Do abusers know they are abusive?

[talksensetome]

I am not even sure if that question gets over what I mean.

Do abusive men be abusive on purpose, by which I mean do they think I am going to ruin this woman's self esteem so I can control her or I am going to cause trouble with her friends so she is all mine.

Are they manipulative so that they can be abusive or is the abuse just the 'side effect' of other behaviours?

I am asking because my bf (soon to be ex) is very controlling, jealous, manipulative but he doesn't see himself as abusive. When I brought up the subject he was horrified and thought I was being ridiculous.

For example....
He checks my social media a lot and sulks moans and demands that I remove people he doesn't approve of.
He hates my male friends and asks that I don't go out with them any more.
He tries to tell me what to wear.
He sulks and moans if any of my male work friends contact me outside of work but doesn't moan about female ones.
He calls me and texts me constantly if we are not together.
He changed his shift to be here when my ex picks up the kids and hates us having any contact even though it is regarding the children.
Sits on the edge of the bath whilst I am in it.
There is probably more but you get the picture.

Anyway I thought I could handle his behaviour but there is no reason why I should and I am going to end it but the reason I am posting is do you think he is manipulative and controlling on purpose or so you think he is just so insecure and scared of another man taking me away that his behaviour borders on abusive?

I studied domestic abuse and even rapists/murderers as part of my MA.

From both personal interviews with men, and documents I studied, every single one of them described themselves as charming and kind!

Yes, the ability to adapt their behaviour implies that they 'know' but this is so buried under the belief that everything they want is right, that they just don't see it, and the tiniest bit of sympathy they show someone is, to them, a massive display of kindness and thoughtfulness. Getting them to see how self-centred they are is all but impossible, and without that they'll never really change.

I think deep down they do. But their need to control and keep their dps/kids in their place makes then think they are right and what their dp/kids do or want to do is wrong.

So they find anyway to get what they want. And push that its abuse out of their heads.

Kickass I bet that was a very interesting course. I was interested in criminal psychology but followed the accountancy route instead.

Funny how they all think they are kind and charming eh!

My Bf has very little self worth, it's almost like he loves me to the point of obsession and is so scared of losing me that he has now pushed me away. I foresee ago use threats when I tell him it's over.

*suicide not ago use.

So, OP, when you gonna get rid of him?

I find that interesting that some abusers look for signs, I would love to kniw what the signs are

It's not anything external. They will seek to "test" you during the early stages of dating. For example they will state fairly early on that they don't like you still having your dating profile open, and they'll guilt you into closing it down. Or they'll ask you to cancel plans with your friends so you can see them instead. Or they'll sulk if you say you don't want sex, or if you insist on using a condom.

Many women will stand their ground and many abusers will lose interest in these women because they can't be controlled. However for women who give in to these demands, the game is just beginning for him.

As to whether they know they're abusive - do they talk to you a different way in front of other people? If so, then yes they know they're abusive. I do think though that many abusers are simply repeating the patterns they learned from their parents - which is why its doubly important to leave an abusive relationship if there are DC, since you're teaching them that this behaviour is normal.

Bees on Sunday when I kniw my children won't be around. The last time I tried to break up with him he had a panic attack.

Pocket he did add me into a relationship on Facebook after 3 dates which would be along the lines of the dating profile you mentioned. Again more because he was scared aomwinw else would swipe me away feom under his nose. He wants me to belong to him it seems.

My H doesn't think he's abusive, it's the way he is, he can't help it he's said. But in the space of less than an hour yesterday, he was ranting about our elderly female neighbour being a cunt, the car that was parked outside our house but on the opposite side of the road was parked by a cunt, and then we got in our car and we were driving behind a cretin because they were only going about 33mph, he likes to drive 40-50mph if possible!
Sorry about the language but it reminded me of the phrase I read here, that if you meet one idiot in a day then they were the idiot, if you meet them all day long, then you are the idiot.

One explanation is that Abusive people behave this way because they believe they have a right to. They believe they own their partner, or the partner is there purely to meet their needs. This means they feel justified in using abusive tactics. Their belief system is faulty.
This is why male abuse of women is more prevalent in our society, because societal norms and traditional gender roles support an abusers mistaken beliefs, which may have developed due to childhood experience/personality disorder etc. The victims belief system may also be faulty so they don't recognise the abuse until it's too late, and extracting themselves is dangerous.
So glad you have realised, and he'll be your ex soon, don't get too caught up on why he is this way, what matters is you being safe and recovering!

If we say they aren't aware, it's virtually a get out of jail free card on their appalling behaviour.

They are aware.

Remember my abusive ex telling me once "I know I've treated you badly, but my mum put up with worse than that from my dad and she's still with him, so you should stay with me. Maybe that isn't rational. But I really believe it, I can't help believing it."

I think at some level his abusive behaviour was like that too. Part of him knew it was abusive, but another part of him was happy to find ways to justify it anyway.

Nope, they think it's normal and can't see or imagine behaving any other way. It's not a conscious choice, it's an automatic series of responses that are very unconscious. They genuinely think it's someone else's fault / the world is out to get them etc. They don't see their own contribution to their own suffering or the suffering of others. It's like they're running into a brick wall complaining their noses hurt and punching the person next to them.

Your boyfriend is absolutely emotionally abusive, OP. Don't wait till Sunday to dump him, just call him now and tell him he's binned. I foresee doing it in person will lead to things either taking a more sinister turn, or he'll try to emotionally blackmail you into staying with him.

Madge if only it was that easy. I have tried that approach before, he would just turn up anyway to beg me to give him another chance. Relying on the fact that I won't make a scene in front of the kids. If I stick to my guns he will have a panic attack.

It is something that I absolutely want to do when the kids are out and I can ring the police if necessary to remove him.

I don't think it's possible to generalise really. Insecurity is definitely a huge factor. Anxious Attachment styles resulting from adverse childhood experiences leading to abject fear of abandonment. This type may have an idea that their behaviour is abusive but feel powerless to stop it (which isn't an excuse of course). Yours sounds like he's in this category.

Some are the malignant narcissist type who can only feel ok in themselves by putting down others. Whose self worth is dependant on dominance and bullying. They may also have some idea but just not give a fuck either way. They wouldn't want to be seen as abusive by others though, their public image is too important to them.

OP, I think you shouldn't break up with him at home alone. For safety reasons, do it by phone or in public. It doesn't matter if he has a panic attack, it won't kill him. Stay safe please.

The style of abuse isn't really relevant - it's the fact that they're putting their own wants above other people's.

Abusers don't need to be consciously aware of what they're doing. We all learn manipulative techniques, and don't think about it as we go along during the day. But most of us don't think that we're really the only person whose wants/needs matter, so we learn to compromise and moderate our language. Somewhere along the line, an abuser hasn't learnt that. Whether it's because they see themself as a victim who needs everyone to do what they want because they're so super upset, or that they come across as charming, in control and smooth, but then 'turn' when they don't get what they want, they still have a core belief that what they want is what must happen. They just can't/don't see the needs of other people as being relevant.

Being unaware doesn't absolve them of their guilt - somewhere along the line they've decided not to learn compassion etc.

I'm in a bit of a quandary at the moment because I am not sure if my BF is showing some jealous and controlling traits. It's fairly new in so still on the good behaviour but sometimes a little glimpse of something that rings my bell. I'm super sensitive to it (and may see things that aren't there) because my ex was so horribly controlling and still is.

Ex sees me as a lesser, inferior person and that is where the nastiness comes in and the control, he's trying to modify me. So it's not abuse to him because he believes I am defective. About 2 years in, I was pregnant and a bit more vulnerable than I had been. I was also only 20 and he was 25. He believes he's wiser and more mature and knows better about everything than I do. I will never be good enough for him

I don't think they are aware. It's like in a movie, I remember some actor saying the key to playing a compelling villain is that the villain doesn't know they are a villain. Now this isn't true for everyone but do most evil people really sit around saying "ahahahah i'm going to destroy the world"? No, it's always wrapped in some justification and often in serious psychological problems.

Tbh, I'd love to hear more about the MA on DV offenders because I've found that people tend to think a bad person will seem bad so them seeming normal is usually read as being "unusually charming". I've met people who people say "I can't believe him" and tbh, I didn't really think that they were that charming one way or the other.

I used to think that my ex DH couldn't help it, then I realised that he doesn't treat his boss like this, he doesn't speak to his mates like this, his colleagues, so it must be a conscious or unconscious decision, they treat their partners badly because they can, they destroy their self-esteem bit by bit, until the partner is broken, you feel like nobody else will ever want you, and they don't start off like this, they are charming, once my DH knew he'd reeled me in, and I was hooked, and I did genuinely love him, they then begin their abusive controlling behaviour. And the trick is, not be vile 100% of the time, in fact he still could be lovely on occasions, it just mentally destroys you. X

I think for some abusers it sadly can be a little bit thrilling with the cover up of Mr Charm, it's like playing a character. They can't keep up the facade for long but it's fun while it lasts. There's a deep fear of someone thinking badly of them so the charm is to protect themselves from anyone 'peering in'. It's also showing your defective lesser inferior abusive victim that this is all their fault because they are the only one who gets this treatment.

I've met some overly charming people before who made me feel instantly sick - having had close family of NPD/BPD I can spot these coming. What I can't always spot are the ones who don't use the charm, aka the QUIET ONES who appear calm and thoughtful

About the MA: I just did one course about domestic abuse, male dominance etc. I found it fascinating, but also quite hard to deal with. There's a book where the writer interviewed men convicted of multiple violent rapes/murder.

They could all justify why they did it - she asked for it, he hadn't had sex for so long etc. One man, who broke into a house, hid in the wardrobe, then when the woman was asleep would tie her up, rape her and then murder her, said how he was really gentle and kind. That his victims all enjoyed the experience and would be smiling at him as he slipped the knife in. He even killed them kindly, by using a super sharp stiletto knife and sliding it smoothly between the ribs so that they hardly felt a thing!

I would be really interested to read that book, might treat myself!

He just text me....

Did DS2 have your phone earlier?

Me yea he has had it today why?

Because I text you at 6 and you didn't reply until half 7.

To him that's a perfectly reasonable thing to say but to me that is checking up on me. Maybe I am overly sensitive? The text wasn't urgent or even a question. Just pointless chit chat that didn't need a response never mind an immediate one.

Yeah, the average person - DV or not - is not really smart enough to carry out multiple rapes/murders. I just find the narrative that these men are brilliant psychotic geniuses playing some very long game very hard to believe.

I'm also not sure the notion that they treat their spouses differently refutes that. We all treat different relationships differently and often intimate relationships are typically the ones that show our real selves. The idea that people who are insecure, selfish, damaged and emotionally and mentally unstable are going to take it out on their wife vs a stranger is perfectly reasonable to me.

But... I'm not sure how helpful this thread is. Because people looking to excuse abusive behavior will find any crumb in it and that's why I kind of feel it's a bit irresponsible. The OP may find this helpful but other women reading it may find it another reason to stay.

i basically feel like I morally have to bow out because pushing back against the idea that this is less than 100% intentional (whilst true imo) and that these men are not criminal masterminds is probably harmful to women in DV situations who are struggling to leave.

I hadn't considered the thread feom that point of view User and I totally 100% would not want to discourage any vulnerable woman from leaving an abusive relationship.

Wether intentional or not abuse is never acceptable and no one should put up with it for any reason.

I was never trying to excuse abuse in any way.

I am in two minds about whether abusers know they are doing it, I guess some are more intentional (think Narc) and some aren't. I left my ea ex nearly 4 months ago now and I still can't quite believe he does it on purpose. Even though he sent me a message like this tonight after I asked he if he wanted to meet for lunch (because I want to talk about selling our house that he is still in).

Went something like this:
" Thanks for the offer, that would be lovely to see you and the boys"

To two minutes later

" When you see your friend at XXX (kids karate class, he thinks I have a thing for one of the dads, its so ludicrous its laughable") if he doesn't already know your single, tell him"

Too one minute later

"And that if he looks at me like that again I will drop the cunt".

Nice, isn't it? Why can't I believe he does it on purpose? Because I am in denial I suppose that the man I loved and still do, can treat me this way when he tells me I am the love of his life, he will never meet anyone like me again, blah blah blah.

Thing is the last 2 weeks have been calm and he has been nice, then this. Its the push and pull and not knowing what is coming next that is so exhausting. He thinks he is just misunderstood and he definately has shit coping mechanisms and thinks the world revolves around him. To everyone else, hes lost now, and is playing the victim. And the point is, he picks and chooses his behavior. Although funnily enough, lots of people have commented to me about how they had noticed, one person even said he always thought he was a bully.

Lundy has some good thoughts on whether its conscious or not, either way its totally not acceptable, and all we can do is gather strength and protect our fragile hearts :(