Do abusers know they are abusive?

[talksensetome]

I am not even sure if that question gets over what I mean.

Do abusive men be abusive on purpose, by which I mean do they think I am going to ruin this woman's self esteem so I can control her or I am going to cause trouble with her friends so she is all mine.

Are they manipulative so that they can be abusive or is the abuse just the 'side effect' of other behaviours?

I am asking because my bf (soon to be ex) is very controlling, jealous, manipulative but he doesn't see himself as abusive. When I brought up the subject he was horrified and thought I was being ridiculous.

For example....
He checks my social media a lot and sulks moans and demands that I remove people he doesn't approve of.
He hates my male friends and asks that I don't go out with them any more.
He tries to tell me what to wear.
He sulks and moans if any of my male work friends contact me outside of work but doesn't moan about female ones.
He calls me and texts me constantly if we are not together.
He changed his shift to be here when my ex picks up the kids and hates us having any contact even though it is regarding the children.
Sits on the edge of the bath whilst I am in it.
There is probably more but you get the picture.

Anyway I thought I could handle his behaviour but there is no reason why I should and I am going to end it but the reason I am posting is do you think he is manipulative and controlling on purpose or so you think he is just so insecure and scared of another man taking me away that his behaviour borders on abusive?

Within the population of people who are convicted of abuse, there is no higher % of mental health, spectrum disorders etc. than in the population as a whole. Of course, if someone has one of those problems and is abusive, the situation is far more complex. And some people can, at times, display abusive behaviour. We all know how to manipulate. So someone under extreme stress, or deeply unhappy, can attempt the same kind of manipulation, but their behaviour will change with the situation, and they are able to see what they were doing and change their behaviour (as shown by a couple of posters here).

But a really abusive person has a deeply ingrained sense of being right and their needs being more important than anyone else. So they'll go from one relationship to another, and break-ups will never be their fault, and they just keep going until they get one that 'sticks'. Only, of course, no-one is ever good enough for them, so their behaviour keeps escalating as time goes on. That's why it's important to leave. It will never get better, or reach a steady level that's possible to tolerate.

Where there's an abusive father, mothers can also be highly controlling. The mother is so desperate not to upset the father that she has to control the kids and keep them quiet to protect them and herself. Or she over-invests in the kids. Often when you see posters on here writing about their DP having an over-close relationship with a controlling mother, the question should be - and what was his father like? Even if the father wasn't around much, the effect of seeing that dynamic, that mother does everything to pacify and obey father, bleeds down into the next generation. Boys tend to copy the father, girls tend to copy the mother.

These comments are broad-based generalizations, of course There will be individuals who don't follow that pattern.

'my dp is quite bad but doesn't know it. i have recently noticed something else he does almost everytime i make a bit of effort "you're not wearing that are you?" he thinks it's a joke but i honesly can't remember the last time he said "you look gorgeous" or if he ever has tbh.'

[Gingerbreadmam Fri 02-Jun-17 21:46:53]

I have family members like this. I know that the reason they're like this is that saying positive things makes them feel very, very vulnerable and exposed. This is due to them having had anything that meant anything good to them relentlessly mocked throughout their childhoods, just like I did (by them).

The thing is... I don't care. Not any more. They've had years to identify that they have the problem. Years to admit to it. Years to ask me for help in getting better. Years to seek any kind of therapy at all. Years to sign up to abuse survivors internet forums. Years to apologise. Years to practice getting into the habit of being nice to/about people unless there's a good reason not to be.

And they haven't bothered. So fuck it.

Abusive people must know on some level that their victim is someone who would help them through any problems they have rather than abandoning them, because they feel safe enough with their victim to abuse them.

That's one of the tragedies of abusers whose behaviour comes from their own trauma; they don't act out their problems on anyone who is actually to blame, they wait for a good, kind, supportive person to come along, then squander the help they could have got from them by treating them like crap.

I think this applies to any abusive behaviour, really. If an abusive person has not only not been told that their behaviour is a problem, but has never witnessed someone's pain because of it, or withdrawal because of it, then I could understand. But I don't know that any that that applies to exist, let alone many.

I agree with one poster who said it doesn't matter but it's also sad because people don't choose to be abusers I think to a certain degree. They have been damaged themselves somewhere along the way. I don't know it's all quite complicated. Some people are completely unaware and unwilling to accept and failings of their own character. They can rationalise and blame very easily.

So true meadowlark

What do you mean soon to be ex ditch him NOW. It does not matter if he does not agree with you.

I have a massive interest in why people become abusers because my youngest son...now 19...came to live with us when he was 6. while living with his first family he experienced extreme DV as well as multiple forms of abuse. In spite of a lot of therapy in various forms over the years he still reacts to stressful situations...like me saying 'no' to him...with aggression, mostly verbal now. He is misogynistic and really believes he is entitled to anything he wants. He always has an excuse for everything he does...its NEVER his fault.

He is also the sweetest, kindest happiest child you could ever wish to meet and I, obviously, love him utterly. Its as though there are two of him.

I do worry about his future and am seriously concerned about him abusing a partner in the future. He is doing more therapy at the moment...in his words 'to help him clear out the rubbish in his head'...I would like to believe it will help but I have little real expectation.

I think by the time he was taken from his first family his behaviour patterns were basically set and he will continue to react badly to any situation that stresses him.

Great post westernmeadowlark

Strawberrysalsa I hope your son can work through his issues. Hopefully therapy can give him enough self awareness and understanding to enable him to have healthy relationships later in life.

Strawberrysalsa,

I have spoken at length with my counsellor about what has caused me to become abusive, she believes it stems from my childhood as father was a very abusive man (won't go into further detail than that on here), I don't like to by into that to much because I don't want to try and shift blame for my behaviour onto anyone other than myself but then again she is the expert not me.

I have noticed a difference in my own general behaviour of late as I am trying to be conscious and mindful of my own behaviour even down to swearing less. Admittedly this has not been tested in a romantic relationship and is unlikely to be any time soon.

Unfortunately unless he truley wants to improve and be better for himself no amount of counceling, anger management or therapy will achieve anything. Personally I am trying vey hard to change but still I occasionally find myself acting in an un acceptable fashion.

Abusers can change but it's a difficult process. They have to be willing to reset their entire world view. Lundy Bancroft has a book about healing & prevention. Basically, they have to accept that they're not the center of the universe. Often they've had behaviour modelled by a parent which shows them that by acting abusively they will get whatever they want in life and have the world rotate around them. It's incredibly difficult to overcome that kind of core value.

There are also intervention programs, but these tend to be for people who have been convicted of serious crimes, and are court ordered to attend as part of their parole.

Not read all the replies, but am currently reading a book called Why Does He Do That by Lundy Bancroft which strives to answer the very question you're asking. My DH behaves in a manner which might be defined as abusive too, although he exhibits different behaviour from the things you describe. It makes for interesting reading.

It's also worth mentioning that persisting male privilege in society generally will give some men the unconscious belief that they are entitled to whatever they want, and they react to being denied it like a tantrumming toddler being told 'No' by his mum. Others are more manipulative and may genuinely have no idea that the twisted way they behave is not normal.