Do abusers know they are abusive?

[talksensetome]

I am not even sure if that question gets over what I mean.

Do abusive men be abusive on purpose, by which I mean do they think I am going to ruin this woman's self esteem so I can control her or I am going to cause trouble with her friends so she is all mine.

Are they manipulative so that they can be abusive or is the abuse just the 'side effect' of other behaviours?

I am asking because my bf (soon to be ex) is very controlling, jealous, manipulative but he doesn't see himself as abusive. When I brought up the subject he was horrified and thought I was being ridiculous.

For example....
He checks my social media a lot and sulks moans and demands that I remove people he doesn't approve of.
He hates my male friends and asks that I don't go out with them any more.
He tries to tell me what to wear.
He sulks and moans if any of my male work friends contact me outside of work but doesn't moan about female ones.
He calls me and texts me constantly if we are not together.
He changed his shift to be here when my ex picks up the kids and hates us having any contact even though it is regarding the children.
Sits on the edge of the bath whilst I am in it.
There is probably more but you get the picture.

Anyway I thought I could handle his behaviour but there is no reason why I should and I am going to end it but the reason I am posting is do you think he is manipulative and controlling on purpose or so you think he is just so insecure and scared of another man taking me away that his behaviour borders on abusive?

not making excuses but i often wonder if they're background e.g. how they were brought up makes what they do seem normal?

my dp is quite bad but doesn't know it. i have recently noticed something else he does almost everytime i make a bit of effort "you're not wearing that are you?" he thinks it's a joke but i honesly can't remember the last time he said "you look gorgeous" or if he ever has tbh.

Gingerbreadmam: I think their childhood has a lot to do with it, but not all people with a shit childhood turn out to be abusive and not all abusive men had shit childhoods. My ex saw a very dysfunctional relationship with his parents, alcohol abuse , cold mother, low self esteem. He had bad anger issues and a whole heap of resentment. His brother is similar in how he treats his girlfriends.

Maybe its a combination of factors, maybe its a chemistry thing, maybe its got nothing to do with anything. But these men are adults, they make right choices all the time, and can sometimes show empathy, kindness, charm. Its how they manage it and how they deal with it that matters.

I think after doing a lot of reading on the subject its not all that helpful trying to get in their minds, its just muddies the waters more when you are trying to leave.

I think abusers rarely have insight into their behaviour.

Often the focus will be on controlling other people, rather than dealing with their own emotions. E.g. Partner forbids person to see other people - it externalises the emotion and feelings of insecurity and makes it the other persons problem.

So I think it's deliberate, but without insight. The abuser will either believe or rationalise that their own feelings and behaviour is not the problem, as they may fear or be simply unable to have that kind of responsibility for feelings and actions.

the reasons that people have no insight and poor emotional self management vary. A relative used to work with people who were in criminal justice system with mental health issues. She said it was the same story over and over: trauma. Of course, those people had created trauma for others, and so it went on.

However I don't think it really matters whether abusers do it deliberately or not. The behaviour is unacceptable no matter what the intent or cause. Would it matter if you knew either way? It would still be unacceptable.

pudding dp had a similar background.

i agree, the more you delve the easier it is to excuse unacceptable behaviour.

dp usually when drunk often tells me he is too good for me. I brush it off and ignore him, he couldn"t be more wrong. it feels so natural when he says it. It's only when i opened my mouth and mentioned it in a group i realised how awful it really is.

my upbringing has probably made me suceptible to these kind of men.

I agree with the posters saying that childhood has a lot to do with it. If someone grows up in an abusive or controlling situation then they instinctively revert to that as a norm and find it very hard to realise they are doing anything wrong.

Good luck OP

Both of my ex's knew exactly what they were doing. One positively enjoyed it and used to smirk at me when he was being abusive. He used to try out different methods on me for his amusement. Took a little while for me to see how calculating he was. Good luck to the OW he's shacked up with. I genuinely feel sorry for her (after I got over the anger obv)

I honestly believe (from experience, lots of experience sadly) that people who treat you like this have an internal 'wipe' where behaviours that are unacceptable or wrong just get written over with a better version of events. I have a parent, ex-husband and ex-friend who all do this (and yes, I know now, I'm much happier now I've spotted the trend). When ex-h was confronted with a moment where he had completely re-written history seeing him understand the 'true' version of events rocked him on his heels but I am in no way expecting that moment will have stuck. Same with ex-friend, when I confronted her with what had happened truly she was also taken aback and apologetic but I know she will have overwritten facts in her head with her version of the narrative. Some people are gifted with an ability to forget the true version and keep their preferred one (I know we can all do this but some people to a greater extent than others yes mummy you are a compulsive liar ).

Good luck getting out and well done in realising what is going on. I wish you happiness for the future.

I agree completely with reetgood. I do think some abusers know exactly what they're doing in controlling the other person but they rationalise it in such a way that they don't see that they are the problem. Hence why so few abusers ever change.

My ex was horrendously abusive very early on. I think this is how he's treated every woman (there have been many), something in his childhood has caused him to treat women like this (he's highly misogynistic) and he's adopted a victim mentally so when the woman he's with finally can't take anymore and leaves him he doesn't see that he's done anything wrong. She's left him so she is the evil one and so the cycle continues. He will never learn and I fear will only get worse.

All abusers have a choice like anyone else. They can recognise their bad behaviour and find the help they need to change but very few ever will because they crave the feeling of having control over another person and they have little or no insight as to why.

I agree with you there fifteenfortytwo, it's a form of minimising to say ''they don't know what they're doing''. They know enough to hold off on the abuse until after they've tested you, groomed you.

My x had a very low self-esteem and he had to function instead with purely inflated ego which of course needs to be pumped up continually. He inflated his ego by arguing with me, making me defend myself to him. The fact that I sought his approval and endlessly argued my 'case' to him obviously made him feel important, but not deep down. It only inflated his ego temporarily.

He may not have been aware that his self-esteem was in the gutter but he knew that mine was and he knew that he could treat me badly and I'd take it. There were various women at work he hated (he was a misogynist) but he was selective enough to be civil to them.

fifteenfortytwo you're very aware for somebody so recently out of the abusive relationship.

I found I had to cut out anybody who uttered shite like six of one and half a dozen of the other!

They do know. They just believe they are entitled to behave the way they do. They vast majority of perpetrators are men. It is a gendered issue because it is predicated on male privilege.

OP thanks for the thread. I wonder this about my ex abuser all the time and really struggle with it! I always remind myself of this poem(?):

"If you step on my foot, you need to get off my foot.
If you step on my foot without meaning to, you need to get off my foot.
If you step on my foot without realizing it, you need to get off my foot.
If everyone in your culture steps on feet, your culture is horrible, and you need to get off my foot.
If you have foot-stepping disease, and it makes you unaware you’re stepping on feet, you need to get off my foot. If an event has rules designed to keep people from stepping on feet, you need to follow them. If you think that even with the rules, you won’t be able to avoid stepping on people’s feet, absent yourself from the event until you work something out.
If you’re a serial foot-stepper, and you feel you’re entitled to step on people’s feet because you’re just that awesome and they’re not really people anyway, you’re a bad person and you don’t get to use any of those excuses, limited as they are. And moreover, you need to get off my foot.
See, that’s why I don’t get the focus on classifying harassers and figuring out their motives. The victims are just as harassed either way."

By
Hershele Ostropoler

The book on sexual violence:

here NB - This is from US Amazon - I live in the US so that's where I got the book from. Haven't checked UK to see if it's available.

And yes, they know what actions they perform, e.g. hitting, withholding money/affection etc, but they still don't see it as abuse, because they have a reason for what they're doing. "She made me" is a very frequent refrain. She made me hit her because she was arguing with me, or she made me hide all the money in a secret account because I couldn't trust her with the money, she made me threaten to take the kids and keep them because she's clearly insane if she wants to go out for the night without me. etc.

So they often admit to something like having 'anger management' problems, but won't admit that they are abusive or controlling because "she makes me angry even when I don't want to be"

Op,

You wanted to hear from someone who is abusive, in my last relationship I was VAC, I didn't see my behaviour as abusive at the time.

It was only months later after my ex had ended the relationship that I realise my behaviour had been abusive. My ex never spoke to me about my behaviour the was you have to your partner, I'm not sure if I would have listened at the time even if she had.

To all those who are going to want to beat on me, I am having counceling, I know I have issues I'm working ok it.

The abusive people Ive dealt with are abusive because they have poor pro social skills such as clear communication, boundary awareness, self esteem and so on. I don't think they set out to be abusive.

My exP has no insight at all. His behaviour with me was textbook narc. He was emaotionally and sexually abusive. I'm currently attending counselling. I know if I explained to him his behaviour was abusive he's look at me like I'd lost the plot. And then he would accuse me of being mentally unstable.
He genuinely thinks he's a great guy.

It's this bit that isn't right op Because I text you at 6 and you didn't reply until half 7.

Because he's telling you that you need to be replying immediately - to be on tap for him whenever he 'needs' you.

I think a lot of 'abusers' are just familiar with that kind of behaviour - that's what they saw or experienced growing up.

I have problems with insecurity and jealousy but I know it's something wrong with me whereas abusers tend to think the thing wrong is to do with you. Perhaps they even believe if you did A, B and C they would feel secure. But no one else can make you feel secure - only you can.

I've read and worked a lot to accept my insecurities but in the past I have been controlling in my relationships. I feel ashamed about it because it is totally irrational and has been difficult for me to control though it gets easier the more I understand myself. People always can improve but only if they want to themselves.

I like the 'get off my foot' poem.

I don't think understanding the behaviour, or knowing they are at many levels unaware, makes any difference to the need to leave. Either they are aware and choose to do it anyway, or they are not aware and so can't change.

Either way, let's keep our feet well away.

I think abusive people do what ever is necessary to get their needs met, be that emotional or physical abuse. The vast majority of abusive people I have spoken with have not been aware, nor have they cared about being emotionally abusive. However, it's more likely that, if physically abusive, they will recognise they are being ( hard not to I guess if you've just punched someone in the face)

OP, my exbf was like yours. Hated all my male (and female) friends, so we mostly hanged out with his. Would say I looked like a whore if I wore anything too short or revealing to his eyes (I'm a tomboy!!). He was financially controlling and would constantly put me down in front of our friends.

When I tried to split up with him he had a panic attack and when I finally did it (cue friends and family making waves) he harased me with suicide threats for months.

It was horrible. Such a dark time. I'm pretty sure he thought he was a great bf, but he destroyed my self steem and left me with a handful of anxiety issues that still creep back up sometimes.

I am shamelessly place marking. This is the question that has plagued me for years.

I think some do, and some don't. For some I think it's a deliberate tactic in order to exercise control. For others who've grown up in abusive environments, they might not know any different. For some who are unwell, they can be abusive but also be completely unaware of what they're doing.

I suffered from depression and extreme anxiety for a few years. During that time I know I was emotionally abusive and manipulative towards a boyfriend. It was not a good relationship by all accounts - he cheated and insulted me a lot, I was highly insecure and controlling. But at the time, all I remember is feeling crippling fear and desperation. When he left me, I was a wreck - I was suicidal, self harming, and I said truly awful things in an effort to try and get him back. My behaviour was unacceptable.

When I look back of course, I can see my behaviour was very wrong. But I can truly say at the time I had no inkling of what I was doing. Of course, had I been in the right state of mind I'd have told him to stuff it and I'd have left him because frankly he was a prize arse as well.

I suppose the only benefit to this is that I am now more aware of my actions and I know what to look for, so if I feel my behaviour is becoming unreasonable I can walk away or seek help. I still suffer from anxiety to some extent, and I am very worried that my bad behaviour will come back one day - I hope it does not and I try very hard to ensure it doesn't.

I am extremely fortunate to be with a lovely man now who has never once made me feel insecure (it's a very strange experience to feel secure and stable - I suppose this is what everyone else calls normal!) and for the first time in many years I can say I am happy. But the thought that I could potentially go downhill again is always lingering at the back of my mind, and I hate it.