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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

I think my mother is narcissistic and I don't know how to feel about it.

83 replies

phoenixnix · 05/01/2017 12:09

I've been doing a lot of reading recently and I'm pretty certain that my mother is narcissistic. What she has always said about herself is that she's extremely introverted, anxious, unlucky and a very nice person who has made a lot of sacrifices.

What it's really been like...she acts as if she is superior to EVERYBODY. Whole groups of people are generalised about, for example all teachers are idiots. She is preoccupied with class and looks down on anybody she considers lower class than her, using pretty dreadful terms. She despises anybody upper class too. She dislikes strangers, neighbours, attractive women, people on TV.

She is always right and cannot take any form of disagreement or criticism. Even gentle banter will upset her. As a child/teen I used to stand up to her, but this just got me labelled as a difficult, horrible person. She regularly told me that I was mentally ill and that she thought I was schizophrenic (I'm not). I realise now that I was the classic scapegoat. As an adult I've learnt to deal with her by just tiptoeing around her, agreeing with her, massaging her ego, walking on eggshells. If I were to challenge her on anything she'd start having a panic attack.

She is an absolute victim who believes she has it worse than anybody else, ever. She talks constantly about her health problems (which I'm sure are real but none of which are serious.) Phrases I grew up hearing, thousands of times - "the gods have got it in for me", "somebody has put a curse on me", "I won't make old bones". Things which other people would regard as an inconvenient yet normal part of life, such an appliance breaking, she seemingly can't cope with. She won't look forward to holidays or christmas because she's convinced she'll be ill.

Everything is about her. When I ring her (and it's always that way round, she never rings me) the entire conversation revolves around her health and problems. If I were to ring her tomorrow and tell her I was getting divorced, I know exactly what her reaction would be. She can't cope with this right now. Why is this happening to her.

I realise that I am constantly seeking her approval. When I book holidays, buy furniture, clothes, change my hair - lots of things - I'm hoping that she will approve of my choices. Sometimes she does, sometimes she doesn't. She often turns her nose up at things, such as what I cook. I can only imagine the absolute shitstorm if I did the same. An ironic one recently was about my house. I always make sure it's super clean and tidy when she comes round. She told me disdainfully that it's like a showhome and clearly I have too much time on my hands! I can't win.

Not that she comes round often, I'm usually the one to do the running. She's always too busy or too stressed. A phone call will often start with her huffing that she can't talk for long. There's always this feeling that there's something more important than me. If she's going on holiday in the coming fortnight, or has an appointment in the coming week, she cannot see me at all. It's too stressful for her. If I were to question this (I don't) I would be told that I don't understand.

My dad I think has been the enabler. As a teen, if I stood up to her, he would come and be very nice to me but urge me to go and apologise. He would acknowledge that I might not have done anything wrong, but this was the way it had to be. I think he is scared of her wrath and will do anything to keep the peace.

Perhaps unusually from what I've read, I have a good relationship with my siblings as adults. I don't think I could talk to them about any of this though as I suspect they would just defend her.

So....I just don't know how to feel now. I love my mum and a lot of the time (as long as I'm careful) I like her too. She can be very funny, intelligent and I can have interesting conversations with her. But only if I'm very careful. I feel disloyal for posting all of this. I think the only way forward is to carry on and remember that she can't help the way she is. But I think it's going to be so much harder from now on.

OP posts:
phoenixnix · 05/01/2017 23:26

Reading the link, mine is definitely a vulnerable narcissist.

Can I ask what boundaries you put in place that caused your mothers to become enraged?

I want to protect myself emotionally but I want to do it without rocking the boat. Mainly because I don't want to drag the rest of the family into it.

OP posts:
Umblubblub · 06/01/2017 11:30

Mine is the engulfing type, similar to bird. I'm still learning how to deal with it but I have made my withdrawal subtle and slow to try not to rock the boat with the rest of the family.
I have tried to explain my feelings to my mother (pointless) but have had better luck with my dad, who does understand my point of view but still enables her behaviour.
Constant phoning in the evening was a big problem, she would call after she knew I'd finished the bedtime routine and if I didn't pick up she would just keep calling, sometimes 15-20 times. I've now turned the ringer off on my landline and disabled the answer phone. I keep my mobile on silent, but have a different setting for DH so I know it's him before picking up. I have told her I will ring her when I wish to speak, which is once per week. She kicked off initially but eventually realised there's nothing she could do about it. She lives 150 miles away and doesn't drive, so in that respect I'm free. I think it's hell for my dad though, but he spent years enabling this behaviour, so it's tough luck for him, you reep what you sew.
She came to stay for Christmas. DH and I stood firm about us doing Christmas dinner on our own, as a team. She constantly invades my/our personal space when she stays, coming into our bedroom, trying on my things, using my makeup and rifling through my drawers. We now have locks on the bedroom doors to keep her out.
At regular intervals I told her that i am having time out now for personal space. I would tell her I would be 30 minutes. I would go to my room, lock the door and put on noise cancelling headphones to block out her pounding on the door. I would return in 30 minutes.
Over the 2 weeks she stayed, she tried to corner me on many occasions in a rage about the above. I remained calm, never reacted to anything she said and stonewalled her emotionally, without being rude or angry.
It's a bit like dealing with a toddler. Once I have told her I will do or not do something, I stick to my guns and don't give an inch.
At the end of the holidays, she treated me to a 45 minute tirade of abuse and character assassination about how unwelcome we had made her feel, and that she would never stay with us again, how I was a terrible daughter etc, you know the drill! I replied with 'I'm sorry you feel that way, have a safe journey home.' She was so angry! I don't think she'll chose to go NC, and I am prepared to tolerate her at a distance under my own terms. I guess we'll see how it goes. Good luck with your mother.

PassTheSatsumas · 06/01/2017 12:39

Phoenix - I have an engulfing narc mother too

I think it's important to understand that you may need to rock the boat to get what you want/need.

The 'not wanting to rock the boat' is a symptom of being manipulated to give up what you want in favour of what others want (or the threat is it will kick off... like toddler tantrums)

You should do what is right for YOU - if there is backlash it will die down or you won't mind too much as you will see advantages

My own experience: went lower contact around 5 years ago, some backlash for 1st year-2 and then family accepted that was the way it is. Once a new 'order' in place I was able to have more contact BUT ON MY TERMS- and relationships have goy healthier, more in an adult footing, and I am able to have more affection/appreciate the good parts of my mother as not dealing with negativity and crap she tries to offload on me that is due to her own issues

My boundaries: calling less (1 week or 2 is fine for me), fewer visits, saying no to family events that don't suit me.
More importantly: giving up on wanting approval (therapy helped), and avoiding talking about contentious topics /things that will invite her to criticise me

Hope that helps : it takes time to change dynamics that have built up over a long time (and that your mum is strongly attached to) but it can be done

I am sure some people NEED to go long term NC but in my case a period of lower contact was fine: it gave me time to build up my own self esteem etc without negative attacks and now I can have a relationship that I think is appropriate

Hope that helps!

pklme · 06/01/2017 15:23

My DM needs me to chase her. If I don't phone often enough, or don't know what is going on, it's because I don't care. DF is very ill at the moment, but she cancelled my visit down to see him and when I ring she's 'just on her way out'. I am very concerned about him. When DF rang to cancel me last Wednesday, he said she'd ring me at the weekend. I rang her Sunday morning, but she was 'just on her way out'. So I left it and she sent a brief email today, saying I could visit when I liked.

Usually, she talks to me for an hour nonstop about everyone one and his dog, without ever asking how we are. Now I actually want to know, she is playing silly buggers!

I really worry about DF.

Birdandsparrow · 06/01/2017 21:23

What boundaries did you put in place that caused your mother's to become enraged?

Well, mine (being an engulfing narc) spent most of my life trampling all over my boundaries and making me feel responisble for her, culminating in her following me to another country and then "injuring" herself and making out she was incapable of living alone. So, we ended up (me, DH and DS) living with her. After a couple of years and another DC I started to sort of see patterns in the rows and posted on MN, but still feeling it was me at fault. Everyone told me it was all totally dysfunctional so the next time she engineered a row where I (and DH, she really saw him as competition) were in the wrong again, instead of running around placating her I told her I didn't want to talk about it. Had never done that before. She tried all the tricks in the book (suicide threats, disappearing for days etc) and I didn't back down and we moved out. Saw her regularly for about another 18 months (lived round the corner) and she spent the whole time trying to drag me into dramas she had created, real nonsense.
My brother came to visit during the summer and we went away with him for a few days (bear in mind she was supposedly unable to travel and hated my husband) and she went batshit. completely mental. NC began there and she emigrated. Good fucking riddance. LC is much harder work than NC.

howtheheckdoidealwiththis · 06/01/2017 21:51

Birdandsparrow - I don't think boundaries will work in my case either. I'm sorry you've had such a terrible time, well done for standing up.

It's hard explaining how awful a narcissitic mother can be if you have a wonderful, understanding & reasonable mother and have no proper experience of walking on eggs shells every day ... always in fear of saying the wrong thing...

Birdandsparrow · 06/01/2017 21:55

howtheheck the real headfuck for me, being the chosen child of an engulfing narc mother, was that for many years I would have said that we were really close, but in hindsight that was only while I was single, with no kids and basically lived the life she wanted me to with her at the centre of it. I am not a real person to her, I am part of her and to try to have any kind of independence immeadiately provokes total batshittery, so here we are with NC, it wasn't my intention, but she just went total fucking mental. It's all documented on old Stately Homes threads.

Birdandsparrow · 06/01/2017 22:02

It's hard explaining how awful a narcissitic mother can be if you have a wonderful, understanding & reasonable mother and have no proper experience of walking on eggs shells every day ... always in fear of saying the wrong thing...
^^ yes yes. Mine slagged me off to the people who bought her house when she emigrated and they fell for her poor little old woman wronged by her evil grandchild snatching DD and actually still ignore me when I see them in the village. While living with her I became a bit codependent, I became obsessed with endlessly trying to keep her happy, to an obsessive degree. There would be these "rows" every couple of months, I saw rows but really it would be that she'd get in a strop about something, nothing, something stupid and whip it up into this massive 3 day extravaganza with her "taking to her bed with her nerves, the upset of it all" and me being the terrible/lazy/thoughtless/insert awful thing here daughter. I'd always end up apologising for whatever imagined slight/fault and feeling that I must be an awful person really and had to do better. I never saw the "rows" coming, always felt blindsided by them.
The minute I refused to do any of that and said, "I don't want to talk about it" she went batshit.

pklme · 07/01/2017 07:10

Mine would leave for a few days if she got upset about something. When I was little she took me with her. When I was turning 21 I resat a year at uni and lived in a house for free in return for babysitting and ironing. She didn't like the living arrangement, for some reason, and when I wouldn't change it she went away for a few days. Over my 21st birthday, when we had a restaurant booked for a family meal and a barbecue for extended family. To who we had to cover for why she wasn't there.

MusicIsMedicine · 07/01/2017 18:12

Mine is the same, makes everything about her and nothing I do is ever good enough. Reducing contact was needed for the sake of my sanity. Beware, put boundaries in now as they get far worse when you have your first child!

Finlaggan · 07/01/2017 18:52

I have just realised this week that both my parents are the same, I'm not sure which of them is the worst, I think my mother makes the bullets and my father fires them.
It's been quite difficult to get my head round, I suspect my DB has known this for years as he is LC. Last night culminated in her screaming at me down the phone as I called both parents out on their recent Narc behaviour. The whole telephone convo was about how upset they were, completely missing the point about their behaviour. I stayed v v calm and asked her what it was she wanted from me, that was when she erupted.

I've also been analysing myself and some of my traits which has been equally difficult as I think I need to make some self improvements. DH is being very supportive which is helping.

I'm in my 40s FFS how have I not seen this before?...

phoenixnix · 07/01/2017 19:51

I have a child but I don't think anything has got worse since I had her.

I think I'm glad that my DM is the ignoring rather than the engulfing type. I do experience a lot of rejection and disappointment in that she's often too busy or stressed to talk to me or see me (especially as she's not busy, she doesn't work or have any hobbies or friends) but at least I'm not having to deal with her every day. (Other than in my head.) That must be very difficult.

OP posts:
MusicIsMedicine · 07/01/2017 20:00

finlaggan I didn't see it fully until my mid thirties.

It is common for narc parents to blow up when you finally dare to stand up to them after years or even decades of them bullying you into submission.

phoenixnix · 07/01/2017 20:01

Does anybody else with narc parents feel that they infantilise them?

Mine do. They have always encouraged me and my siblings to call them mummy and daddy into adulthood, which I'm embarrassed to say that I still do in my 30s. One of my siblings still does too (who I believe is/was the golden child.) I always thought it was just something I never grew out of, but DM has told me over the years that she likes it (and of course all I've wanted to do is please!)

She often gives me a bag of food when I see her. I know that sounds kind but it can be quite random stuff and I am capable of doing my own food shopping!

I realise that as a child / teen I wasn't taught any practical skills like cooking or sewing. I always thought that was because DM preferred to be in control, but I wonder now on either a conscious or subconscious level whether it was an attempt to stop me becoming independent.

OP posts:
Birdandsparrow · 07/01/2017 20:07

Oh yes, totally, it's one of the things they do. They also parentify and can both parentify and infantilise the same children in different ways.

Birdandsparrow · 07/01/2017 20:21

parrishmiller.com/narcissists.html
This is excellent.

phoenixnix · 07/01/2017 20:35

This strikes a chord from that article

She will deliver generalized barbs that are almost impossible to rebut (always in a loving, caring tone): "You were always difficult" "You can be very difficult to love" "You never seemed to be able to finish anything" "You were very hard to live with" "You're always causing trouble" "No one could put up with the things you do."

These are exactly the things that I've heard so so many times. I had a string of failed relationships before meeting DH and she told me on more than one occasion that nobody could ever put up with me. Now I'm wondering whether I've had problems in relationships due to how I was brought up?!

OP posts:
Absofrigginlootly · 07/01/2017 20:59

Op read this website it will be a lightbulb moment Flowers

www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/

howtheheckdoidealwiththis · 07/01/2017 21:08

That article Birdandsparrow is spot on. The best explanation I've read and I've read many.... going to print it out tomorrow & highlight all relevant parts, I can see there are many. Sad I'm going to stick it up to remind me it's her not me. Thank you for posting it.

Birdandsparrow · 07/01/2017 21:43

You're welcome, it was my lightbulb article too. A few years ago. Smile

pklme · 07/01/2017 22:11

So, what about people who seem to care some of the time? Who express interest but don't follow through. Can they be trying to pass as normal? Or are they genuinely interested but not for long, not if it's inconvenient or gets boring?
My DM is like Hyacinth bucket, not extreme, not out of control, just quietly self absorbed and insistent on getting her own way. Not because she doesn't care about you, of course, but because she knows best. She tells you how unflattering your new dress is because you need to know how awful it looks from the back. She stops speaking to you because you are making such a big mistake.
I can't quite work it out...

Birdandsparrow · 07/01/2017 22:22

My mother doesn't fit all of it, but there are clear patterns of behavior. She can be kind and loving too, but it is nonetheless underpinned by total self absorption and batshittery. Dysfunction. So, not always horrible but it's there underneath waiting to be provoked. She's like a toddler, can be lovely but can also be a total selfish raging nightmare. Does that make sense?

Pimplemousse · 07/01/2017 22:46

My DM is like this too. It's shit but I do find some humour in the pattern narcs seem to repeat. There so is a 'handbook'.

My DM doesn't try to give me clothes unless she has had no use for them for at least 15 years.. but, say I have a job interview or am going to a wedding (...which in the past I might have mentioned to her..) she does press me very hard to borrow her clothes.

She's four dress sizes bigger than me and into very very different clothes than me. She used to get very offended if I said no, though, so I'd always have to gratefully accept and leave with a carrier bag of stuff.
I always feared her rage- used to fucking terrify me. I still hate it but now she does it more often, I can see it imore as being about her than about me.

I was a golden child so it took me while to realise WTF was going on in the family. Now I am the scapegoat since trying to impose boundaries for a few years now.

DM can be very charming (acquaintances love her!) and her 'thing' is always that she is so hard done by. In some ways objectively so, (like many people) but also she needs to be in the victim role at all times. Next to anyone who's had the same or worse issues, she patently couldn't give a fuck about their problems and just wants to get them out of the picture as quickly as she can.

phoenixnix · 08/01/2017 01:09

I bet my DM has had it worse than all of yours though Grin

She used to tell me that I was going to "push her into an early grave". Who the fuck says that to a child? I was a straight A student, never in any trouble, who just stood up her occasionally.

OP posts:
phoenixnix · 08/01/2017 01:10

Up to her!*

OP posts: