What do you do if you want to divorce but have no money, no family, and live in London?

[thewallsstareatme]

I've posted here about this so many times that I name changed this time (I'm embarrassed).

If I could rent a flat I would move in a heartbeat - in an ideal world I'd move out with the 2 DC, and then DH and I could figure out what to do.

I think the 7 years since we had DC eroded all the love, respect and everything we had for each other. It could, maybe, be fixable, but definitely not in the life we have now.

We just had another fight - it's really a sad thing to see two adults behaving so bad.

But the point is: we live in London, half his salary goes to rent, we can't even pay for all the bills. I'm a 38 yo journalist who have been freelancing for the last 7 years, which means I'm basically unemployable (I've tried). Journo salaries are so low they don't cover childcare, anyway.

We are not from the UK. No family, no relatives houses, no help with childcare. Nowhere to run.

I don't want to go back to my country, as the only option would be to live with my mum, and she's a bit toxic. (on top of that my home city is rife with crime, and the economy is not doing well either)

I chose a stupid career, and have no chance of getting a job that pays a decent salary, even though I have a Masters, years of experience, speak 3 languages and so on.

Really have no idea what to do.

DH's salary is not enough to pay for two flats (even one bed flats). I may be able to get some benefits, but so what? I could live on benefits for a couple of years IF that was a time needed to get on my feet again. But I don't see how I could ever make money enough to raise DC (with or without pension).

DH is not happy either. He feels trapped in his job, he's gained A LOT of weight in the last few years, plays too much computer games, has nothing good going on. He does the housework, but only if I ask (and sometimes I have to insist a lot - that's precisely the reason for the row today).

We have no money for leisure, for a babysitter, for a cleaner, for anything. We all wear rubbish clothes, we can't go anywhere. We are both tired, angry and frustrated, and that's why we end up fighting. It's pathetic, really. Anyone would say "just split, FFS!" - but how?

Which bit of London are you living in? Although nowhere is cheap, some areas are cheaper than others and most places aren't awful. I split from a long term partner last year, am a private renter, part time worker - I have a DD. My rent is reasonable for my area - Benefits cover that part of my bill. I have enough money to live on and am able to get on with my life - generally I'm much happier. It can be done in London but do look at what area you live in, and how much you spend on the DC. You can live a cheap but wonderful life in London.

Message me if you want a bit more info.

Hi thewallsstareatme

The situation sounds really difficult. I can empathise as some aspects of my situation are similar to yours; others are different.

It sounds to me as if you are overwhelmed at the moment. Do you have anyone in RL you can go over all this with? Do you and your DH agree that something needs to change?

In your opening post you wrote that in an ideal world you and your DC would move out and then your DH and you would figure out what to do. The world is not ideal, though. Would you consider the other way around: you and your DH figuring out what to do, then doing it? If you are not able to have a conversation without arguing, this might be a non-starter. If you are the only person who believes life needs an overhaul, and/or he does not see that the relationship needs some changes to be made, then a different strategy might be more productive.

Good luck

There are so many possible options that might make your lives better. I can see that you are under so much stress that having to sort through the options is just making you feel worse. I also really recognise the feeling that moving out of London will somehow be the end of a reasonable life - it took me two years to get over leaving, I have to say.

I think erinaceous's suggestion of someone to go through all the options with you (both?) is a good one. Ultimately you may be right, your relationship may be dead in the water (not good that you can't stand being around him) but it is perfectly possible that with a better life, things could improve.

OK you're going to have to drive this - but can you get a recruiter or headhunter who covers other cities to meet with your dh? Are you sure that Manchester isn't an option for him? Manchester itself isn't necessarily that cheap, though cheaper than London, but it's such a great city. Three bed house in Didsbury for £900 a month, any good? Leeds? Another great city with lots going for it. Sheffield? Also Birmingham is fantastic, don't knock it!

If you do move cities, go to the university employment office/agency. I have a friend who has temped for the university recruitment office for two years and has been able to pick her jobs until she has got the marketing/communications experience she wants, and has been able to sample lots of departments to find a good fit for her.

I really hope that life can be better than this for you. There is a difference between sticking out a bad patch (presumaby what he thinks he is doing) and not doing anything to make the bad patch better. Sometimes sorting the practical side gives you space to let the emotional side improve. Good luck.

Have you and your husband registered on LinkedIn? You are talented people. You speak different languages and that's in great demand. It's free to register.
Look on Rightmove.co.uk at the cost of places to rent all over the country. Put in your maximum spend and see how you can save by moving a little.
Taking the pressure off both of you may make a difference.
They say that when money worries come in at the door, love goes out the window.
Try and get UK citizenship. It may help with all kinds of things, such as council housing and benefits to tide you over.
Employers may also prefer it.
Your situation is not hopeless. You are just weary. Keep posting.

Financial pressures are awful. There really is life outside of London though. I am also not British and we made the move out of London before children. Live near a city. Loads to do with the kids and housing is vastly more affordable.

There is also plenty of work in places like Birmingham, Leeds, Newcastle, Cambridge etc.. Most of my friends made the move out of London and none have regretted it. Loads of foreign people too.

My children go to massively multicultural schools, no need to be in London for that either.

Thanks everyone for the very kind replies.

We both come from a big city in the developing world, and I think we are both afraid of living in a smaller place, having only lived in huge metropolises (just checked and that's the plural of "metropolis," as weird as it sounds!).

And I admit I'm already bored to death with my local life of parks and school gates. I miss going to places, meeting interesting people, learning things. This is a huge thing of being a journalist - I used to write about science, so I was always learning something new, interviewing some interesting scientist or even going to events where people talked about IDEAS.

But on the other hand my life in London has been so boring in the last few years that it could improve elsewhere.

I'm very concerned about schools too. We would have to move somewhere with a good school. Where I live, the best school in the neighbourhood has a catchment area of 150 metres. DC1 school (not this one) is good, but I'm not completely satisfied with it.

DH thinks that things will improve if he holds on for long enough. (as you guessed, annandale)

I live in SE London. DH says he doesn't want to live further away, as it already takes him one hour each way to get to work (we use the train, but we are in that bit of London where you can still get a tube and then a bus, or DLR and a bus to get home, so he doesn't feel trapped by the train - which is not very reliable, as we know)

out2pasture I had no idea of that, thanks!

I think DH and I were thinking that we could wait until DC2 started school, and then I would start earning some money.

To all of you who say 3 languages, years of experience, good writing are enough to get a job, I really hope you're right!

My experience has been that in London there are LOADS of people who are as good as me, but 10 years younger and with no family! So WHY, oh WHY, would someone hire a woman with 2 kids if they can hire a 28 yo girl who can put much more energy into the job? (I've been that 28 yo, BTW. I did prioritise my work at that time, in a way I wouldn't now).

(I've applied for quite a few jobs in the past few months, and got 1 interview out of many applications. Not being called for interviews was very off putting. DH and I decided to give it a break until DC2 starts school, and then I'll start again)

Dear OP, here a few virtual hugs from a fellow foreigner!

I so know where you are coming from, I have been in your shoes, and to a certain extent I still am.

You have been given a lot of useful advice, and I don't have that much more to offer, other than letting you know that it will get better. Your DCs will be grow up and become more independent, and you will work it out with work and money.

I remember when we first moved to England as a young family. DH's family (he's English) could not help as much as they had said, and it was so bloody hard. Having little children is incredibly hard in this country! I'm from Denmark, and our DC had been in full time day nurseries at a very low cost, and when we arrived in England, I couldn't work fulltime anymore because the childcare provisions were so expensive. DH couldn't find work, and we were so poor, and it felt like we would never get out of the poverty cycle. But we did. It was hard and it took time. Our relationship suffered. We both had massive stress problems. We often spoke of divorce, but that would just have made things even worse! And we haven't really recovered fully yet, but we are getting there. For us it was very hard to be supportive of each other during the hard times, we just didn't have much to give.

Have you thought about freelance translation? I'm a former language teacher, and I have now worked as a freelance translator for 8 years. There are many journalists in the field. Look at Proz.com, that's where I started. You are very welcome to PM me, I can help you set up and avoid the worst pitfalls.

christmas I would love to live in Cambridge, or Oxford. But house prices are nearly the same as London.

For those who asked, DH works with advertising. Very hard to work outside the big centres.

Luminaries 48k is way more than the jobs I've been applying to, so that's encouraging :)

hopelessly yes, it sounds ridiculous, but in London you need something close to 100k to live with a bit of comfort (and I mean A BIT). He earns closer to 50 than 100.

We once did one of those Guardian quizzes and our income, in our situation in the area we live in (zone 3, we're not even in Central London) we are "struggling middle class". :)

We would be comfortable if we didn't have kids, but his salary (and my earning power) for a family of 4 is just not enough.

I don't blame myself for choosing to be a journalist. It was a bit of a stupid decision, but the point is that there's nothing else I can do!!! I'm a good reporter, a good writer. I have just written a book in my native language and got some very good feedback from knowledgeable people (it's not been published yet).

But there is nothing else I can do. I'm rubbish with marketing, with organization, with interpersonal skills, etc.

I would have chosen a more profitable career, but I don't think I could be good in any of them. And, of course, I was 17. I can expect my 17 yo self(or the early 20s) to make a decision with the mind I have now.

OP, my (ex) H works in London and it takes him an hour to get to work (by mainline train and bike), the same as your H. The difference is that we live 30 miles from London so house prices are much much less. You can rent a 3 bed house here for £1000 a month. Most of our neighbours are young ex-London families because they can't afford to live there with kids so guess what they are just like you!

The schools in our area are outstanding. There is plenty to do locally for the kids and perfectly good bars and restaurants. If I want to go up to London for the day it takes 40 minutes on the main line train and costs £12 so its not like we are living at the end of the world.

Yes, he has to get the last train home after a night out and occasionally the trains are delayed. But how important is that to you really? How many nights out do you go on?

There are advertising jobs in other places. Maybe not the glamorous side, but I have met lots of people with interesting careers in advertising outside London.

Also the train may not be reliable in SE London (Southern Rail) but you would be surprised how much more reliable it is in other areas. I live Outside London and it takes my DH often only about 1 hour to get to work (sometimes longer because he walks quite a bit of it).

People change career all the time! You seem to have a lot of confidence issues. Have you contacted trade publications? Do you have software skills - there is a lot of need for good writing on the internet. Maybe try to find some careers advice, to explore your options (or get a book like "What Colour is my parachute").

OP, if you are already commuting for an hour, come to Birmingham or coventry. I lived in London and moved out - my salary dropped but my spending power doubled! Best decision I made.

Take a look at Leamington spa, Stratford and Warwick for advertising jobs - there are a lot of agencies that way. For yourself, take a look at communications officers or PR jobs. They usually specify journalistic experience. Remote working writing as a science blogger may be an option too.

I agree SE London (southern) tends to be a black spot for commuting. My commute from Streatham was pretty much the same as my commute from Epsom for that very reason.

I think you really need to work out what the problem is - truthfully you sound bored and I think that is normal really when you reach a crossroads in life.

There are lots of areas outside of London that offer a one hour commute and cheaper living costs than SE London. The schools in the home counties are good (Surrey for example has some really good primary and secondary schools). You seem to be trapped in the must live in London mentality that a lot of people get

I used to be a journo so know what you mean, but honestly, you're still young and very hireable but need to change how you think about yourself, probably starting by not thinking of yourself as a journo! There's all manner of content jobs in London that need good writers, but you have to let go of the '20 years ago I made this big mistake' and embrace the new opportunities. Have a look at stuff like this and don't focus on the bulletpoints that you don't have (classic female behaviour, I know!) but instead look at all you can bring to it, most of all an openness and willingness to learn: jobs.jobvite.com/gds/job/oGW14fwr

Gigs like this pay decent money, have flexible working, and would be a positive platform to plan your next steps. It's impossible to solve everything at once. As you're finding, it just makes you spiral down. But you're smart and self-aware, make a list and action it and little by little you'll get there...

quartz

I live in SE SW border - zone 3/4 border with a fast train that takes 15 mins into central London - it can be done!

I think your main priority now is to earn more money in whichever way you can. If that is working in the local pub in the evening after your dh is home then that be it. Once you have a bit more money then you can see whether the issues with your husband are due to your relationship or due to struggling with money. It sounds like you need to give up your journalism dream and it also sounds like your family can't afford to have a sahp.

Also I don't believe this:

"I'm rubbish with marketing, with organization, with interpersonal skills, etc."

And it's not helpful for you to believe it. Be nicer to yourself. That's the first step.

Have you two researched advertising jobs around the uk? My dh maintained there was no work for him up north (different field).... But when he actually researched there was a fair amount, and paying a good salary, albeit less interesting and cutting edge.

It comes across to me as if you are trying to address all the problems you are encountering, on your own, and making a number of concessions to your DH's concerns regarding his commute and career. It also comes across to me that you would like to be working, and not just for the money - I don't know if that's true or not. If money were no object would you like to be working?

Your DH and you problem solving jointly is more likely to resolve things. You sound talented to me and you sound as if you are berating yourself for your choices.

Unlike a pp, I do believe what you wrote about being rubbish at certain things, or I believe that you feel that way at the moment in any case. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses. My experience is that these "soft skill" things can to some extent be learned and practiced and to some extent they cannot. I gave up on developing certain "soft skills" beyond a rudimentary level and just forgive myself for being crap at them. I am a big believer in asking for help though, and leaning on friends who have skills that I lack - for everything including career-related pointers. There are loads of talented people on MN who share general pointers in the various forums as well.

Not sure any of that was helpful. One thing that helped me recently was mapping out all possible options on a big piece of paper using colored pens, and striking out the ones which I couldn't do or refused to do for whatever reason. By process of elimination I found which changes to prioritize. This makes it sound straightforwardly and it isn't but having my colossal and entangled mess mapped out in front of me did help me get a few things straight in my head and question some assumptions I had been making about what was and what would not be possible.

Just to clarify - it's not that I don't believe people have weaknesses, I just think a journalist probably has good enough interpersonal skills to get by, and probably the same goes for marketing and organisational skills. As a journo, you're tuned into marketing in as much as you're finding an angle for the story that would interest a reader, and you must have decent organisation skills or you'd not turn up to interviews and miss your deadlines. As with other elements of her post, I get the sense OP is very harsh on herself and that dismissing herself as 'rubbish' at these skills, which must be quite core to her work so far, says more about her current lack of self-worth than any objective truth about her skillset.

I haven't read every reply, but I agree with you OP - writing of any kind pays absolute shit! I wanted to be a journalist and did writing courses and tried and tried to get work writing and all I can say is that it's the lucky few who can actually make a living by writing. Everyone else needs a well-paid partner or some other income.

So my advice to you would be twofold:

1. Accept that you cannot make ends meet as a journalist and then figure out something else that you could do to make a living. Could you retrain as a teacher? A full-time PGCE is one (very busy!) year, but with three languages at your disposal could you be a language teacher? If the answer is 'No, I would HATE to be a teacher', then you need to put your thinking cap on and figure out what you can and do want to do, because the only way out of this mess of a marriage is through you earning a proper wage.

2. You need to accept right now that you need move out of London. You most certainly don't need to live with your (D)H in the future, but you do need to move out of London to pay two lots of rent. It does indeed sound like your marriage is over, so instead of coming up with lots of reasons why you CAN'T split and you CAN'T possibly move I would accept right now that you CAN split, but it WILL involve leaving London. It will be hard, but it won't be the end of the world. Many of us on MN have made the move and you will be able to get loads of advice on here about where you could start looking to move to. So start doing your research about where you can afford 2 x two bed flats in the London catchment area, if your DH wants to keep his current job and take it from there.

Valid @pinkdelight - I know next to nothing about journalism and hadn't thought of the connection to marketing skills for example. There is a difference between believing you are rubbish at something, and being rubbish at it, sort of thing.

Also - go to the 'entitled to' calculator here www.moneysavingexpert.com/family/benefits-check and see what benefits you could get as a single parent.

Thanks everyone! You people have helped a lot. I'm feeling a bit more optimistic, and now I have a few places to look when it comes to work.

I've been thinking about your comments, and I'm trying to see things from a different angle. I'll have a chat with DH tonight, which may be good or useless. We've had loads of chats already, but let's see.

But there is nothing else I can do. I'm rubbish with marketing, with organization, with interpersonal skills, etc.

I would definitely be trying to develop/improve these if you are looking for work!

thewallsstareatme I really think you need to start thinking about yourself in a more positive light!

Many of us have said that we think you are very bright with a Masters and three languages under your belt. British people are not great at languages, I know sweeping generalization but I am British and I do think it is true!

"So WHY, oh WHY, would someone hire a woman with 2 kids if they can hire a 28 yo girl who can put much more energy into the job?"

Well, for a start potential employers are not allowed (as far as I know) to ask you about your kids and so, unless you mention them on your CV, they should not be relevant to the whole finding a job thing.

"I did prioritise my work at that time, in a way I wouldn't now." Well, as a parent I know my kids will always come first, if they are ill or need me then I am there. But most working days they are at school and I am free to be at work, and then, I prioritize work and get things gone.

"I've applied for quite a few jobs in the past few months, and got 1 interview out of many applications."

How many did you apply for?

I think you need to be doing several a week and then when the application has gone off, forget it. Just leave it until you hear or don't hear.

"Not being called for interviews was very off putting." Try and let it go, it is not personal.

"DH and I decided to give it a break until DC2 starts school, and then I'll start again."

When will that be, this September?

You need to not be too worried if not called for a job interview. You need to remember it is not just about you, they will have had loads of other applicants. Someone else may be just what they were looking for, and that is not your fault! Another day you may be just what they are looking for.

Please look through your CV and your info and make sure you are really presenting the best side of you. You can offer so much more than some random 28 year old. You need to remember that! You need to present that.

If you want to start working in education this September you need to be looking fairly soon, I think a job in education may be recruited for in May or June or July (because August they may well not be working at all). So for a start in September they may look into recruiting very soon, waiting until your dd is actually at school seems not to make the most of the time. Also universities often start but later than schools so your dd might well be in school before the job actually starts.

Re "I'm rubbish with marketing, with organization, with interpersonal skills, etc."

You may not want to work in marketing for an organisation that does that, so it is fine not to be good at it.

But you do need to learn how to identify your strengths and then market yourself, IMHO.

I won;t tell you that you should stay together or split up, or that you should leave London or stay put.

These are for you to work out.

Best of luck.