Our relationship with adult dd....

[User1958]

I'm totally at my wits end with our 20 year old dd and unsure how to handle the situation.
I'll try not to drip feed and keep the story as fact based as possible.
I have a very troubled relationship with my dd. I have always found her a difficult child to parent. She is very combative and complex but we always had a good relationship until she hit her teens. Things just went from bad to worse.
It culminated in dd going to stay with her grandparents on her 17tg birthday and completing her a levels while with them.
We haven't really been able to repair things since then and progress is made but never retained and we're back to square one.
For example two days ago I missed a call from dd while I was at the gym and it resulted in her blowing up the phone - 84 missed calls and at least 20 messages - calling me a cunt and every other profanity you can think of.
Dd said she was justified because I've ruined her life and that she wants to 'put me on probation as a parent' and I have to apologize for everything I've done to her in the past and prove my worth to her. She won't tell me what I have to do- it has to be independent thought on my part but she will be waiting.
If I don't do these things dd wants to go nc. Which to be honest isn't far off where we've been but would hopefully be minus the abuse.
Dd has history of false declarations to friends about being neglected and unloved at home, it's something she's done quite a lot I think for attention & sympathy. it's caused us some problems in the past and we'd been ostracized from some members of our local community.
I'm not sure how to proceed and if I'm honest I'm a bit scared of her.
Wwyd. Any advice gratefully received.

Physically leaving the cafe got me nowhere. Endless 5 minute meetings, for years. Over and over. She's nothing if not stubborn, my girl.

It's good to see her dear bod though.

Bless Springy.

Sometimes helpful suggestions aren't all that helpful, I know. I hope you've found some peace.

I have some empathy with this, as my little brother was the same, and ended up going to live with our grandparents and then into a home from about 15.

The bottom line is he is a result of very very bad parenting when he was young, I am three years older so came out better as the mistreatment and neglect started at this stage, but he was effectively neglected as a baby on. As their dramas, their love lives, their whatever took precedent and cruelty slipped in. Details of which i won't go into. I'm not saying this is what happened when your daughter was young, simply that's what happened to him.

I always remember my grandfather saying to my father "he is what you made him" and I believe that absolutely and utterly to be true. My father didn't accept it.

However, my brother is now 43 and he will not change, he's violent, abusive, been to jail for drug dealing and is I think an alcoholic. No one is in contact with him. My father tried and tried, but there came a time when it was too much, too violent, too far. As much as I thoroughly blame my father and myself am also no contact with my dad, I do understand why he had to end their relationship.he was scared of his own son.

There comes a time as adults we have to take responsibility for ourselves, and stop blaming our parents. If we are unable to functional normally, even if it's because our parents fucked us up, then sadly in some instances you have to walk away as you'll never win the war.

If she cannot stop the abuse, I think uou need to end the relationship and both accept your share of the blame.

Sorry for being absent from the thread. Thank you again to everyone posting advice it is all positive & negative very helpful.
It really is a life line to be able to talk to someone about this and thank you to everyone for sharing personal experiences.

imp & Astro
Autism or pathological demand avoidance? Never heard of it but dd has and does exhibit all of the behaviors you've indicated. I will look into it further.
While I know right now I can't get dd to the drs - perhaps if I understand the behaviour some more I can deal with it better.

*springydaffs.
Much love & kindness to you

ethelb-
Thank you for your comments. I hope things get better for you soon.

*cory.

Thank you

My dh has just returned from s business trip and is going to read this thread, then we're going to take some time and do some reading and thinking to try and come up with a way forward.
You've all been a great support to me this week when I've had no one around

bluntness

I have considered this possibility. My dd's environment when she was an infant was drastically different to what she grew up with.
I was a young parent and basically on my own with no family or support.
I did know about the early years attachment etc - I made sensible choices- breastfed etc, lots of toddler groups. But really my surroundings weren't great lots of discord within my family, arguments between my siblings and my mother just drama really. There was no exposure to drug & alchohl abuse or inappropriate situations but I was poor, with a lower working class environment iyswim.
So I have considered this, but that in itself isn't enough is it? I mean that would mean a significant portion of the population would feel like dd?
When she was 2 I met my dh and we moved away together to a nicer neighborhood, better schools and a much more pleasant environment.

Anyone who calls you repeatedly and leaves abusive voicemails because you did not answer the first time, has obvious mental health issues.

OP you accept that you may have struggled to establish boundaries which may have contributed somewhat but is not the only cause. Lots of parents struggle with boundaries and they don't all end up with children acting like this.

You say she went to live with grandparents to do her a levels - what is their view of her? Was she a model child when she lived there? I suspect she was difficult with them as well, which suggests entail health issues, given she chose to enrol in school in their area, so choosing to live with them.

Essentially it is time for boundaries. If she is refusing counselling/mental health involvement then you cannot force her.

End all conversations when they get abusive and try to keep them light.

Do not apologise for something you are sure you have not done, or accept responsibility for her entire life because she demands it.

Baby steps, but there is no other way.

If she has mental health issues then this is unlikely to work, but you cannot be a punching bag for her.

If your DH has been in her life since she was two, and treats her like a daughter, and she had a relationship with her dad, then I highly doubt that her parents splitting up has caused this either, lots of people are children of divorced parents and are not being abusive.

OP, can I just say how very impressed I am by your dignified tone on this thread, and by how you seem to be taking everything on board and be prepared to consider all angles.

As the mother of a child with some MH issues, I know very well how it feels when the automatic assumption by people who don't know you is that everything about your child must have been caused by some neglect or cruelty on your part, I know how much that hurts, I know how hard it is to stay calm under those circumstances and focus on the essentials- and you are doing it so well.

All I can say to reassure you is that my son did hard drugs, drink, attempted suicide, anorexia and gave me a breakdown in his 20's but is now 35 and we are the best of friends and he is living a normal productive life with a girlfriends, pets, jobs and a mortgage.
Some people in their teens and 20's just do this.
My cousin did as well and is now completely normal, and has exceeded expectations at work.
Just be totally consistent, never rise to the bait and don't reward bad behaviour. if she won't talk to you just send cards now and again.
She should eventually come round but you may have to suffer it for a few more years yet.
I was at the end of my tether once too.

op

Please specifically look at autism in girls. Channel 4 news had a good piece in the news last week. Tony attwood and Tania Marshall are good reference points.

Think about how she was like growing up when reading these.

Lot of girls can be misdiagnosed with Bpd as adults, but ASD underlies the behaviours.

My dd is 8 and had ASD. PDA has yet to enter into the diagnostic manuals, so generally won't be diagnosed, but I think it will in the near future.

People with abusive personalities can often appear to have mental health problems as their behaviour is so outrageous. Yet they know full well what they are doing. They don't abuse just anyone, they abuse you in secret while being charming to everyone else. And they lie about the abuse because they know what they are doing is wrong. If this is what is happening then it's more likely the person doing it is abusive rather than unwell.

My family feel that my relative's abusive behaviour is caused by mh problems , I suspect because she is female. She does fit the profile of the abuser in Lundy Bancrofts book Why does he do that. If you haven't read it I recommend doing so.

I would be careful approaching this from a mh perspective. Many many people have serious mh problems and generally manage that without abusing people. Abuse is not caused by mh problems but by a person's beliefs and sense of entitlement.

Besides, you cannot do anything about her mh ( assuming that's the problem) but you can do something about her abusive behaviour. In your position I would state your own terms for continuing in the relationship, no more abuse, lying or vandalizing. She can accept those conditions or not.

I COULD see my DD going this way if I hadnt known she had PDA. Alot of the stuff is similar, especially if she isnt getting her demands met, but alot of the drama around other people. There is always drama.

Luckily we had help and although there is still drama, its not as bad at all. She isnt violent, but she hurts herself or shuts down.

But PDA undiagnosed / untreated can cause enough trama to give its own problems

Hi OP, this is clearly a very sad situation for all concerned. I have to say though that my reaction is that is time for you both to go NC.

Your DD is an adult now. She may not be a happy adult, but that is her choice. She has a grudge against you which may or may not be justified, but frankly you are not going to fix it now. You can love her without having to remain entangled in the non-productive unpleasantness of your current relationship. Time for you both to acknowledge that you wish your relationship had been different and move on I would have thought.

It astounds me how people think it's straightforward to cut off your own child. It so isn't. The grief is immense. Absolutely vast.

What is PDA?

PDA - pathological demand avoidance, a subset of the autistic spectrum. It used to be thought that PDA developed into a personality disorder as an adult, now they believe that although the two may look quite similar, you need to get a bigger understanding to recognise the difference, and what is driving it. Personality disorders in adults generally come from disorders of trauma/abuse/parenting/environment in childhood, PDA is a neurodevelopmental issue. However the undiagnosed extremely high functioning linguishically and socially manipulative aspects of PDA may mask the autism, which could be traumatising in itself, ending up with an ASD/personality co-morbidity. Very bloody tricky to disentangle.
Our behavioural ASD psychologist said that the patient needs the insight and incentive to change in order to be able to help themselves, but it doesnt sound as if OPs daughter is that interested in engaging therapeutically.
Also, whether a PD or ASD, she is obviously getting something from her continued behaviour, which is preventing her from changing it. I would guess it is somehow comforting to lay all the blame at the parents, because it absolves her of having to take any responsibility herself. The PD ego is surprisingly fragile - attack often being the best form of defence - despite the abuse, control and aggression they are lacking greatly in self-confidence, and struggle to control everything so the facade doesnt crack. Sad, but still unbearable.

Just to say very sorry re the sad situation OP. It is also very hard to get a grasp of whats really gone on in some posts on the internet. A couple of points from my own experience.

My mother has behaved very poorly to me (and many others)from an early age and I now believe her to have narcissistic personality disorder. I am no contact because I will no longer accept her dreadful poisonous behaviour. But my mother in turn was raised by a loving single parent - with a good level of loving stable family support. So no one understands why she is the way she is. What Im trying to say is the people on here who say that OP has caused her daughters issues may not be correct because I know my grandmother did not cause my mothers issues.

It is very hard to cut off mother daughter contact but no one deserves to be abused by either their mother or their daughter . So I think you should start to be very strong OP and not allow your daughter to abuse you any further.

And lastly I have a reasonable knowledge of autism and it is not a typical feature of autism to be abusive and lack responsibility. Of course individuals may behave in this way. From my knowledge of autism and narcissistic personality disorder I would be more likely to think her issues lie around narcissism . Im not sure though if PDA and narcissism are linked.

And lastly again if you dont have a family member with a personality disorder you can never understand the poisonousness and dreadfulness and havoc they can create. They can also do nice things and behave well if it suits them but if things arent going their way and they arent getting exactly what they want they can do awful things even to small children. My mother can do shocking things and has threatened to do so to me in the last year even though I'm not in contact. So again although I cant understand what has actually happened in OP's life and her daughters life please dont jump to the conclusion that shes to blame for her daughters behaviour - because I know from my life that that isnt necessarily so at all.

Ach the unbearable pain of a disordered child

If she enrolled herself at a local school is there any chance she hated her private school?

I say this as my parents sent me to private school and i hated it. It was so cliaue and snibby and the pressure to succeeed was horrendous. I would go so far to say it broke me and certainly contributed to mental health issues . . I was bullied... is she being bullied?

I know your heart is in the right place in the same way that my parents heart were in the right place when they spent all tgat money on my education but it wasnt for me. The rich dont let anyone in.

Im still bitter towards my parents for kreping me there ( although more understanding nowadays)

Investigate what went on at school.

Sorry for slight tangent/ derailment... hope u can see the relevance.

I was horrendous to mg parents too.

Typos agggrrr... snobby and cliquey i mean.

Perhaps the enrolement at an alternative school was a cry for help rather than a fuck you.

But alsi as she us an adult id say apologuse but dint sing to her tune. You csll the shots... say thst you wont talk to hef unless she stoos abusung you. Otherwise she has you over a barrel. Not easy i know!

It sounds a bit like Borderline personality disorder, I think it's called 'emotionally unstable disorder' now.

Although it could be servers or pathological demand avoidance.

I know there's a lot of overlap between borderline and female autism spectrum disorders. And often girls/women with autistic spectrum disorders are misdiagnosed with Borderline or bipolar disorder.

Not 'servers' , that should read aspergers.

Feckin autocorrect!

It's certainly a feature of my dds ASD to be abusive

I'd say that would apply for many who who fight instead of flight, and particularly for children unable to cope.

Clearly no one can diagnose over the internet, but I hope we've all helped to help you 'flesh' this out Op. my dd is only 8, but she can be abusive, to herself and others, and very very hurtful. Since she was 3, she has always been in lash out mode. She would prefer to harm herself or something precious to her if she doesn't feel in control.

Op you really need to put your focus on yourself and develop a strategy for protecting yourself from abuse. Could it be this, could it be that is wasted energy. Would you be willing to tolerate the abuse if she actually had asd or pda? What diagnosis could possibly make it ok?