One of us is spectacularly wrong.

[user1471456416]

I'm married to a lovely man, he is kind,caring and brilliant dad to our children.
However, he has this horrible habit of not listening to or acknowledging my opinions or thoughts on things. Sometimes trivial, sometimes bigger choices that he just gets on with.
Over many years of marriage this is the only
thing we ever argue about because it makes me feel so inadequate and simply ignored as though my opinion just isn't important enough to be considered.
For example, bigger things such as moving house he will not even entertain because he simply doesn't want to move. I,on the other hand would at least hear him out and at least think about it.
He doesn't even let me finish my sentence before he says no to anything he doesn't agree with.This sends me crazy and I've told him many many times it makes me feel worthless and ignored.
So, the problem. We have a large family and are fairly broke. Everyone's fed and bills paid but little left for luxuries.
I specifically said let's not get expensive gifts for each other for Christmas because we're trying to save for a caravan holiday in the summer. Please could we put any money we had away for the holiday.
I was very clear about this, explaining how we could then have a better holiday for us all.
Despite this, I got a bottle of expensive perfume, which he's bought me several time previously and each time I've thanked him and gently said but please don't buy it for me again and he's gone and spent several hundred pound on a necklace.
I'm so upset! Mostly because he has completely ingnored my wishes again, despite me telling how sad it makes me feel to be ignored. Also he's now really cross and hurt because he keeps saying how he was just trying to do something nice for me.
Something nice would be putting that money in the holiday pot as I asked.
Now I've got perfume I don't like and a necklace I can't return.
But mostly I'm so upset he's just done what he wants again and now I look spectacularly ungrateful.
I can't find the words to express how insignificant I feel when he does this. I know he doesn't do it on purpose but now we've fallen out and I feel crap about myself.

He closes down conversations because he worries about our finances and doesn't see the point in moving house when we have a perfectly fine house.

Yup - in his mind you are both happy with your home, so he doesn't want to rock the boat by discussing it, which could lead to his mindset changing and thinking you aren't happy, which in turn will lead him to need to do something to "make you happy".

His need to keep you happy will override his actual opinion about a house move - he'll go along with something that he doesn't really want to do if he believes it will make you happy - hence his avoidance of discussing those big issues.

Horribly, horribly familiar. I hope that you don't wait as long as I did before realising that you can be so much happier. The emotional baggage I've been left with is taking years to deal with.

Just out of curiosity, OP, your title asserted that one of you is spectacularly wrong.

Have you concluded which of you that is yet?

The relationship sounds frustrating and your posts are full of contradictions. It seems like you're confused by his motives, and that he really doesn't listen to what you're actually saying.

i dont care if people don't agree with me, but you sound as controlling as he is in your own way.

Telling him to never buy you anything ever again because he didn't do what YOU told him to about paying into the holiday fund? WTF?

And all the other examples, are you sure you're not just getting pissed off because he won't do what he's told?

You sound controlling and ungrateful.

and OMG, wanting to replace a lost diamond you were clearly upset about and spent DAYS looking for...what a horrible man

Op if he has some deep seated need to get you things to prove himself that he doesn't seem to be able to control despite your asking him for different things, I wonder if next birthday or Christmas it would be worth saying to him that you want the money for the holiday but you would also like him to spend say £10 on 3 things that he thinks you would love, including something to eat and something you can put on. Maybe you do it for him too.

It's got to be an amount of money that is relatively trivial that won't make a difference to your holiday savings but is enough to buy three things with, even if one of them is a 50p bar of your favourite Choc, one is a pretty hair slide or scarf to wear on holiday and one is a beach ball ready to play on the beach...

You might only like the Choc but the rest is small/cheap enough to ignore.

He gets to fulfill his kicks from giving you 3 thoughtful things and hopefully won't have gone over budget. So you still get the extra money to put in the holiday pot.

I know it's not as ideal as him just doing as you asked. But given that this seems to be the way he is, it may well be a way to manage the situation so that you both end up happy.

user1481840227/CherrySkull

Your responses are exactly why other people are saying that dealing with people like this are such a problem. My exh was exactly the same and he spent a our whole marriage being angry with me because I didn't appreciate his help.

It's true. He was very helpful. But he didn't meet needs I actually had, only ones he thought I had. He did all of the things the OP, and others, have described and more. It was never about me, it was always, and only ever, about him. Him feeling that he was generous, him feeling that he was supportive, him feeling that he could sort things out, him feeling in control, him feeling that he always had the answers, him feeling like A Man.

When I think back to the arguments...

We split up a few years ago. He sought therapy for himself to help him cope with the evil bitch ex wife who hadn't valued or appreciated him throughout the marriage. It was actually his therapist who made him realise that this behaviour was wrong, and I only know this because he came to me after 4 months and apologised. He genuinely couldn't see how damaging the behaviour was to the relationship.

So you might not see the problem, but it's interesting that every single person who has been in a relationship with someone like this is saying that it is.

Good post Ghost.

As always, MN has helped clarify some of the screwed up issues I recognise all too well. Thank you ghost for that post, it resonated a lot with me.

OP, my ex-H had similar traits. He couldn't do enough for me, or for anyone. He loved making people's lives better and fixing problems. I was the envy of all my friends because he brought me breakfast in bed every day we were together. I'd find snacks in my bag at work because he hadn't wanted me to be hungry. He'd back up my devices for me every few months so I always had room for more photos and stuff. If I left clothes catalogues round the house with favourite things marked, they'd be arriving in the post within a few weeks because he'd secretly ordered them as a surprise.

So lovely. What a perfect husband. Except the stuff he'd ordered from that catalogue would be the wrong item, or would be in totally the wrong size, and then I was faced with a dilemma. If I said it was the wrong one or in the wrong size he'd throw an almighty strop, so I'd have to return it secretly or accept something I'd never wear. When he backed up my devices he'd delete things I wanted to keep, and once when I asked him to please please stop messing about with my stuff without my knowledge, he snapped back "fine, I'll never do anything for you ever again then". If I wasn't hungry, or felt ill, or didn't like what he'd made me for breakfast, I would never consider not eating it all because he'd be so put out that I wasn't just grateful enough.

In the end, I couldn't ask for anything. If I said I wanted something (or even that I liked something), he'd snap at me that the fact I'd asked for something meant I wouldn't get it, I had to wait to for things to be given freely by him. If I pointed out any DIY or technical issues with the house, he'd become angry at that too, because I was "pushing him to do something instead of waiting for him to notice and make the decision".

So when we split up and he was crowing at me that "I gave you everything, I spent all my time doing things for you", it was a lightbulb moment for me to realise he had indeed spent all his time doing things for me, but that he only gave what he wanted to give. He didn't ever want to know what I wanted or what my needs might have been, my job was just to accept what he wanted me to accept, as if my only role was to be grateful and make him feel like the perfect, generous husband. To confirm it, when I said to him "I feel as if you don't see me as an equal", he said "because you're not my equal. When you stopped work to look after the children, you became a dependent, just like one of the other kids". Which I suppose meant he got to just make decisions on my behalf about what I wanted and needed.

It's a form of control, of course. It's all lovely to start with, but if someone does something and you ask them not to because it bothers or upsets you, and then they keep doing it anyway, THAT is a problem regardless of whether the thing that bothers you is "nice" or "nasty". Because the clear message is that your needs and opinions mean shit to them, and they're only interested in doing what makes them happy.

Ghost, I can understand how 2 people in a relationship may clash and have issues if one is like the OP and the other is like her husband, however I don't think that means that he's the bad guy or that she is either really, just that they are a bad match for each other.

user it's a form of manipulation, control and emotional abuse.

You are not entirely wrong in what you say. My exh has a girlfriend now and, by all accounts, he is no different. Our son describes the relationship as a bit 'odd' and 'co-dependent'. He sees her as being very needy and him as needing to be needed.

So yes, they are clearly more compatible than he and I were, but co-dependent relationships are not considered to be particularly healthy, neither are emotionally manipulative ones.

I can't imagine that many women (because it is usually women on the receiving end of this) want to be deprived of autonomy and independent thought because they live with someone who, inaccurately anticipates all their needs.

The key to it is that, you have no choice but to accept it because if you "thanks, but no thanks" or it becomes obvious it isn't right, then you are 'punished' for it. That is not a loving relationship.

Greypaw I could feel the old anxiety rising just reading that post

I think people with those kind of habits or personality traits could just as easily be in a healthy happy relationship, not just a co-dependent one, as long as they meet someone they are compatible with.

As I said in one of my earlier posts I think we'd need to hear more examples about the bigger things that he acts like this with.

She mentioned moving house and that he shut down the conversation, now I do think that's bad of course but that would be quite common for people to do when their partners want to make life changing decisions, moving house, moving country, more babies and so on, it's not abusive but does need to be dealt with.

The other examples she listed are questionable because for me they do seem like maybe she could be the controlling one.
I'll go through them to show you why I think that, the perfume and the jewellery, he worked extra hours because he wanted to buy those things for her, she insisted that any money be put in the holiday fund but he didn't want to do that, why does she get all the say in what he can spend his money on? I wonder if he had worked extra hours and treated himself to a few hundred quids worth of stuff instead of putting it in the fund would she have been happy with that or would that have also annoyed her?

The kitchen...did he have any say in the original choice of the kitchen? I know in general us women will often think it's our thing to decide so would be very peed off at being overruled on that, a bit like the way some women (me included) like to make the decisions about kids hair cuts and things like that.

The rescue dog....did he think that maybe she just wanted a rescue dog because they were cheaper and then saw a puppy he thought the family would fall in love with? I mean dogs/puppies are a family thing anyway.

Buying steak instead of lamb.....how often would things like that happen? Who chooses what's for dinner most of the time? I doubt she chooses and asks him to pick it up and he changes it around all the time if she's the one cooking it...or else she'd just start picking it up herself!

The ice cream.....is he buying them for everyone and just thinks if they're all getting sprinkles and flakes then she might prefer the works on hers too?

The other thing she mentioned about him trying to help cooking and washing up, yeah it sounds very annoying but he'd want to have some very serious problems to be actually trying to annoy her in that way!!
She said he's always asking is she warm enough, does she want a drink and so on.

Really the more I read the more I think that the OP is always grumpy and he's trying to always put a smile on her face but gets it all wrong.

The only major problem I can see with him from what I've read is that he refused to discuss the house move but not discussing life changing stuff is a problem that many people have and not an indicator of abuse on it's own.

OP, are you my husband's second wife???

You have described my husband exactly - it is quite spooky.

I have told my husband he can be controlling (but not maliciously so), and he acknowledges he is inclined to be that way, and has recognised some reasons behind it. Now I give him real time feedback ("you know we talked about you being controlling? This is one of those times"). Sometimes he responds to that and stops it ( I throw him out the kitchen if he keeps putting stuff I am still using into the dishwasher ). Other times he needs a period of time to calm down then he can be more reflective (this is when he is soothing his anxiety by being controlling).

I'm lucky in that my DH works directly with situations where domestic violence and coercive controlling relationships happen (he has to intervene), so he 'gets' that it is unacceptable to be controlling in this way, and has some insight into my perspective. Without that I think I'd be banging my head against a brick wall.

I'm another one who was married to a man who gave me expensive gifts that I didn't want, and sometimes had explicitly said I didn't want. I grew to dread Christmas and birthdays, and would feel sick unwrapping my presents from him. It started with him buying me clothes, because they were more to his liking than the clothes I already had. Our first Christmas together he bought me a leather jacket, despite me already saying, and thinking that we'd agreed not to spend more than about £30 on each other. He told me he'd bought the leather jacket because I didn't have one and "everyone should have a leather jacket"! I thought then, but didn't say, that if I'd wanted a leather jacket, I'd have bought one for myself.

One year, we were at a family party in November and I overheard him talking to my cousin about digital cameras (this is about 16 years ago when they were a new thing and very expensive). I guessed this was going to be my Christmas present, so I said to him that if he was thinking about that, then thanks but no thanks, as I already had a very good camera which was one of the few things my late grandfather had bought me. So, I got a digital camera for Christmas and he constantly moaned about the fact that it cost all that money and I didn't use it.

The final big, unwanted present was a designer watch which cost about £300. I am happy to wear a cheap but functional watch, I don't wear jewellery and I am very much not into labels. He was furious that I wasn't suitably grateful, and I was upset that he knew me so little and cared so little that he could ever give me such a thing. I took it back to the jewellers, who said that they didn't give refunds, but I was in such a state about the cost of the thing, that they decided to give me a refund after all. The money went back onto his card, the matter was never spoken of again, and I got no present that year.

It is all about control. It is about some fantasy that these men have about a relationship with a wife or partner who exists only in their imagination.

user, you seem to be saying that it is fine for him to make unilateral decisions about what the op should/would like that ignore the OP's specifically expressed wishes as long as his intentions were to be nice?

Relationships like that just do not work. People like that can't have a good relationship. To have good communication in a relationship it is important to listen. To have a happy relationship you have to take into account the actual potential effects of things you do and say on the other person, not meaning to do something bad is not a good enough excuse if someone is repeatedly ignoring clear communication and doing what they want to do because they think it will be nice for the other person if they ignore them.

We know it isn't nice for the op and we know she had told him numerous times how it makes her feel insignificant and disrespected when he ignores her so on what is he basing this opinion that repeatedly ignoring her is a nice thing to do? It isn't any feedback from the op about the actual effects that's for sure...

Lot's of men in this society have been raised with the idea that women don't say what they mean and don't mean what they say and you have to guess what is actually required. It could be something to do with this.

Offred, i'm saying that what I'm picking up from the thread is that it's possible that the OP is very grumpy and controlling herself about stuff so he's acting like a puppy dog to try to please her.....and getting it all wrong.

At the end of the day if your partner irritates you then they can try all they want to please you but you won't be pleased.

And often partners irritate the other because they are not compatible anymore, it's not really either persons fault.

But what I'm saying is that he isn't getting the idea that what he is doing is nice from the OP. She has given examples of how she has communicated her actual feelings/wants to him and then he has decided to ignore her and decide to do something 'better'. Something he has decided is better for her and he keeps doing this even though she keeps telling him it is not nice and makes her feel ignored.

So where is he getting the idea from that it is nice? It is not from her and yes, she is grumpy, she is entitled to be grumpy because he doesn't listen to her or include her in decisions that involve her.

Puzzled why posters write things, get replies, then defend the person they were writing about
If hes so marvellous what do you want people to say?

My dh can be a little like this, but over the years I have managed to get the message across that he needs to listen to me more and act on that, rather than what he thinks I want.

He's also constantly tidying and used to move things which he thought I didn't "need". It took a massive row (about my exercise DVDs) to make him see what a controlling dick he was being.
Christmas/birthdays are much better as I now give him a list of things I would like and he chooses off that. In the past he's bought me whoppingly expensive items which I can't wear very often.
I think it's due to his upbringing - he had very limited say in what he did as a child until his mid twenties as he was made to work in the family business. he was very controlled and he thought that was a normal way to treat people.

Sorry for the ramble, but despite what some are saying, people can change. You need to keep talking with each other. Hope it works out.

Offred, can you not see that it doesn't look like she includes him in decisions either?

I understand that he's not getting the idea that what he is doing is nice from the OP, I'm saying maybe he is just desperately trying to please her and getting it all wrong.

This is just one thread on here where i'd love to hear his side of the story, he could have a million other examples where he did things for her that she loved and he got the desired result of making her happy.

I can't see anything other than you making up stories about how a man (who has been very clearly communicated with) can't 'seem' to do anything right and a load of assumptions about things women usually do so that must be what the op did user.

What is the reason you are imputing the op has a problem, being grumpy? Is that even a problem compared to ignoring your spouse's feelings, when it is the op's h who has several times ignored clear and direct communication?

To do a nice thing for someone you can't just present them with the thing you think is nicest with zero regard for what they would want/what they have said and if your spouse repeatedly ignores you you are entitled to be grumpy!

I don't see where you getting the idea from, User ...0227, that she's not including him in decisions. In relation to the Christmas gifts she says she spoke to him about it, and her reasoning was clear and constructive. Money is tight, they're saving for a holiday, and so it would be better for the whole family to put money towards that instead of Christmas gifts. Instead, she got perfume which she has already in the past said that she doesn't really want, and a very expensive piece of jewellery which she had never asked for.

Her husband on the other hand, doesn't listen to her - to the point of not letting her finish her sentences if he doesn't want to hear what she's saying, and just getting on with things irrespective of her wishes or thoughts.

There's a pattern of behaviour here, extending over years and not just limited to this Christmas.

Offred, I'm made my reasons clear as to why that's coming across to me as a possibility.

User1479, SHE decided she wanted the money put in the pot, he wanted to buy her something and worked extra hours.

I asked the OP to elaborate and give examples of other times he doesn't listen, I do think it's quite telling that the examples she listed out are all relatively small.