Idealise, devalue, discard - anyone had experience of this? I think I have.

[JudithTaverner]

I'm trying to make sense of being dumped pretty much out of the blue by someone who only last week was proclaiming undying love and planning to move in with me.

Stupidly I took him back after he dumped me a few months ago - came back to me sobbing asking if I'd take him back and I stupidly believed all of his promises. Both times he's gone back to a previous girlfriend, who he's broken up with in a similar way at least 5 times over the last few years. I thought from his vitriolic stories about her that she was nothing.

Anyway, they're irrelevant to me, but I'm struggling with the shock of the sudden dumping, the complete lack of communication and the complete switch from love to hate pretty much over night.

I've gone NC, but he lives near me and I dread bumping into him. I'm a nervous wreck every time I go to my local shops. How quickly will this get better?

Even now I'm doubting myself that he is sociopathic etc. Started to doubt myself that I was the unreasonable one.

It's a mind fuck it really is.

Judith Yes. They know it and they get off on the power of keeping you guessing.. Did you get the smirk, the half-smile, the duper's delight?

He was so arrogant

Smiled benignly

Even during the Last few days when he was withdrawing and I was upset he asked me if I'd got out of bed on the wrong side.

Even during the Last few days when he was withdrawing and I was upset he asked me if I'd got out of bed on the wrong side

Easier to put the blame on you, it takes the focus away from his behaviour. It's part of the game to keep you second guessing yourself.

He definitely sounds like a sociopath so don't doubt yourself.

Sociopath doesn't really mean anything. It's not a Psychiatric diagnosis - views of what it is differ widely. Narcissistic PD or dis-social PD are diagnoses but there are specific criteria to be met which go beyond someone treating someone badly in relationships. And it cannot be assessed/diagnosed by a 'victim' of that persons awful behaviour because there is no objectivity.

And if someone does have a PD then that is something they can't control or change any more than they could control being Autistic or having another neuro developmental disorder. It is a pervasive mental disorder. And a disorder which usually results from early trauma.

I know a lot of people find it helpful to read stuff on-line or on MN and think ' oh it makes sense now' but I don't think there's always enough evidence to suggest a PD and it is a popular thing on-line to assess people that have damaged you as a narc/sociopath. And if there IS enough evidence , then that's something the person can't control - it is who they is. They should be considered as anyone else with a mental disorder in my view and not considered as deliberately awful people.

Not all behaviour can be pathologised. All people will fall into broad categories of behaviour but they're not always related to a mental disorder.

I'm not sure it's always helpful to try to pathologise unacceptable behaviour. And if that behaviour IS pathological then you're dealing with someone with a mental disorder.

All you can do is cut yourself from that person that damaged you - because they damaged you and that's a good enough reason. Looking online for things that may help you understand them (but may be completely incorrect) doesn't help in my view. It's still keeping them in your mind, it's still YOU taking responsibility for trying to understand why they did what they did. It's still you trying to figure out what they did and why they did it when they aren't giving you a second thought. It's still you ruminating on what went wrong. Don't waste your time wondering if they're a 'sociopath' or not.

Just cut them off and don't let them damage you again. That's the best thing you can do for YOU.

It's still you ruminating on what went wrong

Yes. this.

I got an email from mine today after 2 weeks radio silence.

I spent an hour and a half replying. Carefully. Keeping the 'upper hand'.

He spent 2 mins reading it and gave a 2 line reply.

(mine does have an official pathology)

'mine' (!) - you know what I mean, hopefully...

A cousin of dhs does this to women, leaving them shattered. We'd never see him if he wasn't family. His behaviour is disgusting and every time I see him with a woman, I wonder should I warn her but then I don't because I will just look like some sort of interfering unhinged distant relative who perhaps fancies Mr Narc for herself. Please please op don't put any of this into yourself. You were the victim, try to be glad that you are free of someone who would treat others so appallingly. In the case of dhs cousin, the treatment of the victim isn't anything to do with them or what they said or did, its just he's ready to restart the cycle with someone else. Horrible.

Have you read the book 'Attached' about attachment styles in adult relationships?

I'd really recommend it!

Silk- I've worked in MH for years and been involved in the diagnosis of PDs. It's a complex process and should take huge amounts of assessment.

Another Psychologist colleague of mine used to be involved in these assessments and multidisciplinary meetings with me and when we didn't diagnose someone we had a standing joke of afterwards going out for a fag and saying ' yeah, just a cunt!'. Although that probably sounds really unprofessional but when you're dealing day after day with damaging and often dangerous individuals - you need to lighten the mood.

But in terms of genuinely NPD or DPD people - they are simply put 'wired differently'. They aren't in control of their personality or their world view. They will NEVER be. They will never see things the way that you do. You can try to understand them but you never will. You can try to make them understand how you feel and they never will.

To me, with all my experience of working with them in the community and in prisons and hospitals, they are like a hologram. It looks like a 3D person but it isn't, when you look from the right angle, it's not a full person. It's someone pretending to be a full person but lacking the emotional richness and understanding and personal emotional experiences that makes us human. They experience fleeting feelings of happiness but never real happiness because the things that define real happiness don't mean anything to them.

I feel sorry for them without disregarding the damage they can do. But I think these people make up a small proportion of the on-line/MN 'narcs' or 'sociopaths.

Thisjustino

I disagree with you. I do have objectivity and am quite able to take an overview position on NPD behaviour. This is because I have the benefit of hindsight and also it is fairly easy to diagnose NPD as per the criteria outlined in the DSMV-II.

In my personal experience, the narcissist perfectly fit the criteria. It was clear. The fact that the behaviour was a pattern that had been enacted consistently with many other women tells me that the behaviour he exhibited was deeply entrenched.

I don't agree that personality disorders are like autism and they can't help themselves. Firstly it is possible to manage and work upon, for example, BPD. I know this.
Second, the various manipulations that narcissists employ in the interpersonal relationships demonstrates a great deal of forethought and planning. They do know what they're doing, they just don't really care as their needs come first.

Thisjustino

I should also add that I am also in the 'field'. Also definitions of NPD can vary across disciplines and modalities. DSMV-II is only one set of criteria.

I have zero advice but I did want to say Judith that you have an awesome username and sounds like you have some of the strength and determination of the original Miss Taverner

Unless you're a Psychiatrist, no you can't diagnose. Otherwise we reduce Psychiatry from a skilled profession requiring years of training and experience to someone who has access to Google.

And you cannot be objective when someone has damaged you. You simply can't. Of course you will be biased.

And you can't have it both ways. You can't say that someone has a mental disorder yet still be in full control of and enjoying the manipulations, forethought and damage they cause. So if there's no disorder, that's just an awful person.

You're either talking about someone with a mental disorder or not.

And you can work on PDs if you know and understand you have one. Some people with BPD can work on it, many don't think they have it so can't. I've known some people with antisocial PD accept it and work with it but it's rare and usually because they want to stay out of prison. NPD, it's virtually unheard of because one of the characteristics of the disorder is that the sufferer doesn't think they have it and think it's everyone else that has the problem.

I'd be interested to know what part of 'the field' you're in where you feel having a personality disorder is something that people choose.

Yoarchie, it might be worth warning the women.

They won't listen at the time. But in the long run, after he leaves them shattered, your words of warning might reassure them that

1. other people saw through him
2. It wasn't just them - it wasn't their fault
3. There can be healing.

If you take the long view, warning the women could be quite helpful. Some might forget your words, some won't even if they put it down to spite at the time. But in the long run, they'll understand.

You might get some of them -telling- him that you've warned them though, while they are still in the taken-in phase and before the devastation hits. That might rebound back on you. But if you can handle that, it'd probably be a good thing to do.

Thisjustino

We have to agree to disagree. And the reason I was vague, 'in the field' was deliberately so.

You're coming from this from a very specific angle. And that's fine. But I don't agree with everything you've argued.

I don't believe that NPD or BPD diagnosed people are completely out of control of their behaviours and thoughts. That may be true for some of the time when they have been triggered and are reactive. But I do believe that there is some capacity and self awareness to have forethought at times.

With regards your statement that I was implying that people 'choose' to have a personality disorder. I did not imply that, you interpreted it in that way.
I believe personality disorders develop in response to environmental/caregiving failures in infancy and childhood. And that can effect the development of the brain pathways. People are not responsible for abuse, neglect or trauma they may have suffered in their childhood.

That is not to say I disagree with everything you've written but we differ on some points. But it's good to have healthy debate.

Yes it is good to have a healthy debate and I have no issue with you at all personally, I hope it didn't come across that way. I am frequently annoyed by serious Psychiatric diagnoses being used on MN (usually NPD, OCD or PTSD) when there is little evidence and it seems to be an idea that Psychiatry is a less valid or skilled discipline so anyone can diagnose via MN or the Internet when most aspects of medicine would not be spoken of with such 'confidence'. Particularly when so many people behaving abhorrently are assessed as having mental disorders and it's probably not the case.

So I admit to being a little sensitive!.

And I agree that people with BPD/NPD aren't always out of control of their behaviours but I view it in the same way as someone having OCD, health anxiety or anorexia. Yes they could not perform rituals, not seek reassurance that they're healthy or not restrict calories because it is in their control. It's not the same as someone that is psychotic and has lost touch with reality and has literally lost control but it's still an underlying mental disorder driving their choices.

Thank you for a respectful exchange of views though

thanks all, that's an interesting debate. I think it probably doesn't really matter whether he does have NPD or not (although I think he probably does and so does my psychotherapist and all my friends for that matter) - he treated me badly and that's just not acceptable whatever the reason.

I've decided that I'm going to emerge much stronger from all of this anyway.

I'll have a look for that book stumblymonkey

and thanks tinkliev!

I'm with Dead
Solely in the case of NPDs/ASPDs I get a bit fed up of armchair psychiatrists being automatically written off. IMO someone who has lived with a person with odd behaviour for many many years - decades - is in an equally good position to judge their character as a psychiatrist. They have seen the full range of the behaviour, including the rare occasions when the mask slips. NPDs/ASPDs can be such supreme actors that it would be easy for them to keep up the pretence of who they really are in a psychiatrist's consultations, as they already do in police interviews, family courtrooms, and with family, friends and colleagues.
Let's not forget the reason there are so few diagnosed NPDs/ASPDs is not because there are few of them, it's more that their mental health status is not causing them any problems, resulting in few of them seeking medical help for it. Exploiting and manipulating others is giving them a nice life, even if it's superficial.
Definitive answers on personality disorders do not yet exist. BBC Horizon programmes (on Youtube) present recent research suggesting a genetic influence in combination with an environmental one.
Research in the Nineties showed that attempts to treat ASPDs with therapy backfired and instead served as a finishing school, teaching them what they need to do to blend in to society better and appear 'normal' to get away with creating carnage in others' lives.
Trauma/neglect in childhood is not always an explanation either. NPDs/ASPDs are found in all walks of life, including boardrooms and other highly responsible jobs with eye-watering salaries. Yes, I think personality disordered people absolutely are able to choose when to manipulate and exploit. It is those with mental illness who cannot. NPDs/ASPDs do it because it suits them or because they think they can get away with it. The cunning and deception takes forethought and planning, it is pre-meditated. The personal benefits and the sense of winning are addictive to them.
And I get really irritated when some insist on giving Trump the benefit of the doubt. Please, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck . . .it is a duck. Of course empathy and reason are important but in some cases it is a naive response IMO. Certain people just need a health warning on them for the protection of unsuspecting others.

A mental disorder is still a mental disorder. That's why they're in the diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders and not the DSM of being a bastard.

It is who they are. It is the way they 'work', it shapes their self-concept, world view and their interactions with others. I am probably coming from a different point of view because I have met far more people with these diagnoses than a lot of other people and yes, there probably are some in boardrooms weilding power and influence but in ASPD it's far more likely that they're in and out of prison and leading pretty shit lives.

And an accurate and full assessment for PD isn't just based on what the person tells the Psychiatrist and when you have experienced HCPs who work with these disorders it's not easy to 'pull the wool over their eyes'. I don't think Police and Courts are always that easy too, otherwise the service I used to work for wouldn't have had so many referrals for assessment from them.

NPD is a little different and more likely to be 'successful' in life but still a half-life (IMO) and an exhausting way to live which borders on a delusional disorder sometimes.

I absolutely agree that some people should come with a health warning though!. And Trump? I'd say he has some 'issues' related to personality

Yes, I think personality disordered people absolutely are able to choose when to manipulate and exploit. It is those with mental illness who cannot. NPDs/ASPDs do it because it suits them or because they think they can get away with it. The cunning and deception takes forethought and planning, it is pre-meditated. The personal benefits and the sense of winning are addictive to them

What do you trained people think of the view that a lot of people with ASPD actually fit reasonably well and not destructively into society. From what I've read the difference between someone with ASPD who can fit into society non-destructively and someone who can't is the upbringing. A steady, nurturing background with a moral code and the examples of people living that code seem to make all the difference. It's not that the people with ASPD can -feel- or empathise, but that the advantages of reasonably ok behaviour seem to be easier to see ... if you see what I mean.

If that's true it also begs the question of accurate diagnosis rates. It would seem impossible to have any genuine idea?

This is all very interesting.

The person I am referring to was first sectioned aged 17.
He has been sectioned a number of times between then and his current age (67). For around 6-8 months total.

He says 'it has been called various things, mostly paranoid schizophrenia. I know when it is coming on. it makes me manic. I do things like handstands in traffic, and crossing a concert hall to fall weeping at the feet of a musician'.

Of course, I only have his version.

So, clearly a MH issue. He says he has difficulties separating fantasy and reality at times. Also from my experience of knowing him over 30 years, he is desperate to form authentic connection but lacks the internal structure to do more than parody it, I believe.

So, does he do it 'on purpose'? No probably not.
Is he capable of being partially aware and limiting the damage? Yes.

I think he is typical in that he is absolutely DRAWN to people with a rich and strong internal structure, which he then has to try to 'destroy/run from' as he sees authenticity and then cannot cope with it.

But, not necess PD / narc etc???

Thisjust There is a huge amount of anecdotal evidence on the internet, starting with the 'co-parenting with a narcissist' thread on MN Relationships, that suggests the courts and the police are deceived by personality disordered individuals on a regular basis. Did you see James Nesbitt's character twist things in the courtroom scene in the true story of The Secret (ITV)?
Then there is this recent research My understanding is it is not true to say most NPDs/ASPDs are in and out of prison. There are plenty 'successful' ones who make sure they know how to avoid crossing the law, while sailing close to it frequently.
And the DSM is not set in stone. It is updated periodically as new research reveals new insight into this problem for society. NPD wasn't even in it until about 1980.