Our relationship with adult dd....

[User1958]

I'm totally at my wits end with our 20 year old dd and unsure how to handle the situation.
I'll try not to drip feed and keep the story as fact based as possible.
I have a very troubled relationship with my dd. I have always found her a difficult child to parent. She is very combative and complex but we always had a good relationship until she hit her teens. Things just went from bad to worse.
It culminated in dd going to stay with her grandparents on her 17tg birthday and completing her a levels while with them.
We haven't really been able to repair things since then and progress is made but never retained and we're back to square one.
For example two days ago I missed a call from dd while I was at the gym and it resulted in her blowing up the phone - 84 missed calls and at least 20 messages - calling me a cunt and every other profanity you can think of.
Dd said she was justified because I've ruined her life and that she wants to 'put me on probation as a parent' and I have to apologize for everything I've done to her in the past and prove my worth to her. She won't tell me what I have to do- it has to be independent thought on my part but she will be waiting.
If I don't do these things dd wants to go nc. Which to be honest isn't far off where we've been but would hopefully be minus the abuse.
Dd has history of false declarations to friends about being neglected and unloved at home, it's something she's done quite a lot I think for attention & sympathy. it's caused us some problems in the past and we'd been ostracized from some members of our local community.
I'm not sure how to proceed and if I'm honest I'm a bit scared of her.
Wwyd. Any advice gratefully received.

User1478
I agree with your statement-
Of course as her parents we are definitely culpable. The way she feels has to be partly our responsibility so we obviously didn't meet her needs.
As said by others- it's the lack of empathy that is the real problem. She just doesn't have any empathy for us. And while saying she wants to have a relationship with us continues to use abusive language at every opportunity. I've tried talking to her and asking her to think about how we can possibly have a better relationship if that continues but she refuses to accept that her behaviour is unacceptable.

In the mood-

What you have said has really struck a cord with me. The fact is I'm frightened of her. I'm truly dreading telling her that I won't meet her demands
I feel that this has been a great weapon for her since early childhood - dd does something - I try to discipline her - she escalates things I back down to appease her.
I suppose I've just always wanted to have any kind of relationship with her that she would allow.

Dear OP. I am very sorry to hear about your situation which sounds awful. I'm not in a position to advise as I'm sitting in a house with two teenagers (of divorced parents) where we have give and take dialogue about issues - sure we have arguments, but the kind of arguments where both sides can say sorry once the dust has settled, and express love and kindness - not seek to blame, hit out and hurt. It does sound like things have got to a very serious point where just listening and acknowledging her feelings isn't going to be enough. Her feelings and words are so violent and extreme that its hard to see what acknowledgements and efforts to understand her, placate and reassure her of your loving intent would ever be enough. It sounds like it would be impossible to have a meaningful and calm dialogue with her and to explore means to re-build the foundations of your relationship with maturity and respect. Like trying to discuss what potatoes they want for dinner with someone holding a molotov cocktail!

I wonder if you could go for family counselling/mediation with your DH, you and your daughter and maybe even her father. This would create the dynamics where its not just you being attacked, she would be heard, by all the significant parental players, but it wouldn't be unbalanced with everything she says being an unchallenged attack on you - and countered with others' views on her childhood and upbringing.
That might be optimistic and would need to be with well qualified psychologists/therapists who can mediate and allow her to be heard but appropriately challenged. Perhaps you could seek a referral from your GP?However, given her emotional state it sounds that she would not be able to submit to that - because it might also require her to engage, listen and understand, which sounds like she wouldn't be able to do.

Another idea is that you might offer for her to have some counselling on her own. This would give her the full on attention she craves, and if in expert hands a chance to move beyond the 'you ruined my life' script to shaping the relationships and life she wants to have as an adult. I say that with caution, because it would need to be a very experienced and well qualified psychologist who might be able to filter or gently challenge her assertions. It might give her the attention she craves, and to be listened to, but she might not take kindly to objective counselling that did challenge her thinking and behaviour.

Alternatively, if she wouldn't agree to any of that (which I suspect is the case) maybe you should consider some counselling for you, to help you think through your own responses, how to cope with the situation and protect your own MH.

Much care and sympathy to you.

Have you considered suggesting that you go for family counselling so that you can all discuss the issues in a more neutral setting?

Thanks again everyone for your replies and advice it's helping me to get a handle on things.
I wish dd would attend counseling. unfortunately she won't.
The biggest issue is her unwillingness or inability to listen. If a conversation isn't going the way she wants she either escalates things or outright lies in order to gain control iyswim.
Dd consistently states opinion as fact and quite frankly sometimes when she's talking I think she might actually believe what she's saying to be true even if it is blatantly untrue.
She spent lots of time with her head in books as a teen- classics etc and at times I felt like she'd really detached from 'real life' and found a connection with characters in her books and almost rewrote her history to be like them.

Was she abused by someone else? It would be very unusual for someone to be so disordered if something significant had not happened. Could she be blaming you for this given you have/had the job of protecting other vulnerable children through your paid work?

Was she brought up in an environment where it was encouraged to talk about feelings?

Does she build relationships appropriately with other people? What kind of child was she in her earlier years? Has she ever shown empathy? There's probably lots of clues along the way.

Have a look at the website 'Out of the fog' on the parenting part of the forum. I think you'd find it useful. And what Kr1stina said

I'd go no contact tbh. In my own experiences, a young person showing these behaviour/ personality traits will become more manipulative, dangerous and chaotic as their personality disorder fully emerges in young adulthood. It's highly unlikely you'll get her to psychiatric evaluation unless she can see something in it for her.

I do wish you all the best. But you have to think of your own mental health too.

I don't believe dd has been abused but how sure can any of us be about that. The thought horrifies me but I believe if she had she would tell us.
We had quite an open household tbh - I would often give her work resources like the power wheel etc and she had a lot of knowledge but tbh I think that did more harm than good. She kind of took on the role of policing me- it's hard to explain what I mean but it's like she used all the info I gave her to empower her to control me.

Catherine
I never really had concerns initially... but in reflection they were present.
Dd's friendships always burned out and her peer always committed some unspeakable crime. There was lots of conflicts with friendships and I think dd was at the center of lots of group dramas. Once a friendship is over though it's over dd will find another friend quite quickly and the cycle repeats.

Thanks for the suggestion notare - I'll have a look at it.

The fact is I'm frightened of her. I'm truly dreading telling her that I won't meet her demands

I really understand this feeling. The fear of what my relative might do next kept me in it for a long time. It probably sounds extreme but I was scared for my personal safety and that of other family members. I think this feeling is a recognition of just how dangerous they are.

You are right to be scared, she's clearly a very angry and controlling person who likes to take revenge on those who cross her.

Op, have you ever considered autism or pathalogical demand avoidance? It presents very differently in girls. It might be worth a google to see if anything resonates.

Imip - I was going to say the same

Avoiding responsibility
Full on friendships
Obsession with 'stuff' could be a toy a new skill etc
No empathy
The planning how things should be
Jealously of siblings
Outbursts
Meltdowns

Does she 'burnout' and sleep for hours (once a month ish)

Does she want you to be a different parent ( I think like the American kids shows - all nice chat etc)

Always aimed at you? Even if the fall out started with someone else?

Highly critical but can't take criticism?

Look it up

And - just to add - doesn't understand sayings - difficult sense of humour? Takes things literally?

You won't 'win' because she will always want to win - mostly by moving the goal posts and related live with stuff or effort - particularly if a sibling has received 'more'

Wants to be the favorite and it's important to them

Reading with dread interest. Everything you say describes my daughter.

All very well to say 'go nc' but this is my child. At what point do you cut off your own child?? I have so far found it impossible and I am a craven mess. I protect myself to the best of my ability, or as much as possible, but so far I have been unable to cut her off entirely. Frankly, I don't know how you do it. She has done me extraordinary harm.

There is a guy who addresses difficulties like this. He specifically focuses on estrangement but knows his stuff. He isn't cheap 1:1 but worth his weight imo. Dr Joshua Coleman. You need specific strategies when negotiating personalities like this.

Her drug use is disastrous for someone with these disorders. Whatever they are...

My brother was like this. We had a lovely childhood. He had emotionally unstable (or borderline) personality disorder. He gave my parents 15 years of hell, before eventually killing himself leaving them feeling it was all their fault. It is not a mental illness that can be sorted with tablets, it is learned behaviour. You have to establish really clear boundaries, or it will just get worse and worse. She needs to take some personal responsibility for her actions, and you backing down because you are scared of her will not force her to do this. She needs some therapy, problem is people with eupd rarely engage in a helpful way. Dialectical behavioural therapy can be useful. Google the symptoms of eupd/bpd and I guarantee it will ring some bells...

OP I know I am projecting as at 30 I still haven't got over my parents rejection of me as a teen but there are a dew things that jump out at me.

1. You claim she is very selfish and entitled

This is very much how my parents and family as a whole describe me. When I just request they don't treat me like shit.

1. You claim she makes things up that you have said or done to her

If I ever try and talk to my parents about why I am still unhappy about things that happened in the past they laugh uproariously about my 'false memory syndrome'. It is so much the accepted narrative I can't have a simple conversation with my siblings without being fobbed off because of my 'false memory syndrome'.
Btw they are rewriting history not me, and it is called gaslighting.

1. The general resentment

So you paid for her private education. So the fuck what? The fact you have mentioned it at least 3 times in this thread goes to show just how much you resent her for this. She knows.

It isn't her fault you resent her. That is your choice.

1. The idea she left home at 17 to spite you

No she didn't. She left because she knew she wasn't wanted and had an alternative.

Its odd how little you are reflecting on your role in this.

Sorry - but my DD would

Never be grateful - I could give her the stars and she'd demand the moon - no idea of the sacrifices made to give her what she demands wants

The making things up - I could say 'don't be daft - pass the salt' and she would tell everyone I'd called her a ducking idiot - takes it to heart and literally

I treat her the same - if not 'fairer' then her siblings - for example I couldn't play a game with her for an hours and 10 mins with DS - she would insist that it wasn't fair and DS was getting more attention - clearly not true

She wants what she wants when she want show she wants

Today's strop was because I didn't dish up tea - due to peeing - and therefore I was crap and not looking after her - you can't make this crap up!

She doesn't see things the way others do ....

1. Oh yeah, and I don't have any empathy

There was one birthday meal where my mum and sister shouted at me that I had no empathy.

As I questioned her diagnosis of a friend as a narcissist with borderline personality disorder. As she tries to diagnose everyone with that.

Including me, when she and other family members are not trying to diagnose me with austism. FFS.

ethelb, do we actually know that the OP has done any of those things, just because your parents did? Somebody is gaslighting- but what evidence do you have that it's the OP rather than her daughter?

If the OP is not lying outright, then the dd's actions involve far more than simply asking not to be treated like shit, and her making up stories involves people outside the family as well as the OP and her dp.

Yes, the OP has mentioned the school fees, but only in the context of accusations that she has done nothing for her dd/was deliberately trying to throw her out (in which case, why would she have paid those expensive school fees to a school she would no longer attend?)

Of course, we can suspect any poster on MN to have made up all her posts, but it would be worth pointing to some better evidence than "in my case, it was my parents who were liars".

I agree with above that you should only agree to meet her on condition that you all go for family counseling. She's an adult. She's deliberately abusing and manipulating you. You've done everything you could and beyond. If she refuses, just say, 'I understand your decision and wish you well.' And move on.

Your daughter sounds like she's hurting and perhaps to her maybe she does feel neglected emotionally, as a parent all you can do is show her love by giving her your time I.e going for a coffee or shopping , giving her the phone call from time to time ,your daughter may be grown up but your never too old for being close with your parents. However I also do think your daughter could benefit with some professional intervention too, such as seeing a Gp as maybe they might offer her counselling , or having a nurse (Cpn) as she sounds like she may suffer with some form of mental health and may need someone who can understand what she's feeling and thinking and know what to do in order to deal with it, and handle it in the right way and perhaps you and your daughter could benefit with family counselling as it sounds like the relationship you and your daughter has,needs healing , but try not to give up on her because that could be more potentially damaging than facing the fire so to speak. I'm 20 and have always had a rocky relationship with my mum yet I still love and care for her because it's better to love than to hate even when it's hard.

Mummy, the OP has said repeatedly that her dd is refusing to attend any counselling and will not see a doctor. Yours are good suggestions, but the OP can hardly force her dd to take them up. You can drag a 2yo to the doctor, but not a 20yo.

I have often been told that I am an excellent parent to my own now 20yo who has some MH issues, and I actually believe I am. But so much of that is down to the fact that she meets me halfway and genuinely wants to find solutions. If she behaved like the OP's dd, my hands would be tied. It takes two to tango.

The OP's dd seems to want a relationship that still gives her the right to scream at the OP and call her all the names under the sun for some minor misdemeanour such as not immediately picking up her phone. This is a situation which is bound to damage the OP's health; it is difficult not to see it as abusive. There is a younger child who is also suffering and exposed to some damaging behaviour.

I absolutely agree with those who say they would find it difficult to give up on their child- don't know how I could do it either- but it is a difficult situation to negotiate. And there is always the risk that one day the younger child will turn round on the OP and blame her not protecting her from all this- and no doubt there will be plenty of MNers to tell her how wrong her mother was then.

OP you have the absolute right to refuse to be treated in this abusive manner by your daughter.

You can keep in friendly contact with her - meet for coffee, etc. But you can make it clear to her that any foul language, aggression, abuse, nastiness, etc will not be tolerated. Carry through physically e.g. by leaving the cafe etc. Soon she will get the message. It might take some years, or it might never happen. But its the only solution really I can see.

Being her emotional punchbag is not helping her. Or you. There is simply nothing to be gained by either person in continuing this.