Narc Rage....

[EasyToEatTiger]

I have been told so many times to LTB and the Freedom Programme is brilliant.
Some of you have suggested that my husband is a narcissist and really I couldn't see it. He is not grandiose or self-centred in the way that an overt narcissist behaves. Has anyone else heard of Covert Narcissism?

For years, I have thought there was something really not quite right about my husband. He supplies all Gottman's Four Horses of The Apocalypse in spades. These behaviours suggest there is something wrong beyond just the behaviour.

His therapist tells him he endured 'benign neglect'. As far as he is concerned he had an ideal upbringing. As I understand it, something went very wrong for him in his mid-teens and he has never been able to maintain friends since.

I am sorry Dawndon. I hope you are recovering.

I agree that a proper diagnosis should be made by a qualified professional.

My husband has never been quite right. He has no friends, does things on his own in his own terms, does not mix with other people, flies into rages over imaginary slights. He can really be quite frightening. He sulks for Britain. There is something not right about him. He will either sing my praises or despise me. He's been like that with the dogs and sometimes the children. He behaves like a child when he doesn't get his way and has a nasty habit of talking at me, over-riding what I am saying, and having to be right.

One of his adult children told him that it was always a relief when he went away. Being kind, this could have been because life had a rhythm because he was away so often. However, my husband was pretty unpleasant to his first wife. I am definitely wife 2

I have never felt afraid as I do with him.
^This! He's been gone a few months, but I have a non mol order in place because although he tells his solicitor it isn't necessary I am terrified. I have nightmares and I know mentally, he could break me and coming back would probably be impossible. That sounds so dramatic when written down, but absolutely terrifies me, mentally and emotionally.

Easy I know about the sulks, the turning on a sixpence, the need to be right. I spent two years on this board before I got the courage to break free, do try to get away. He has damaged our children too. I have had one dd in and out of hospital because of him. Take care.

You too Dawndon. It really sounds as though you have been through the mill. I think the recognition that my husband shares a lot of cov. narc traits shines a light in dark places. To come from a dark dark place and to have to re-experience it is terrifying.

For most of my adult life there has been a psychiatrist, clinical psychologist or therapist lurking, which has saved my life. Largely through the NHS which has been a godsend.

Hermonie2016 what you write is so much as I have experienced. Although my upbringing was dreadful and dsyfunctional, and I had known people diagnosed with personality disorders, I had not met someone like my husband. When he left his first family the door was open. Yes, it's as thougth my family don't know him. His children keep away. I will go back to the Freedom programme.

I think if you are involved with someone with a personality disorder you KNOW it's something other than selfish behaviour.

Diagnosing an actual clinically disordered personality is a bit more complicated than a gut feeling from someone who is very emotionally invested in the person.

I wish I had a pound for every poster I've seen on here insisting their ex suffers from Narcissistic Personality Disorder and it is very important to know and understand this condition so you can remove yourself from the person in the correct and precise manner. Good God. I swear half these people just aren't capable of being in a relationship with a garden variety knobhead that they could just leave like any other type of twat. For some reason they must be intricately interwoven with a deep and complex disordered personality, and any exit must be an astonishing feat of long played strategy.

If you do actually read the diagnostic criteria for NPD you will see it amounts to a bit more than being attention seeking and shit at relationships.

I wonder if some people feel that they don't have a right to be damaged or hurt by crap or failed relationships unless their partner had some sort of actual disorder. Is that it? People have every right to be damaged when a relationship goes bad, for any reason. It's a devastating and horrible thing to have to go through. Nobody has to justify it any further than that.

OP - I haven't come across any other threads you've started so don't know if you're still in a relationship with this narc or in the process of leaving? Or thinking about leaving.
Personally, it did help me knowing about NPD, because it helped me to make boundaries for myself, go bo contact and learn not to get hooked into any of the usual manipulative tactics. I say, if you read the material and it resonates with you, and aids you in your own learning then that's all good stuff. After all, you know your husband intimately and we don't. Just because someone hasn't been formally diagnosed by a psychiatrist, it doesn't mean they don't have NPD. It just means they haven't been diagnosed. With the narc I knew, it is very unlikely that he would be in contact with a psychiatrist (given that he thinks he's right and everyone else is wrong), unless he had a complete narcisstic crisis. I read the diagnostic criteria and just knew. I really believe the knowledge can empower you, if you can use it to learn how to protect yourself and hopefully break free.

I understand, PoorYorick, that a formal diagnosis of Personality Disorder is complicated. At first, the person has to present themselves and articulate their problems. There are often other medical/psychiatric issues.

We have been promoting narcissitic behaviour for at least 30 years, so what was once seen as a problem is now percieved as normal in many cases.

That a person exhibits the traits of a condition, and their behaviour has been noted by other people, does not in itself lead to a diagnosis. It does not mean that the person is not exhibiting narc or cov narc tendencies.

We are all on the spectrum of personality and we all share positive and negative traits to some degree. Often people on the outside do not get to see the full gamut of behaviours.

My daughter has an actual diagnosis of NPD... and she certainly didn't have a neglectful/traumatic childhood - certainly not from me, anyway. Her biologically paternal side... yes. But my daughter was/is loved, encouraged to be the very best that she can be, supported during the cycles of her accompanying bipolar.

I personally find it very discouraging to read that "the mother and their relationship with the child is to blame", especially considering that there are those who turn to these boards for helpful advice (I know that I have over the last year or so) when they find themselves thrust into the nightmare of living with/loving someone who may or may not be NPD.

Further, NPD is actually incredibly difficult to diagnose. To receive a diagnosis the individual must first have exhibited highly toxic behaviours (my daughter knocked me unconscious and left me for dead, a few months after lying to the police in order to have me arrested/her brother taken into care - the latter didn't happen, and the police were the ones who managed to push through for my daughter to receive the help that she needed at the time).

Don't wish NPD on someone who probably doesn't have it/yourself as someone who has to deal with it. It is genuinely a living nightmare, not knowing from one moment to the next what they're going to instigate/say/threaten/do. At the moment, my daughter is caught up in the notion that she's going to leave university and end up working in Hollywood from the moment she quits. All we can do is ride out the storm and hope that it passes before she does something stupid.

OP, unless you - or anyone else on this board - are a registered psychologist... please don't try to slap a label on someone. It's hugely disrespectful to those of us living with an actual clinical diagnosis in the immediate family and discouraging to those who are seeking support in the wake of an actual clinical diagnosis.

Well, most of us display SOME signs of SOME personality disorder. The question is whether we display enough of them so that an impartial clinical psychologist could identify them as leading to an actual disorder. NPD certainly exists and I get that many people with disorders won't ever be diagnosed. But even psychologists agree that it's normal to display some signs of it, especially in younger people. I certainly did and I promise I do not have NPD.

It's just not feasible that every person on here and elsewhere who's got a toxic relationship with someone is in fact in the clutches of a bona fide narcissist. If anything, it's a bit narcissistic to believe one has that level of impartiality and clinical knowledge with regard to a complicated and emotive personal relationship.

A person doesn't have to have NPD be an abusive fleshwaste who's better off on the dumpster.

contrary, I would like to reiterate my stbxh does have a formal diagnosis. I know exactly what it's like to live with, (also reported to police for non existent abuse) which is why I have PTSD.
I think I remember other threads from you, I'm well aware that you have been to hell and back, if indeed they were from you; I hope things are calm for you at the moment.

contrary, I'm so sorry that on top of the nightmare that is your daughter's disorder, you have to put up with people speculating about what you did to cause it. The answer, of course, is "nothing".

This is another reason why the constant armchair diagnosis of something as serious as NPD really irritates me. To the point where we even have neat little abbreviations for it ("narcs"). Genuine NPD is too rare to justify having its own everyday slang term in common parlance.

I couldn't count how many times I've seen people, here and elsewhere, online and in real life, ask "Is my ex/mother/sister in law a narcissist?" The answer is always, "Most likely not. We don't fucking know, ask a psychologist who's got more than a highly partisan internet account to go on!"

It's as if people WANT their nasty relatives or partners to have NPD and honestly I am fucked if I know why. The only answer I can think of, as I said earlier, is that people somehow feel they don't have a right to be as damaged or upset by this person as they are, unless this person has some sort of serious disorder. Which also doesn't make sense, because if someone is really that clinically ill or disordered, then arguably they're not responsible for what they do and they need help.

And yes, all these "narcissists" probably do display similar tendencies, for the same reason that so many cheating partners follow "the script". It's called psychology and psychiatry. People are not robots and are all different, but as a general rule most of us respond similarly to certain stimuli such as authority, incentive, and getting caught in an affair. It doesn't mean we're all disordered, it means we're humans and for the most part share some similar wiring.

Honestly, the only constructive thing you can do in these situations is to try to look at your own mindset and try to see why you didn't see or didn't heed these red flags, and look out to avoid them in the future. I hear the Freedom Programme is good for this.

It's as if people WANT their nasty relatives or partners to have NPD and honestly I am fucked if I know why

I suspect it's because they've been hurt, they're very angry and for some people it's easier to make the other person into a Bad Person ... and there's no quicker shorthand than to say they have NPD. By definition someone with NPD is pretty much all we hate - selfish, destructive and generally as poisonous as rotten fish.

try to see why you didn't see or didn't heed these red flags

Because he was a covert NPD.

The clue is in the name.

What's your background Yorick?

Honestly, the only constructive thing you can do in these situations is to try to look at your own mindset and try to see why you didn't see or didn't heed these red flags, and look out to avoid them in the future.
What would you like to hear? Would you like to hear that I'm stupid, thick? That I allowed it? Or the truth; that I'm a highly educated woman brought up with a shit relationship model. That it's so fucking insidious you don't notice the gradual parameter shift. That the reality is that your perception of normal becomes warped. You are being bloody harsh. Unnecessarily so. If you have a problem with labels, perhaps discussing it on another board would be more appropriate, not on a thread where people are distressed.

What would you like to hear? Would you like to hear that I'm stupid, thick?

I have said absolutely no such thing.

Or the truth; that I'm a highly educated woman brought up with a shit relationship model. That it's so fucking insidious you don't notice the gradual parameter shift. That the reality is that your perception of normal becomes warped.

I don't really want to discuss my points with regard to your situation, because I'm not referring to it. Your ex-to-be does actually have an official diagnosis of NPD. I'm talking about the overwhelming number of people who haven't. And some of them probably are undiagnosed, but most of them just...aren't.

But of those people, yes, I can more readily believe that most of them have suffered poor relationship models and that's why they have these awful experiences, rather than because everyone's a narcissist. As I keep saying, a person doesn't have to have NPD to be a complete turd.

As I keep saying, a person doesn't have to have NPD to be a complete turd. This is true.
Yorick, to be honest I don't know if it's your posting or my knee jerk reaction. I'm an Aspie for a start. I apologise if I got it wrong.

Sorry, pressed send to soon.
I felt that I was being blamed for my own predicament. Hence the post.
As I said, apologies if I misinterpreted.

And this is also why I suggest doing something like the Freedom Programme if you haven't had a grounding in good relationship models...because it will show you how to identify the red flags you might not otherwise spot. This is the entire point of programmes like that. And it is most certainly not because people who take it are stupid. I have made no such suggestion.

Ah, sorry. I cross posted.

Don't worry. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough. I am absolutely not accusing you of being thick or stupid, or indeed anyone else. All I'm saying is that nasty people exist, with NPD or without. And I just don't think it helps much to pick over it. I think the only thing that helps is to take a programme to help you identify these people and avoid them in future. That's all.

pooryorick

You seem to be very angry about this particular issue or at least feel very strongly about it. I actually disagree with you, but don't feel the need to justify my use of the term 'narc'.
I actually think it's okay for the OP to use online resources, read up on the subject etc in order to support themselves to get out of a toxic relationship.
As for the 'narc' I was involved with, he may very well have had a diagnosis and not have told me, (it's not something I think he'd share openly). From my own experience, and from my learning, this person displayed all the of the criteria as outlined in the DSM-V. I'm also of the belief the personality disorders are on a spectrum. It helped me to know what I ought to do to stay no contact and to gain some insight into his cruel and inexplicable behaviour.
I'm sorry this issue seems to cause you so much irritation.

Indeed nasty people exist without being narcissistic. It was a great relief to me when my mum's social worker told me he thought my dad was co-dependent. It's certainly not a formal diagnosis, but it certainly helps to put things in perspective.

I've just looked at DSM-V. NPD covers a broad spectrum of severity. The highest functioning of the group rarely get diagnosed unless there is an absolute crisis. This does not mean they do not leave in their wake a trail of destruction.
At the most serious spectrum of NPD is Malignant Narcissism. here's the link

No, I'm not angry. Irritated, for all the reasons I gave, but not angry.

I have noticed, though, that people often get very offended and angry when I suggest their ex/mother/ sister in law isn't likely to be a certifiable narcissist but can still be a nasty piece of work. Often much insistence that you can't prove a negative and they probably DO habe a diagnosis they're keeping secret, and whatnot.

Hence my belief that, for some reason, a lot of people really, REALLY want it to be true.

Please take a read of the link I posted last time PoorYorick. It goes into some depth about the problems of diagnosis and the breadth of the spectrum. It is entirely possible that people posting here are involved with High Functioning narcissists, who rarely come to the attention of the authorities.

I have already reported my husband's behaviour to the police and will not hestitate to do so again. His behaviour has been destroying him for a long long time. His behaviour is NOT NORMAL. And frankly it is nice to understand that I am not alone and helpful to me at least to be able to frame his behaviour into something recogniseable rather than a set of random symptoms which I don't understand.

I did read the link, and it hasn't changed my views that there is more of an epidemic of women who don't question or recognise being treated poorly, than there is an epidemic of bona fide narcissists. However, as the link says, the diagnostic criteria are so nebulous that it's hard to find the common ground and indeed it very nearly wasn't included as a personality disorder at all.

So yes, I guess if you really want someone to have NPD you can find enough evidence that they have because the criteria are so inclusive and nebulous and largely unresearched. There isn't much agreed common ground between narcissists so that does leave the door open for more or less anyone to be "diagnosed" with it.

But I rather think that supports my belief rather than the idea that there really are that many genuinely disordered people out there. In the absence of much research or agreement on the matter, it doesn't seem likely that so many people could be properly diagnosed so easily, and by people who aren't psychologists and don't have impartiality.

Obviously I could be wrong, and perhaps future research will show that in fact 75% of the population suffers from genuine Narcissistic Personality Disorder. In which case we might say that it's actually normal, and it's everyone else who's got something wrong with them.

I guess to an extent it depends on what you want to believe. Personally I have no horse in this race. But I'm just not a fan of mass numbers of amateur diagnoses of serious, yet nebulous and largely unresearched disorders that cause a struggle even for psychologists.

It does seem to me that women are more likely than men to spend a lot of time picking over the corpses of relationships (of any kind). Men generally seem more inclined just to accept that something is what it is, and less concerned about the intricacies of what made it that nature. I wonder if that has anything to do with it.

Easy Have you considered that your DH's behaviour is also destroying you and any DC?
Have you considered you might have issues with codependency, given your admirable but possibly misguided dedication to helping him, regardless of the effect on you?