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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

I feel so mixed up. Is this controlling?

801 replies

Poppysquad · 07/06/2017 23:10

I am sorry, a bit of a saga.

I have been with my partner for four and a half years and we bought a house together about eighteen months ago. I have a son of 19, who lives with me, he is re-sitting his a levels at the moment. My partner has never had children.
Over our initial twelve months together he broke off our relationship twice. The first time we tried again, the second time it happened I did not contact him and left him alone and after time he came back.
There have been moments - when we took my son and a friend on holiday he told me that he would come home if the kids misbehaved. I ended up telling him that I couldn't guarantee their behaviour and I would rather go on my own. He was fine in the end.Since we have moved in probably every three months, he gets cross and threatens that he will leave. A number of these times are as a result of something my son has done e.g. allowed someone to sleep in his bed, i.e.the bed he brought into the house when we moved in, or using his speaker and letting it overheat. Once we reach this trigger there is a series of things that he says to me, like 'what do I do for him' - and I never support him and I don't do anything, I just come home from work and put the telly on. Just after Christmas we narrowed down the trigger for the rage as being the fact that I did not wipe down the work surfaces sufficiently.
It has built and built and just over a week ago, following a return from a weekend away, when my son wiped the table with bacterial spray and removed the wax and, so my partner says, allowed someone to sleep in his bed again, he just walked out of the house. Taking nothing with him. He just left. He stayed in a number of hotels for three nights. He called each day. Sometimes he seemed cross that I was not falling apart without him.
Then he came home! And here he is in the house, sleeping in the spare room, and I really don't know where I stand.
In terms of the controlling, I am expected to cook tea every night even though I work full time in a demanding job and my partner is at home and retired.
He likes to eat early so I feel under pressure to make sure I am home in time if I've stopped on my way home.
He is with me all the time. If a girl friend calls in, he just stays and joins in the conversation. I don't get anytime on my own.
He tuts and roles his eyes if I make a stupid mistake like dropping something,
He is critical of my driving and I have lost confidence in my ability to reverse completely.On the night before I went into hospital for a cancer biopsy with general anesthetic I knocked over a sleeper in the garden with my car. A silly accident and something I've done probably four times before. He had fixed this and I had broken it again. He was so cross with me that he said that he would stay with my during the biopsy, but he would not be here the following day. So, if the specialist had said that there could be an issue, he was saying he wouldn't be there. All because of a piece of wood. I was shocked.
He says that my son is a lazy s**t, who is totally inconsiderate. He is, to be fair, a typical self centred 19 year old. But he really is not a bad kid.
If I moan about how my son is behaving he tells me that basically it's my own fault as I had bought him up.
I don't know. This just sounds like a rant. I do know that I don't feel that things are right. I am worried that the nastiness could escalate. He is now in the house again, and I don't know what I want I happen. Do I want him to stay or not? Do I want a relationship with him or not?
Help ! Does anyone have any views?

OP posts:
AcrossthePond55 · 02/09/2017 21:31

His agreement is just words. The best predictor of future behaviour is PAST behaviour. He's not interested in changing. He's interested in YOU changing back into the doormat you used to be. You've spoken to him about these things before. He's always turned them around on you. The only difference now is that he has realized that you are slipping away from his control, so he throws you the 'bone' of 'oh yes, me as well, um-hmm, sure!'. Rest assured that his fingers are crossed behind his back!

Tell him that the separation will proceed as it is proceeding. But that if he is interested in 'saving your relationship' that he must attend relationship counseling on his own with a counselor of your choosing, whilst he is living elsewhere. And that you will do the same, with the same counselor. And then, when the counselor says it is time for joint sessions, you will attend sessions together to see if your relationship has a future. Tell him that there will be no 'intimate relationship' during this period as it only confuses things. See how fast he runs! Or how unfair or unreasonable he tells you that you are being.

IF a man is truly wanting to change because he realizes he needs to, he will do it for himself. He will NOT set conditions such as "I must move back in" or "I will only do X if you do Y".

When my now DH and I went through a 'rough patch' I told him "If we do not get counseling, and if you do not also get counseling for your anger, our marriage is over". He immediately agreed and he set no conditions on it, nor did he say that I needed to change, too. But ours was a common-or-garden-variety rough patch. There was no manipulation, no emotional blackmail in our situation as there is in yours. We didn't want to change who the other was. We had just hit an impasse (basically in child-rearing philosophy) and couldn't get through it on our own. Yours is a much deeper situation.

keepingonrunning · 03/09/2017 01:40

Read this and work out which one you are.

My guess is Overly Romantic Ronald.

If you want happiness, no more Selfish Stanley's, Ronald!

Poppysquad · 03/09/2017 08:54

Hi across a counsellor would see I see us both together initially and then separately. He has left the choice of who, where and when up to me as it is more difficult for me to find the time with me working so I can ensure that it is a counsellor who is familiar with these types of relationship issues. He is not proposing that anything else changes. He will continue to live in his place. There is no 'intimate relationship' to be concerned about. He's not running. But I still feel wary.

I've told him about the F It holiday too and, at the moment, he sounds very reasonable about it.

OP posts:
Cambionome · 03/09/2017 09:17

It's none of his bloody business to be reasonable or unreasonable, surely?!! Angry

Cambionome · 03/09/2017 09:18

You have split up, and it's your holiday, paid for by you...?!

AttilaTheMeerkat · 03/09/2017 09:31

Poppy

Its one step up and two steps back with you isn't it?. This bloke keeps reappearing in your life like a bad smell and every time he appears you get spaghetti head.

Seeing this man in any context as well has done you no favours; he is still an extremely skilled manipulator and he is still playing you like a fish on a hook. He wants you to go back into being the Doormat.

Given what you have been through with him as well, NO decent counsellor worth their salt would ever see the two of you together in the same room. Joint counselling as well is NEVER recommended for those who have been in abusive relationships so NO to joint counselling. A joint session would simply give this individual a further method to bash you about the head with, this is what such people really do in joint counselling sessions. He would sit there all pompous and take no responsibility for his actions either whilst making it all out to be your fault. Such charming but dangerous lovers can also manipulate counsellors all too easily as well to get them to take their side.

And if he wants counselling why can't he arrange it anyway instead of solely leaving it to you. His excuse re his lack of action here is that its excuses and poor ones at that.

If any counselling is to be done it should on no circumstances be with him. If I recall correctly WA stated that this bloke was abusive and so further talking to them is essential.

What did you learn about relationships when growing up?
I also think you learnt a lot of damaging crap about relationships when growing up and that has also done its fair amount of damage as well that continues to this very day.

I would also suggest you read "Women who love too much" written by Robin Norwood.

keepingonrunning · 03/09/2017 12:00

You're going round in circles. I strongly suggest reading the whole thread again from page 1. Everything you need to know is contained in these 30 pages, written over THREE MONTHS by goodwilled strangers generously giving their time over and over to counsel you from their experience.
I'm afraid no one can bail you out of this situation except you, no one can wave a magic wand and make this man Mr Perfect For You. He is far from it. FFS, Women's Aid told you he's clear cut abusive.
You're going to have to put your big girl pants on and deal with the consequences of your decision: to keep allowing this man into your life or to keep him out with a barge pole as UNANIMOUSLY advised.
Good luck.

Motoko · 03/09/2017 12:36

I don't understand why you are talking about having counselling with him. It sounds like you're thinking of getting back together with him if he agrees to it.

You should not get back together! Counselling or not. He is abusive! He won't change!

GET AWAY FROM HIM!

AcrossthePond55 · 03/09/2017 18:14

No. IF you feel you must then a counselor needs to see you both SEPARATELY first. The counselor needs to 'learn' you both on your own, without you providing ex-DP with 'ammo' or 'intel' to guide his answers to make him seem reasonable and cooperative. And without you trying to 'tailor' your answers to please him to make him want to change The counselor needs to understand YOU and what you want. And HIM and what he wants. Once that's done the counselor can lead the two of you to compromise OR advise that perhaps there can BE no compromise.

How do I know this? Because DH and I had a bit of it when we began counseling. We were both reflecting off of each other rather than being true to ourselves. Once our counselor saw this she saw us separately. Only then could I be honest and open up about his behaviour. Only then did DH state his 'facts' about our marriage. Luckily we were able to work things through. Some are not. A friend was told to run like hell after some individual sessions, and she did.

Personally, I think you know well enough exactly what he is and exactly what you should do. But if you feel you need a counselor to tell you, so be it. As long as you go into counseling honestly and alone.

And make him find the counselor. Because any counselor that you find will be 'wrong' or 'biased' according to him if the counselor doesn't do or say what he wants.

meyourelookingfor · 03/09/2017 21:17

Poppy,

I have just read your thread. Another voice of support here.

I would say the combination of these changes and your son leaving for university has left you in a vulnerable position emotionally. There is no doubt he is reeling you back in. Sometimes you have to understand that comes from his entitlement.

A few post back you wrote:

One other point - he suggested that he couldn't be sure that if, say, he fell really ill, I would be there for him. Odd isn't it? Surely that's one aspect of loving someone? Of course I'd be there and be supportive. I don't get that.

Earlier you wrote that he threatened to leave when you were in hospital and you woke up not knowing if he would be there? Is that love? No its not. Is that caring? No its not. I'd that supportive? No!!!

Please rethink this seperate/joint counselling. You will grieve for this relationship. You can remember the good times and move on. Move on to a life where you don't have to negotiate time with your son or where he sounds reasonable about holidays.

You will leave yourself open to rediscover yourself and may meet someone who is worth your love and care. We are here for such a short time. Don't waste another minite!

blessedbrianblessed · 03/09/2017 22:10

One of the things that most impressed me about the conversations which I had with Women's Aid when I was agonising about my relationship with my Ex-DP, and what to do next, was how the WA counsellors gave me the space and time to make my own mind up about what to do. They listened. They advised. They discussed options. They gave examples.

But they never directly told me what to do. Perhaps they do with people who are in relationships more physically violent and immediately dangerous / threatening than mine was. In fact, I am sure they do. I guess they could tell from the way I was talking to them that I was OK-ish, and slowing gaining a handle on what was being done to me, and slowly gaining the strength to fight it. And I particularly remember feeling that all decisions were in my hands and conclusions were there for me to reach, based on my own experiences, and, the perspectives and advice the counsellors gave to me.

And they continued to listen as I made perhaps four or five follow up calls to them over, probably, a two year period all told. Most of those calls were repeats of the first - but each time with more detail, a bit more understanding on my part, more clarity of what I was being put through.

Because I went back to my Ex-DP, time and time again. What do they say? It takes a woman, on average 7 or 8 goes to leave an abusive man for good? And I learned the hard way. And my God, was it hard. Harder than anything I have shared here - and I probably never will share everything I went through on this forum, because I don't want to. It's just too awful. It makes me sick to think of how I was manipulated into behaving.

And after leaving my Ex-DP, finally, for good, it has taken me months to even start to process all that. It is so, so hard, especially at the start when you've got away, you are starting to regain a bit of old ground, you are starting to feel that little bit better, that little bit more yourself - but you still have hope in your heart that maybe he will 'see the light' that he 'will change', that he will realise 'that you are really wonderful', the 'woman he needs to sort him out' and 'you will rediscover one another and live together happily ever after' after all.

I am sure that, truth be told, privately, some of the WA helpline workers to whom I spoke were probably ready to rip their hair out over the choices I was making then, when I, time after time, explained away / minimised / denied my Ex-DP's terrible behaviour towards me. But none of them ever let on that that was how they were feeling. Instead I knew that, come what may, they would be there for me, still listening, still offering advice, still supporting.

And I think that's what Poppy needs right now.

These forums are great - but they have at least two huge drawbacks.

a) we don't get the additional info of tone of voice as we do during a spoken conversation

and

b) we don't get body language as we do during a conversation in person. So we lose so much valuable information that enable us to accurately interpret exactly what a person is really saying.

There is a third drawback too in that we rarely, if ever, get to hear the 'other side of the story', but that's one quite separate - and giant - can of worms which we won't open here...

But the point I'm trying to make is that, to me anyway, Poppy sounds like she is gaining a bit more strength and perspective from doing things with friends and on her own. Great. She sounds like she is doing more things in her own time and in her own way than she was doing previously. Great. She sounds more mindful than she was previously of her Ex-DPs manipulative qualities. Great. She has got the resource of this thread to read and re-read. Great. She does sound like she is a little more in control again. Great.

Yes, she also does sound like she still has not fundamentally let go of her Ex-DP at all (the keeping his stuff in her house, the discussions about counselling, the relief that he's not upset by her going on holiday etc). Not so great. Poppy has not got the perspective yet to see that she's still checking back in with her Ex-DP with regards to so much in her life - because she has allowed him to keep in touch with her and so she is still responding very much so to the plotline that he is setting. But we're only truly free when we fundamentally dump the lines these awful men try to give us and start writing our own scripts from scratch.

Personally, knowing what I know now, I wish that I had run screaming to the hills from the very first moment when my Ex-DP started to leave off the 'love-bomb' mask, and instead show his true, controlling colours. But I didn't - because (knowing what I know now) I was a 'pleaser', I was a 'fixer', I was programmed by my childhood to put up with ten tonnes of crap within an intimate relationship, because I was a hard-working, diligent, dedicated, perfectionist, romantic, self-doubting woman that these sorts of monsters go for every time.

It's so easy to look back and think I wish I'd done this or that. But - and here is the joy! I am here now, typing this, in my own home, on my own, absolutely happy, doing my own thing, confident, relaxed, seeing friends and family when I want to, not dependent on any man (or woman) to validate me as a person worth of respect of love, and confident that I can have another relationship with a much better man, if I want to and probably when I want to.

And I guess I have got to this point on my own journey of plunging down very deep into that ten tonnes of childhood crap - and, acknowledging the whole reality of my relationship with my Ex-DP, not just the edited highlights. Poppy sounds like she is still yet to take that plunge.

And the point I am trying to make through all this rambling: we all have our own paths to tread in our own time and in our own way. And if we are lucky, good people will walk beside us.

Arkengarthdale · 04/09/2017 11:45

Fab blessed

Cambionome · 04/09/2017 16:47

What an amazing post, blessed.

Reading some of the posts on this thread has been very helpful to me, and I'm sure to many other people as well as Poppy, so thank you all. Smile

SuperSkyRocketing · 04/09/2017 17:01

Wow Blessed. What an inspiring post. It goes to show that even if you don't get it right the first, second, third or fourth time you try to leave, you can make it in the end, and you can't let those mistakes define you Flowers

AcrossthePond55 · 04/09/2017 17:58

Beautiful blessed.

And I think that's what it is with the counseling. I think our Poppy is still in the 'leave no stone unturned* mind-set. Most of us have been there. We knew in our hearts that our relationship was not good and that it was 'time to call time'. But still there was that 'maybe if' in the back of our heads.

If Poppy feels that she (they) needs to try counseling, then that's what she should do. BUT, she needs to do it with an open mind, complete honesty, and with the right counselor. AND in separate sessions. She needs to do it with the mind-set that the counseling is to 'learn herself', discover what she deserves in a healthy relationship, and to let go of a bad one. Not to 'fix' her not-so-dP or change herself simply to 'save' this relationship.

Bluebellforest1 · 04/09/2017 18:12

Thanks Blessed, that's just what I need to read today. It's helped hugely. Flowers

Poppysquad · 05/09/2017 22:33

Thanks Blessed. I think you've summed up my situation quite clearly. A pleaser. Someone who has learnt through a couple of life experiences that you put with pretty much any old crap in a relationship.

My ExP has been ultra caring. Calling me last night to see how my day at work was. Showing what the better side of being with him is. He is now in Spain but says that he will call and or email. And I am still very wary. Basically I don't trust him or the situation anymore. But it's as Across says. I am hanging on to a desperately hope.

I have found a very experienced counsellor. But I am stilll not one hundred percent sure about going.

OP posts:
Blossomflowers · 06/09/2017 11:10

Wow Blessed your post was awesome, such insight.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 06/09/2017 11:42

A fab post indeed Blessed. I hope Poppy does take heed of your words

Poppy
re this part of your comment:-

"A pleaser. Someone who has learnt through a couple of life experiences that you put with pretty much any old crap in a relationship"

Yep that is you and thus easy meat for someone like this abusive charmer to get his claws into as he has indeed done. He targeted you and your too low boundaries. You have indeed been hanging on to a desperately hope. Hope is a powerful force and right up there with denial that keeps people in relationships that went bad long before now.

Do go and see that counsellor as well you were writing about and do not hesitate in going.

Poppysquad · 08/09/2017 08:06

The counsellor is booked for next Thursday. I am feeling a little anxious about it. I am going to try and prepare myself. Be clear what I want to say and what I want out of it. I am also preparing myself for the usual barrage of all the things I do wrong. Which is what I heard a number of times before my ExP left. I am going to listen very carefully for any signs that he is empathetic or even sorry for what has happened. My instinct is that he thinks that how he has behaved is entirely justified.

I have recently challenged him about leaving me to do all of the cooking. In all the time we were together I think he only ever cooked a couple of meals. He didn't even make me a bacon butty or porridge for breakfast. He told me that because he did all the DIY then me cooking was fair. I cooked even when I was occasionally dead on my feet some nights after work, he never jumped up and said he'd do it, although he would sometimes help. He also said that despite him pointing this out in the past, I used to just start cooking, and didn't ask him if he fancied what I was cooking, I'd just do it. He's right. I did do this. Is that wrong? I checked this out with a couple of friends who have one partner (male or female) who does most of the cooking . I don't think from what they said that this is odd. They don't always check what their partners want. My ExP says that he says now eating what he wants not what I want. This was all discussed over the phone and I could feel myself blushing as he said this.

I have more recently started to feel angry about and have been ranting about how I didnt and don't deserve to be treated like this. I've been through so much shit in my life recently and don't need any more crap at home. And I'm sick of this. When I am angry I can feel my confidence growing and it feels like my self esteem is lifted.

In the meantime, he is still away in Spain. I have had emails and a phone call from him. And I am still sometimes slightly panicky when I am at home on my own. I am still seeking company whenever possible. Filling my evenings. I will be on my own this evening I want to overcome this. This cannot carry on.

This weekend, I'm off to see friends who are going to help me gather together what I need for my trecking holiday. And on Sunday morning I will Marshall at a road race, so blessed is right, I am starting to do more of the things I enjoy doing and I am sorting myself out.

OP posts:
blessedbrianblessed · 08/09/2017 11:55

Hello Poppy Smile

When you say the counsellor is booked, do you mean this is a counselling session for you on your own? Or him on his own? Or you and him together?

If it's for you and him together, I really don't think you should be doing this, and certainly not at this stage in your break-up. It will only give him an opportunity to have another go at you - and as you say, he can come across as so credible.

Bless you - you are so doubting yourself to the extent that you today you are questioning yourself if you've done wrong by not asking him what he wants you to cook him for tea after you've rushed home to slave over the stove after you've done a hard day's work! Frankly he should be glad to have a lovely woman cooking him anything at all!! Of course you've not done wrong! He's just being selfish - it's that entitlement thing again. And it sounds, again, like he continually puts the blame back on you for issues that he has a major part in creating.

Personally, I think you definitely need counselling but on your own, and for a good while, to help you to sort out your own self esteem issues, before you go anywhere near any such joint sessions with your Ex-DP.

Please cancel any joint Thursday session and do not go near that counsellor again. They are not up to the job.

Greypaw · 08/09/2017 12:13

Hi Poppy, I've followed this from the start but not yet commented. I wondered from earlier on if he'd be back to take further digs at you; my instinct was that he wasn't expecting you to end things and stick with that, so he was always expecting things to start up again. It sounds like he's still after a reaction of some kind.

Anyway, fwiw, I do all the cooking here during the week, and I never ask DH what he wants. I do the online shopping, cook, and leave him food in the oven for when he gets back from work. He's never complained, quite the opposite. And if he did, the answer would be that we could always share the cooking and that he could cook what he wants on his nights. Or he could cook his own food. It's not as if I'd make him something I knew he'd dislike, I make food I know we'll all eat.

From what your ex has said to you so far, I have the feeling he's giving away more of his secret thoughts than he knows. I wouldn't mind betting that he was always just fine with what you cooked for him (let's face it, he was hardly backwards about coming forwards when something pissed him off, so why is he only telling you this stuff now?) but that some time in the recent months he's regretted losing his chef and having to actually feed himself, so to ease the cognitive dissonance he's used it to turn you into a bad person. I can imagine him slamming about the kitchen muttering "have to cook for myself now, oh well, at least I can cook what I want, oh yeah, I just noticed SHE NEVER ACTUALLY ASKED ME WHAT SHE SHOULD COOK! THE BITCH!", his emotions spinning out of control as he tries to scrape the burnt bits of fried egg off the bottom of the frying pan with a spatula.

Anyway, I do all the cooking and also all the DIY in this house. The DIY is far less time consuming and tiring. It's not every day, or even every week, for a start. He's being a knob.

LisaMed1 · 08/09/2017 12:16

Poppy - he's never been backward in coming forward when it comes to telling you what he wanted, has he? If he ever had food put in front of him he didn't like, he would have told you, wouldn't he? He's not eating what he wants. His favourite flavour is food cooked by someone else and he is not happy that you're stopping him from getting it.

I'm safely removed from the situation but it sounds to me like he's clutching at straws. You always just started cooking straight away because that's what you always did. He never cooked (something that needed to happen at least once a day) but he did the DIY (not the same frequency). But look how he turned it round on you! He never cooked, never offered to cook even though you were working, so you got used to just getting on with it so he MADE IT YOUR FAULT that he never cooked. He is telling you that if you were just reasonable and DO WHAT HE SAYS then it can all be happily ever after. He is trying to make all your well founded complaints turn round to something that is ALL YOUR FAULT. He's doing a good job of it as well.

This is why you shouldn't have counselling with him.

IHeartDodo · 08/09/2017 17:31

Well my DP does all the cooking and asks me every few days what I fancy, but mostly because he can't think of anything and he'd happily just eat bloody chilli every day.
I do all the DIY, but also the washing and garden and some cleaning (we have a cleaner fortnightly). So it sounds like he's not really doing his fair share.
But the crucial point, which I think is the normal thing in relationships is not to be completely rigid about which job is whose... so if DP is tired after a really long day I'll cook, and if I'm stressed he'll clean the bathroom or put some washing on.. but it doesn't sound like your DP would do that... It's about having a little compassion, and putting your partner first if they're tired/ill/stressed. (Can I remind you of the hospital thing here..??)

Poppysquad · 09/09/2017 08:18

So, based on all your posts, I really don't have an issue, and it's another example of my ExP making things my fault. I must admit I sniggered at your post greypaw and although I doubt he's scraping eggs off his pans he is having to sort himself out.

I would much prefer that things were more evenly spread in a relationship as you describe Iheart and that's the way things were with my ExH in fact he used to do most of the cooking as he was home from work before me, and I don't remember him checking what I wanted each night.

And you're right - my ExP could see how knackered I was some nights but never offered to step in. He did however, do washing, weirdly even after he stormed out and then came back to the house I'd find my things clean and folded up.

I pay for a cleaner once a week as he said that he didn't retire to spend his time cleaning up after me and my son. And he did his own ironing, but not mine, our cleaner did mine. And if anything happened e.g. My son spilt something on the new carpet, he wouldnt clean it up. It was my sons fault so in his mind, it was up to me or my son to clean it up.

I wondered if it's partly because he's spent so much time on his own? It's not how I work. If there's something that needs doing it gets done. I don't try and assign responsibility. My ExP says that it's about consequences. If you do something wrong then you need to put it right. I think that this is what was behind the issue with the sleeper in the garden. This was something he had fixed for me as I kept hitting it but when I hit it again he was so furious and angry that this became the issue, not the fact that I was worried about the biopsy. I really think that he struggles with empathy. Is this an indication of some mild form of autism?

Sorry - a brain dump

I am looking forward to today. A day out with friends sorting out things for my f* it holiday. And I am just reading up on long dtsnace walking in preparation for the walk I am planning in May next year.

OP posts: