What do you do if you want to divorce but have no money, no family, and live in London?

[thewallsstareatme]

I've posted here about this so many times that I name changed this time (I'm embarrassed).

If I could rent a flat I would move in a heartbeat - in an ideal world I'd move out with the 2 DC, and then DH and I could figure out what to do.

I think the 7 years since we had DC eroded all the love, respect and everything we had for each other. It could, maybe, be fixable, but definitely not in the life we have now.

We just had another fight - it's really a sad thing to see two adults behaving so bad.

But the point is: we live in London, half his salary goes to rent, we can't even pay for all the bills. I'm a 38 yo journalist who have been freelancing for the last 7 years, which means I'm basically unemployable (I've tried). Journo salaries are so low they don't cover childcare, anyway.

We are not from the UK. No family, no relatives houses, no help with childcare. Nowhere to run.

I don't want to go back to my country, as the only option would be to live with my mum, and she's a bit toxic. (on top of that my home city is rife with crime, and the economy is not doing well either)

I chose a stupid career, and have no chance of getting a job that pays a decent salary, even though I have a Masters, years of experience, speak 3 languages and so on.

Really have no idea what to do.

DH's salary is not enough to pay for two flats (even one bed flats). I may be able to get some benefits, but so what? I could live on benefits for a couple of years IF that was a time needed to get on my feet again. But I don't see how I could ever make money enough to raise DC (with or without pension).

DH is not happy either. He feels trapped in his job, he's gained A LOT of weight in the last few years, plays too much computer games, has nothing good going on. He does the housework, but only if I ask (and sometimes I have to insist a lot - that's precisely the reason for the row today).

We have no money for leisure, for a babysitter, for a cleaner, for anything. We all wear rubbish clothes, we can't go anywhere. We are both tired, angry and frustrated, and that's why we end up fighting. It's pathetic, really. Anyone would say "just split, FFS!" - but how?

Any advice? I could really do with some help... Thanks!

If you think there's hope for your relationship but not where you are now, and neither of you seem to like any aspect of your lives, have you considered moving out of London?

The cost of living is normally much lower. Your husband may earn less, but I suggest thinking about whether it's a possibility that could lead to a better quality of life overall.

I'm not sure how old your kids are, but how long is it until you get free nursery hours/both of them are in school? That could give you some time to get at least a part-time job to build a recent employment record.

Sorka, we discussed moving out of London, but he works in an industry where all jobs are in the big capitals, so not many options in the UK (maybe Edinburgh or Birmingham, at a push).

We have discussed moving out of the UK, but he need to have the British citizenship before that (we've been here for over 10 years, but never made it - which shows how stupid we both are).

However, he won't move anywhere by himself. I'll have to make the decision and orchestrate everything, or it doesn't happen. That was how we moved here, that's how we decided to have DC. A few years ago he said he wanted to to move back to our home country, and I said "ok". He never lifted a finger.

DC2 will start school soon, and I will look for work. But really, I feel like all these "part time jobs" people talk about are just a big hoax, as I've never seen any in real life. (The only people I know who work part time are the ones who already had the job and after 10 years in the company managed to reduce the hours to something like 30 a week.)

I could maybe (just maybe) get a temp job, but journo work part time (that pays at all!) is probably too much to ask.

Could you move out of London and he could commute in? Take the pressure off?

thewallsstareatme I am sorry to hear things are so bad.

I wonder if you and your dh really want to split up or maybe if you would be able to make a newer better life elsewhere?

It sounds like there are only two options for you, stay in London in poverty together or go back to your own country alone, with your toxic mum. Neither of these sound like good options to me.

Do you love your dh, or could you if you worked at this together?

Why not see if you can get some relate type counselling for free. It may be out there if you look for it.

Together work out what you would like to do.

Could you retrain at all? If you have a background in journalism, "...a Masters, years of experience, speak 3 languages and so on..." Could you explore teaching at a university, college of further or higher etc. Rules about who can and cannot work in private schools, colleges of higher/further/universities etc are different from schools and so not having a teaching degree would not necessarily be a problem. The money is most likely not great but you may find there are other things you could do as well and continue with journalism when you can.

It sounds like your dh is very unhappy and really his weight and life choices are not inevitable. Yes, i am overweight too so I know how easy it is! But "plays too much computer games, has nothing good going on..." Could he get motivated, try some sports, many are quite cheap to do, like going for a swim, or other things like jogging are free. Maybe working on his physical side will motivate his mind.

It does sound like you would be better off together financially but only if you can work out your differences and build a better life together.

The arguments etc sound like you cannot agree on a path together, or maybe there are anger issues?

I think in a relationship if both parties are not abusive and do care for each other/love eachother etc, I do believe people can work things out.

However, you only get one life and I would not want to spend it married to a man I was not in love with and not happy with.

There are cheaper places in the UK to live than London and maybe in a cheaper place you could afford some more of the things like make life better. I think it's worth working out if you can stay together and be happy before you split up, but only if you are safe and he is not abusive.

Bloomed but what would be the point? That's a real question.

We could maybe get a rent VERY SLIGHTLY cheaper, he would have a more expensive and stressful commute, I would be a foreign person in a smaller place, I would be deprived of all the London places I take the DC to on the weekend and that we all enjoy (while DH stays at home because he can't be bothered and I can't stand him), it would be even harder for me to get a job.

It could make sense if we could get the DC in a better school, but money wise I don't think we would be better off. I have friends who have done that, but they moved to be closer to relatives.

Edinburgh or Birmingham, well you would need to work out relative costs for either place and you would need to work out commute costs and then one or both of you would need to secure a job. So this is not going to be a quick fix.

I am curious to know what kind of industry only work in three cities in the UK. What about all the other parts of the UK, all the other big cities?

One of my relatives stayed off work with her kids because it was not worth working part-time and paying child care. Unfortunately when she went back to work they were thousands of pounds in debt. They have not yet got back on their feet and her oldest child is now out of education. So really having kids can be quite an expensive business in this country.

But there are part time jobs out there. They are not brilliantly paid and it is true that being in the role when you go off on maternity leave certainly does help. But I got a small part time job of a couple of days a week and built up to three days a week. My company let me work my days during school hours so I can be there to drop the kids off and pick them up. Some companies are better than others. Working in a school/adult higher education etc is good because you get longer holidays but you don't get paid as much.

I think you can probably put your masters and language skills to good use, translation, interpretation, proof reading etc.

Could you set up on your own or find a company you could do language work for?

Sometimes it takes things like a marriage nearly breaking down to really shake you up and see if can change things.

Good luck.

OP, "I can't stand him" I think you need to work out now whether you want to stay and fight for your marriage and see if you can make it work or cut your losses and go it alone. Then put your energies into whichever route you would like to go down.

If it is the latter (cut your losses) why not give him warning (if it is safe to do so) that you are coming to the end of your tether and he needs to step up and work on your relationship. Working on your relationship would be whatever would make you be able to stand him (I'd say) as a start.

I do not know what rents are like in Edinburgh, Birmingham and London (I don't live in those places). But I think there may be a big difference between those places.

If you were going to try to work in a new line of work, maybe education, then I would say maybe staying put in London is best. It has good communication links and lots of places of education.

My friend is not British and does translation work in her native language. I am pretty sure she works from home so that is easier for her (although her kids are now at school).

Anyway, good luck.

Italian well, I think we both crossed the "abusive" line already. There have been physical aggression, from both sides. That's why I think we should - ideally - spend some time apart. But then... money.

We had some counselling already, more than once. I think if we had time, and energy, and weren't that "on edge" we could maybe have some patience left to deal with stuff, and some patience with each other. But for 7 years we have just been angry and frustrated. (I had PND and a VERY difficult first couple of years, and just had to go through them. So I have no sympathy when he says he's tired and wants to play computer games for hours and hours "to unwind", instead of doing his share of housework)

Sometimes I think I'm the abusive one, and that I couldn't have a healthy relationship even if I had the chance (it's not the case, though. DH is definitely being lazy and disrespectful). I've been thinking a lot about my mum and toxicity and so on. Not very comforting.

Thanks a lot for taking the time to post. Teaching at universities would be great, I'll have a look at that.

The thing about moving countries is that I would have to do the whole thing (I explained in a previous post - I'm always the one who organises the big changes). And I can't decide by myself to go, for example, to another country, if he's not fully on board. What if he hates his new job and then decides to blame me? This is a decision that BOTH have to make. (not to mention that I can't get him a job - HE has to do that).

it appears the financial strain is at the root of the problem. if you have tried counselling to no avail you may have to split and hope that some day in the far future you can be friends again.
seems to me you need to plan on going solo. have you looked into trading your masters in journalism for something more practical.

thewallsstareatme I'm sorry to hear that the relationship has been abusive on both sides. But I do feel it is at least honest that you can recognize it.

Do you think your husband may be depressed? It certainly sounds like it. Could he see his GP?

out2pasture what do you mean by "trading my masters by something more practical?" (real clueless question)

(I wish I did something more practical 20 years ago! Stupid career choice)

italian he is probably depressed!

He's been to the gp. He's had ADs for a while - no result. He's had therapy (because I insisted). No change either. (I think maybe he could benefit from therapy with the right therapist. But - guess what? - you need MONEY to able to go private and try different therapists until you find the right one for you. Everything boils down to money, it's so frustrating. At every row things get worse, but if we split we will have even LESS money. It's the catch 22 from hell.)

I've tried everything I could. Tried to help him exercise, tried to cook special meals, etc. I told him how I feel, I've told him many times the only reason I don't leave is because I can't afford it! He says I just "give up" when things are tough.

But I think 7 years of "tough" is a lot of time.

where I live university courses (individual ones) are transferable so you could use your journo degree and go into another career path without 4 years of study as some courses would be directly transferable others would count towards your electives etc. not that teaching is easy but where i'm from (Canada) you could become certified as a teacher in 18 months. if it was a science degree you held same thing for nursing (rapid access with a science degree) etc. some fields require you to have a bachelors for entry (speech and language pathology).

I'd look at moving. Birmingham for example, you'd be able to find much cheaper accommodation with a small commute and things like childcare would be cheaper. Look at getting jobs in another industry - export etc or trying different things by temping.

Your current life and stresses is ruining your relationship. A new more relaxed life will probably do wonders for both your state of mind.

I am pretty sure you can get a PGCE in a year, and you may even get help with it (paying for it). But teaching children is hard work and not for everyone, it's quite a vocation (in my mind).

Teaching adults is a different situation (maybe still a vocation but different, you need different skills IMHO).

OP can you get your DH back to the GP for more counselling, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, maybe?

Anyway, must go to bed now. I hope things will take a turn for the better. Sometimes a small change for the better can hit things into a virtuous circle.

www.psychologytoday.com/blog/what-matters-most/201311/cultivate-virtuous-circle

lifehacker.com/turn-your-vicious-cycles-into-a-virtuous-cycles-for-1570406732

So for example, your dh works, and presumably he finds the work hard (needs time to wind down). Yes, you are working too, sometimes (because you said journalism is not paying much so presumably you are not working much), and do house work and look after kids, and so I am not saying he is a great man, you both work.

I am just saying that maybe he has depression, and he works in a job he finds hard and he is doing it because you have to survive. But there are men out there, and women, who might not be able to hold down a job, with depression, in (what you might call) a somewhat hostile marriage.

Can you find a way to express any kind of happiness or gratitude or suggest things he could do to wind down - nice bath etc - that don't require hours of endless video games.

Video games tend to be addictive and also sap energy.

Is there a way to go for a short walk or to the park after work or to meet him on his route home.

I really do not want to waste lots of time suggesting things if you really cannot stand him but I think only you know what you really want to get to in the end.

PS when you do your assessment or whatever about moving, take into consideration the situation regarding friends/contacts.

Where I live there are no family locally but lots of friends I met through work/NCT/Toddler groups/kids school etc. When I need a sitter we don't pay, I swap with a friend, I sit for her/his kids, and they do it for me. I can only do this because I've known them and trusted them and they know me.

So even if you do not have a lot of friends locally, a few friends are of value and should be 'weighed' up in the pros and cons of moving.

If you have lived in your area quite a long time and not made any friends or contacts then to me that would be a mark against your current area.

Make sure you include free amenities like parks and open spaces. So, just for the sake or argument if you loved out door swimming, which I think is quite cheap (I like it but the only open air pool near us is always very crowded!) then you would count a local open air pool as very valuable.

www.theguardian.com/travel/2015/jul/24/outdoor-swimming-tour-london-top-10-lidos-and-ponds

So when you decide to stay or go, in terms of location, you can really feel that if you stay, you are doing so for the best reasons and have recognised that where you are is the right place. So then you need to work out if the job situation changes, might the relationship change?

Is he a good dad?

I must go to bed, all the best, bless you.

What kind of salary does your dh have? We did the sums after we had dc as my dh has a london only job, and we concluded that it wasn't worth staying in London unless dh was earning above 100k. I know that figure sounds ludicrous to many, but it means you can pay your rent and bills comfortably, also save money towards buying a house in future when you do leave (reduces my anxiety), and do some things to help you relax - days out, babysitters, taxis if dh leaves work late, we both had private therapy for a while, cleaner (we argued lots before we got her) etc. I think without those things there would be much more anxiety in our household and it wouldn't be worth that for the extra money. London can be great, but I think it's really draining if you are stretched financially and emotionally. After commuting home my dh disappears inside the internet to zone out, although he does emerge again.

Otherwise it seemed much better to move to another city, even though dh would need to retrain and earn much less, our cost of living would go down so much. I have friends who moved to Edinburgh and they have a much better quality of life there as it is much cheaper.

It sounds like sadly you will have to drive any change, whether pushing forward for a move together, or arranging to leave yourself. I hear that you are really frustrated that your dh won't make any arrangements himself, but either choice you will need to be the instigator, so if you do decide to go together I would try to not let that frustration stop you.

If you decided to move together would your dh need to have a job first or do you have savings to manage in a new place? Would he job hunt and go to interviews? Could this practically happen when he is so demotivated?

If you do split I think you can claim various benefits and housing benefit as a lone parent. Would he agree to move out? Would your landlord accept housing benefit to top up your rent, then dh could rent another cheaper place....? It sounds tough. I'd be tempted to move somewhere else first, work at your marriage together, and if you can't make it work the new city would be cheaper to run two households with the benefits available.

However you mention physical abuse both ways -what do you mean? - do you feel at risk, or that your DC are at risk?

It sounds like your childhood was unhappy. Have you explored nhs therapy options? I think the institute of psychiatry runs low cost therapy groups if that could help? Local charities? The Stately Homes thread here can also help and has a great reading list of books about dysfunctional families.

Also btw journalism wasn't a daft choice - you didn't know what would happen to the journalism industry- I thought of doing journalism as a teen and everyone thought it was a sensible career choice (Inc school careers advisor) - you really criticise yourself a lot for that decision :(

It sounds like you going back to work would fix at least some of your problems - and maybe if money wasn't such a big issue, you'd feel able to tackle the others.

So. With three languages, have you thought about the tourism industry (big in London - and Edinburgh)? There are so many foreign visitors, languages must be an advantage.

With a background in journalism, you'd certainly be able to do proofreading or editing - and the languages would give you an extra advantage.

When your DC are both at school, would even a few hours a day waitressing or stacking shelves help?

Apologies if I missed this, but what does your husband do?

Edinburgh is cheaper than London but rents are still high. Birmingham or Glasgow would be cheaper still. Could your DH get work in any big city? That gives you a lot of scope.

Good luck!

OP why don't you move somewhere cheaper and let your DH commute to his work. It's crazy to think the only option is to move 400 miles away. Loads of people live outside London and commute in by train because they can't afford to live in London. Even with the cost of train fare it's still much cheaper and better quality of life.

I am sorry things are going so badly. As a small chink of hope, I was a freelance journalist for a number of years when the children were small. I now work full time in university administration and earn c£48k outside London (would be more in London). And I don't speak any languages so you have more skills than me. So don't abandon all hope for your career, it is possible to get a job to support you longer term.

It sounds like you have both fallen into a pit and need one of you to make some sort of a change to kick start at least one of you begining to crawl back up. Good luck.

With decent journalism experience you could look at copywriting, editor, or press officer jobs in the external relations departments of big organisations - particularly universities often need people like this but lots of other organisations too. Most of the people I know in those sorts of jobs also do their own freelance writing on the side too. Apply for those kinds of jobs in areas that would be commutable for DH to reasonable employment opportunities. Edinburgh could be a good option because you'd have much less of a nightmare with your DC1 school place north of the border where everyone just goes to their catchment school rather than eg Birmingham where you could be allocated a place somewhere difficult to get to. Central areas of Edinburgh are also expensive but there are commutable cheaper areas

Focus on getting you and the kids relocated. DH stays in London initially and the separation will help you both get some head space and hopefully start missing each other a bit and appreciating what you originally loved about each other. When you are both ready he can job hunt for appropriate jobs near to your new home.

3 languages is a huge skill.

Are these languages with a large population in London?

Have you thought about translation services? Both the NHS and the ministry of justice employ translators. Do you have a hospital / court near you?

Or private Language teaching?

Goodness, it sounds like you're limiting yourselves without really looking into alternatives.

In the south for example, a 3 bed house can rent for £800 a month, with direct trains to London.

You do need to change your thinking.

You obviously have good writing skills and together with languages there are lots and lots of places that would love to employ you.

There are cheaper places in London/with a good commute to London. Or there are other places to live and work.

I would also push ahead with residency/citizenship if you don't want to go home.

BTW the rest of the UK is not racist. In my town which is not one of the most diverse, one local secondary school has at least 50 languages spoken at home. And there are big communities of some groups. Outside London might not be as bad as you think.