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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Original poster

Narc Rage....

55 replies

EasyToEatTiger · 04/07/2017 09:16

I have been told so many times to LTB and the Freedom Programme is brilliant.
Some of you have suggested that my husband is a narcissist and really I couldn't see it. He is not grandiose or self-centred in the way that an overt narcissist behaves. Has anyone else heard of Covert Narcissism?

For years, I have thought there was something really not quite right about my husband. He supplies all Gottman's Four Horses of The Apocalypse in spades. These behaviours suggest there is something wrong beyond just the behaviour.

His therapist tells him he endured 'benign neglect'. As far as he is concerned he had an ideal upbringing. As I understand it, something went very wrong for him in his mid-teens and he has never been able to maintain friends since.

OP posts:
ChicRock · 04/07/2017 09:24

Why are you so desperate to have some kind of 'diagnosis' for your husband? Are you looking for a label so that you can have an excuse to stay? Will it make his treatment of you any more acceptable?

Original poster
EasyToEatTiger · 04/07/2017 09:35

No. It helps to re-define boundaries for me. It helps me to understand why I have tolerated his behaviour for so long. It helps me to understand my own part in this and to find better ways of living.

OP posts:
QuiteLikely5 · 04/07/2017 09:40

Problems with friendships can be linked to your relationship to your mother - how is their relationship?

AttilaTheMeerkat · 04/07/2017 09:47

What do you get out of this relationship now?. Are you and this man still together?

What did you learn about relationships when growing up?. We learn about relationships first and foremost from our parents so what did yours teach you?. I guess a lot of damaging lessons which you have absorbed to this very day.

Do you have DC; if so what do you want to teach them about relationships and what do you think they are learning here from you two?.

Hermonie2016 · 04/07/2017 09:58

You will never get a full diagnosis (although it would be lovely if he could have something tattooed on his head so other women are aware!)

If your ex is a Narc then you will not have had validation of your feelings so you will need to validate your own feelings and rebuild trust in yourself.

When I left ex I struggled to explain what had happened in my marriage as he was outwardly Mr Charming.Since the separation his behaviour has shown who he really is and it's becoming evident to others.Again few people would know the label but does it really matter? He's not a good or decent man.

Recovering from this type of relationship takes longer than a normal relationship break up and distance is the best approach.
Your h won't get better so your question is what do you need in place to leave?

Hermonie2016 · 04/07/2017 10:02

I see defimate similaries in the description of covert narc for my ex so know what you are going through.Its horrendous and leaving is the only way to maintain your mental health.

Hermonie2016 · 04/07/2017 10:03

Problems with friendships can be linked to your relationship to your mother - how is their relationship?

Haven't heard this before but stbxh has no close friends and had a highly abusive mother who he has barely any contact with.

rebelrebel3 · 04/07/2017 10:22

What is he like to live with / as a partner? Am interested in Covert Narcissism thing but don't know much about this...

Original poster
EasyToEatTiger · 04/07/2017 10:30

This time, at least for the moment I feel calmer about the whole thing. I plan to return to the Freedom Programme. It is helpful to understand that his behaviour is NOTHING TO DO WITH ME.

My own upbringing was an unholy dysfunctional mess. A disaster, which led to hair-pulling as a child, then eating disorders and severe depression. Because the abuse was not of a sexual nature, it took me decades to understand what had happened. I really thought when I met my husband that he was a good enough man.

His relationship with his mother was at best strained. Needless to say he glosses over it. She certainly spat vitriol at him and regularly reminded him that he couldn't and didn't hold down a 'proper' job. Perhaps because of his behaviour he chose to work as a freelancer.

OP posts:
Dawndonnaagain · 04/07/2017 10:43

narcissism

Original poster
EasyToEatTiger · 04/07/2017 12:33

It would seem that narcissism is by and large considered normal. A great many people with personality disorders go undiagnosed and it is the people around them who suffer and can't quite put their finger on what's going on. I have met people with a diagnosed personality disorder. Life isn't easy and the reason they've come into contact with MH services is because life is so awful. But unless a person has the insight to recognise the effects they have on the people around them or how their behaviour effects themselves, nothing much will change.

OP posts:
AnnaNimmity · 04/07/2017 12:49

I read that there could be a link between a neglectful childhood and narcissism.

However, I think it isn't always helpful to try to diagnose the other person - you need to look at your needs and whether they are being met by this relationship. You can't change him, but you can change yourself.

donners312 · 04/07/2017 12:54

dawndonna - thanks for posting that it is the best explanation i've ever read my ex is a narcissist but totally plays the victim this completely explains that - thanks!

Dawndonnaagain · 04/07/2017 13:28

donners, I did over 20 years!

Original poster
EasyToEatTiger · 04/07/2017 13:30

I agree with you Anna. Armchair diagnoses in themselves are meaningless. It is helpful however to recognise a person's behaviour for what it is to understand that it is nothing to do with me, and there is nothing I can do about it, so what I can do is withdraw from the relationship and not be drawn into discussions.
Husband is going to see his gp and his therapist. His behaviour has been clocked by people in RL but not by his therapist.

OP posts:
keepingonrunning · 04/07/2017 13:50

I think armchair diagnoses are helpful in identifying the nature of the beast you are potentially dealing with and being able to wise up accordingly.
Breaking up with someone you suspect has NPD/ASPD is a galaxy away from breaking up with a "regular" person.

ALoveWorthKeeping · 04/07/2017 14:19

Agree with Keepingonrunning - I am in the process of divorcing my narc and the turning point for me when I "armchair" diagnosed him. He'd already told me he was one but I thought he was joking Hmm
Good luck with your husband, OP, they are slippery bastards.

Original poster
EasyToEatTiger · 04/07/2017 16:59

It puts things in perspective. It is interesting to learn that anti-depressants won't help him and neither will his therapist. I know my husband is a slippery bastard. He looks like a textbook case of Covert Narc. I've read an interesting study here It's quite long and it would seem that there are problems with diagnosis and treatment and more studies need to be made.

OP posts:
Original poster
EasyToEatTiger · 04/07/2017 17:46

I have long wondered if I am married to a parasite. Really it's not a nice thought.

OP posts:
donners312 · 04/07/2017 17:55

I always use the word parasite as well - that is exactly what they are!

PoorYorick · 04/07/2017 19:01

I'm really not a fan of this current trend to amateur diagnose everyone who's self centred and an arsehole as having certifiable narcissistic personality disorder. I realise that lots of personality disorders go undiagnosed because people won't submit to the psychological testing, but the fact remains that we are not psychotherapists and are not qualified to make such serious and impartial diagnoses just because someone we're close to is a twat. Actual NPD is a bit more complex than just being self obsessed.

Even if you did have a clinical term for it, so what? What does it change? You don't need a diagnosis for him to end it. If he makes you miserable you can leave, you don't need any further justification than that.

Besides, if all these awful people have certifiable NPD, then arguably they can't help what they do and we shouldn't be slating them so much.

AnnaNimmity · 04/07/2017 19:11

I agree, yorick apparently only 1% of the population has NPD, but a disproportionate number of them seem to be on here. It's rarely diagnosed I think. Having said that, my counsellor says she thinks everyone is somewhere on the narcissism scale.

OP if your DH is a narcissist, you can't change him and he can't be cured. He's unlikely to accept it if you did tell him. The only way is to either put up with his treatment of you or leave him and go as low contact as you can. If he's not a narcissist but just an abusive arse, still, he's unlikely to change (ime) and you probably need to put up with it, or leave

Do you go to a therapist OP? I think you'd find it really really useful in seeing why you have put up with bad behaviour for many years and how you can set up boundaries etc for the future. (I'm i a similar situation fwiw and have found counselling really useful).

PoorYorick · 04/07/2017 19:18

It's normal to display SOME NPD traits. It's especially common in adolescents and younger adults. My God, the delusions of grandeur I had as a fifteen year old.

But like most personality disorders, a proper diagnosis needs to be made by a qualified psychiatrist, and as a result of a constellation of symptoms and traits. If they fit enough on the checklist, they can be diagnosed with the disorder. If you're in a close relationship with someone, you really don't have the impartiality to make the diagnosis.

I've seen people decide their parents or partners are certifiable narcissists because they expected some free childcare, got pissed when someone refused to work for them for free or refused to split a bill. Antisocial and arsey, sure. Proof of a recognised clinical personality disorder? Not really.

Dawndonnaagain · 04/07/2017 21:41

My stbxh had a diagnosis of BPD. I actually discussed covert narcissism with his psychiatrist at one point, he was going to look into it. That link pretty much describes some of the behaviours I have coped with from stbxh. I guess there is an argument that he can't help it, but my children needed protecting from it, as did I. I have PTSD because of it. I do not doubt for a second that he completely and utterly believes the narrative with which he has surrounded himself, although I know that most of it isn't true.
My Mother was diagnosed a narcissist in the seventies. Mother was long and loud in her haranguing of folk that didn't come up to her standards. She is a classic narcissist, constantly demanding attention whilst ignoring all around her. Damaging others, emotionally, or their reputation because of some perceived slight. She's never kept a friend for more than a couple of years and it's always their fault. She has four children, three of whom have no contact. Says it all, really.

Hermonie2016 · 04/07/2017 21:57

I think if you are involved with someone with a personality disorder you KNOW it's something other than selfish behaviour.The complete lack of compassion is shocking when revealed but typically well hidden.

I have had previous long term partners and some were selfish but my stbxh has something else going on..I relate to npd more than any other diagnosis and know it's not just selfishness, it's a completely different level and it's the switch..the transformation and irrational anger behind a seemingly charming facade.

A few decades ago we understood so little about learning difficulties and thankfully that is improving..children are no longer referred to as thick or dunces.Their parents are hopefully supported not dismissed for concerns.

The same will happen for personality disorders (indeed Cardiff uni has just announced new brain scans that will bring greater knowledge to all mental health issues).

Until I met my stbxh I had never ever been exposed to such a person, his mother is very similar so I suspect genetics at play as well as nature.

Another feature is the malice that is inflicted on the leaving partner, there will be high conflict despite best intentions.I will be punished for daring to leave.My stbxh is single I suspect he will continue to be venomous to me until he has a new interest.I realise I was that person and couldn't see why his ex was so wary of him as he was utterly lovely..obviously I now know but I really did not suspect a thing.
My family all say the same, it's as if we didn't know him.

I really want it to be "normal selfish" behaviour because it scares me that he is in my life and that seems to be the big difference..I have never felt afraid as I do with him.

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