'slapdash'.

I used to get upset by this. I used to be irritated.

Then I realized I actually do 90% of the work in the home and hold a job down with two kids.

I got a cleaner in to take up his slack that I don't want to pick up any longer. I also don't react to anything he says. When you lose respect for them, I find it is a lot easier to not give a shit.

Just try and detach from it. Good luck!

Have you tried asking him outright OP?

Lovely, what was your husbands childhood like?

I recently read Controlling by Patricia Evans, its not a book that I found easy to read however her theory is that some men (who are disconnected from themselves) becoming controlling as they put their partners in the role of "ideal" woman.This ideal woman is the perfect mate who knows what they are thinking,does everything that he needs, doesn't answer back or question him.

I didn't find the concept easy to relate to however but she attempts to explain it by saying the male partners often "make up a pretend partner" rather than see the real woman.

Your post resonated as you mentioned not being seen as "real" and needing to know what he was thinking..both points she makes strongly.

The author doesn't really offer any solutions other than challenge what he is thinking by saying "I am a separate person from you" .I did get lost half way through the book so can't say I recommend it wholeheartedly but the first parts might resonate with you.

Iike you I read nvc a few years ago and started to put in place boundaries.I wish I could tell you it fixed the issue but all it did was make clear how controlling my ex was and his anger became greater so I had to separate.

Ex was like this. Loaded comment that made everything that went wrong my fault. Also treating myself was a no no as in "oh this shoes are a bit tight ds, can't get you new ones though because Mummy wants to go out for lunch today" - it was my birthday and the shoes had been fitted by Clarks only a fortnight previously. Loud comments about "this place is a shit hole today!" and so on for years. Was soul destroying.

I also always think of an acquaintance whose wife eventually left him after years of snidey comments. He said "I used to go on at her about there being two bags of carrots in the fridge, asking her why she hadn't used the first lot, on and on. Why did I do that? It was fucking carrots". So he got it in the end, too late though.

Hermonie, his dad is very controlling and his mum describes him as a misogynist. He says he swore when young he'd never be like him. However they can pick up traits i think as it is all they have ever known.

Cleaner idea sounds good- yes he says he'd love a cleaner. So would I! :-)

Oh no, I think I do comments like that to him. Oh we have to go out because dad is working and need to leave him in peace / keep it tidy etc. Doing comments through the children not good is it.

It could be that you've linked the comments -

if you have taken the children out and the house is not as tidy as it could be, or if you have stayed home and tidied then it is commented on that the children have not been out

On the other hand it could be exactly how you say it is: that there is subtle, implicit disapproval whatever you do.

My money is on the latter.

OP, I am sorry you are feeling like this, and to my mind it is not normal, and must be a stressful way to live for you.

I can see that after 18 years you accept this as "your normal", but to me it sounds like it is your job to please him. But it is not his job to please you. It is as if he has all the power, and you end up blaming yourself for his moods.

I'd rather live alone, than live like that. Do you ever fantasise about running away?

Yes, sometimes, but I'm not living in a fantasy world.

I need to know how best to deal with it. I think i might go with ignoring it and laughing, some of the suggestions on here. And not let it get to me, as think i can be a bit sensitive due to being brought up with criticism as well.

It also helps to look at where it is coming from. I know he feels guilty as working a lot over the hols and hence the wanting kids to be taken out etc. Which is fine, happy to do that but we'll go out have fun and eat out, for example. I'll do it my own way!

Also, in some ways i do expect him to please me. He isn't by working so much at the mo, for example and I probably have expectations of him in some ways as well.

It is easy and often seems to happen on MN that the man is the bad one and to blame for everything, but things are not usually that black and white! (well may be in some cases but not here)

You're dealing with it the best you can OP. There is no right way to deal with a man who behaves like this. Whatever you do or say, however you modify your behaviour and responses, you will always be criticised and always be implied to be in the wrong.

You either put up and shut up or get out.

By all means roll your eyes more, ignore him more, and say "when you say x I feel y" but it will not make the blindest bit of difference.

lovely - thank you for the link.

i swear ill never feel peace any more. im convinced its just me. me all over. im the distasteful person. Im the one that annoys everyone.

thankfully my counselling resumes next week. previous cllr wanted to use psychodynamic counselling. stupidly i told my mother.

Naturally, she says its a bad idea. Dad, well he thinks looking back is a complete waste of time.

ive no idea.

If you're feeling a silent barrage of criticism it's likely that there really is one ... but also very possible that your partner does it so automatically he's not really aware he's doing it.

On the other hand, if you grew up in that kind of environment it's also easy to assume you're still in it even if you aren't. My DP's FOO are quite passive-aggressive and he has a habit of scanning my utterances for the subtext (e.g if I say something like "oh crap we're out of milk, I'll go and get some more once I've finished doing X" what DP will hear is more like "you useless sod, you've allowed us to run out of milk, now go and get some more before I finish doing X") and it took years and a certain amount of mutual resentment before I properly worked out what was going on there.

I suggest having as frank a conversation as possible about all this with your H. If he really is being constantly critical, it might come as a surprise to him to notice how much he does it and what an impact it has on you. If it turns out he's actually secretly thinking what a fab job you're doing, you will be pleasantly surprised. And if he's doing it on purpose and has no intention of addressing it then at least you will know where you stand.

That's good Forwards, hope it helps. Out of the FOG is a great site and lots of help on there.

I really think you would benefit from doing the Freedom Programme (I've linked you to the 'find a course' page to find a course near you).

It is an informative, eye-opening course that explores subtle, and not so subtle, controlling behaviours. I wish every woman one would do it. It at least clearly spells out what we may be dealing with in relationships.

You say you may also be controlling in your way, may also be idealising him etc etc. But there is something chilling about the implied criticism, the disapproval that is like a poisonous gas, that is different to the general mistakes and blindness we're all guilty of sometimes.

You're busy analysing yourself and your behaviour, twisting yourself into a pretzel with 'I' statements, yet he can dare to imply criticism that his dinner isn't on the table at 6 sharp. This is in a whole other league, op. I hope you can see that.

That quote from Pat Evans is interesting, about them seeing you as a comparison to their perfect woman, not a real person. My x couldn't see me, to the point where if I ate when he wasn't hungry himself, I was greedy. If I slept when he wasn't also tired I was lazy. YOu get the picture. I was a sex robot, housework robot, childcare robot. He thought I was rubbish at everything though even though I never stopped trying to please.

This all seems to imply men are controlling but it can be women too. Thanks for the advice though. Maybe I will mention to my brother he might like to do it, due to his v controlling wife.

Do you mean the Freedom Programme implies men are controlling, Bath? They make it very clear it's men and women who control but, sad to say, the overwhelming majority are men.

That should change as sexual equality takes a hold in the next century or so.

So you don't want to do the course yourself Bath?