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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Why do they have the right? Why is it fair?

124 replies

g059902 · 11/12/2016 21:18

How is it then men have the right to be...a part of/the leader in creating a family; a home; becoming a step parent and creating a bond with that child; persuading and promising to "always do the right thing" and be sure they work as part of a partnership through all the good and bad times that come with starting a family; be present at a women's most vulnerable, emotional and intimate moments of giving birth and bringing a life into the world and then just decide to leave.
I understand that are always factors that are to be taken into consideration, however, generally on the whole, when there was "true" happiness, but things get a bit rocky, how is it men have the option and think it is "normal" and acceptable to just leave? I am not talking about just my own circumstances, it happens all the time. You hear of men just leaving and as in my circs, I imagine it is a common theme that they will use any excuse, any reason, any flaw to somehow justify what they have done. Women since the age of time and probably for the rest of time, have been left "holding the baby"; managing the household; finances; ensuring their children are happy, as much as they can be when this happens; dealing with schools; doctors; appointments; illness; sleepless nights etc etc etc and all the while men think it is somehow ok, or justifiable to do this . And furthermore, take pride in creating a new life.
I just do not get it and I also do not see why they should be allowed to simply opt to do the part time dad thing and again, this be ok. When did this become so accepted and just a part of life that people need to get over?

This is not the life I wanted for my babies and neither do I think I should have to accept it just because that's a decision he has made. People around me say "he's too young" (hes 6 years my junior, early 20s) and he will realize his mistake one day; he wont ever get back this time; etc etc etc it still does not make it either justifiable or acceptable. However, society says it is and legally, it is. There is no moral justification to what I see as something that is probably the most important thing in life to be cast aside like a one night stand or left over food.
Why should I accept that my ex has decided that "there were aspects of my personality" he didn't like, and clearly he wasn't prepared to be the partner I was to him and help me to be the best version of myself and so ducked out of "our family" and within 24 hours into a new relationship to ensure that any opportunity that "could have" been was certainly not going to ever be.

So lets say things were bad (at the time we argued, a lot, I had PND and he was not engaging in the family unit as he should do but instead focused on his own wants and needs out until early hours, lack of engagement with the children lives; lying about where abouts and money; not supporting me as the bread winner when it was my time to work), someone decides they cant be bothered to put up with the arguments and leaves, fine (well not really but can be worked on), but surely, in the majority of these situations after the heat has died down as parents; adults; people who were apparently "in love" only a few weeks ago, it would be "normal" to allow what is meant to be, be. But, not here, here we have someone who has forced a situation and then moved in and on with someone else immediately, with no thought about what was a family unit.
But... this is acceptable, and I am just to get over it and on with life. Not only has my heart been broken, but my family unit, the life I created for my children has been shattered and will never be what it should be. My baby will never ever grow up having memories of climbing into bed on a weekend morning and cuddling/laughing; she won't have the Sunday afternoons of just lounging out after an activity or walk in the morning playing with daddy while Mummy cooks a roast and prepares for school and the work week; excitement on the preparation to Christmas and family holidays etc and all of the other cherished memories a child will hold on to. This person has managed to define, his; mine and my 2 children's lives and all that is to be done is move on and get over it.
How? How do you accept the fact that someone has been allowed to firstly do this, but secondly fail to give the family/a relationship any opportunity to either exist or not?

Why should women accept this? Why is this ok? And why should I now have to live without a section of my children's lives because of someone else's decision?

There are legal rights in place to protect absent parents who are fighting to be a part of their children lives, but what about for the parents that have been well and truly screwed over; abonded and left holding all the responsibility; the pain etc etc.

This is not fair on my children or I and for the many thousands of other families that go through this. The one thing in life that should be a serious commitment and not thrown away at the drop if a hat is a family and it is the most common thing that happens.

Its one thing to accept a relationship breakdown, fine these happen, but to disregard what should be something so pure and true without no second thought, that relationship and family unit, how is this ok on a moral level if nothing else!

OP posts:
LyingWitchInTheWardrobe2726 · 11/12/2016 23:26

I agree with that entirely, Jess. I know we can't make men be good fathers if they don't want to be but, if they father a child then they are 50% responsible for all monies needed to bring up that child, taking into account absolutely everything including childcare. If the mum elects to do that childcare then her 'bill' is reduced proportionately.

If it were up to me, men couldn't father any more children without being able to fully pay for the ones that they already have and I'd happily see them working four jobs if necessary to cover existing costs. I doubt Theresa May is on the same page.

Curlyloveswine · 11/12/2016 23:28

I have been waiting for a thread like this! OP and PPs, you've summed up my feelings so well.

I swear I could write a book with all of the entitled shite DD's ridiculous father comes out with. We recently went 9 weeks without maintenance because "the bank cancelled the standing order" and he couldn't pay it back because "I can't afford it- I've just been abroad for a week for a stag do, bought a mac book air been taking my new girlfriend out for dates and buying her expensive presents"
The double standards in these situations are crazy. The amount of times he has cancelled seeing DD on his day because of work but the day before known to have taken new girlfriend to London for the day... All while I arrange childcare so I can work. Imagine if I just announced "I cannot see my child on Sunday".

I hate how so many of these parents are deemed to have equal parental responsibility because their name is on the birth certificate. Parenting IMO is very much actions speak louder than words and should be reflected with the law.

I've made myself riled now.

Flowers for everyone powering on.

pieceofpurplesky · 11/12/2016 23:32

Totally agree with everything. Exh left because he felt life was difficult and had changed. Really? He got us in fuck loads of debt, moaned we did not have sex enough (a miscarriage led to to problems and had two operations to remove parts of my womb in a year - and bled every day in between. So didn't really feel like sex when in constant pain and bleeding!). He found it all too domestic and boring being a dad and husband.
Three years on he has a succession of girlfriends, sees his son for a few hours a week (if he does not have a football match to attend) and rarely has him overnight (last time August).
I think most women would have not left but would have understood and worked at it. Men of a certain age feel they need to start out again.

HandyWoman · 11/12/2016 23:32

tallwivglasses my exH reinvented himself as a fat hipster and wears dungarees so does provide humour where there is no actual gumption...

Hahahahaha Grin

tallwivglasses · 11/12/2016 23:34

And we will. Because we have to. Because we love our kids. It's lucky someone does because growing up knowing neither of your parents gave a shit can be so damaging in the long run.

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe2726 · 11/12/2016 23:34

I'm picturing him as a TellyTubby now, Handy Shock

ItShouldHaveBeenJingleJess · 11/12/2016 23:34

I have moments of absolute rage when I think about my ex fucking off with a twenty something (who, coincidentally, also walked out on her kids leaving the father to raise them). Apparently, they have more 'fun' than we ever did. I'll bet.

However, seven months on, I'm beginning to see things a little differently (I was a wreck for a while). 'Our' (my) son has ASD and no speech. I can now parent him according to his needs, instead of listening to bullshit about his 'bad behaviour'. I make the decisions about his education, his therapies, his routine - without being put down, criticised or questioned relentlessly. I now only have one child to pick up after. I don't have to worry about ex's disappearing acts, why he hides his phone or whether he's cheating on me - because I now know what he's capable of. Yes, it's tough, it's exhausting and it's bloody, bloody unfair - but for the first time in years, I feel free. A dead weight has been lifted from me. I'm no longer afraid of single-parenting because I'm doing it.

HandyWoman · 11/12/2016 23:35

Nah, Tellytubbies are sorta cute. ExH just ridiculous.

AndNoneForGretchenWieners · 11/12/2016 23:36

Sometimes though, women leave. Just up and go and leave their kids, their home and relationship, not because there was violence or infidelity or controlling behaviour on the man's part, but because she has decided she wants someone else.

DH's ex did this - walked out on a 13 year marriage and left her kids (10 and 2) to live with her lover who didn't want children. DH had full custody and brought the boys up alone without any help although she did pay maintenance. I have spoken to her about it as we get on really well. She told me that she just fell in love with the new chap and realised she couldn't stay married any more - she wanted the man more than the children. It has hurt DH immensely and he found trusting anyone really hard afterwards, but he is an awesome dad and made it work, just like women left in similar situations are awesome mums and make it work. Doesn't mean it's fair at all. Nobody - male or female - should abdicate responsibility and just leave without a backward glance because even if a relationship isn't working the children should always be put first.

tallwivglasses · 11/12/2016 23:37

Dungarees?? Good god, you're well-rid Wine

HandyWoman · 11/12/2016 23:42

These are post reinvention on self dungarees. But Yep. I so am!

Grin
OllyBJolly · 11/12/2016 23:43

Sometimes though, women leave

But that is very rare. It's nearly always the man that goes. I'm in my fifties, wide circle of friends of all ages and I know only one woman who left a marriage, and two couples who agreed to split with no one else involved. I've done a quick tot up of the breakdowns because the man left and I got to 35 and gave up counting.

tallwivglasses · 11/12/2016 23:47

Gretchen yes they do. I know of one who was a victim of domestic violence in a small town in the 70's. No support available. She has a great relationship with her dc now - they understand. I don't have statistics at hand but I would imagine figures for men abandoning their children is higher

ItShouldHaveBeenJingleJess · 11/12/2016 23:49

The entire attitude to equality in parenting needs to change. Advertising and the media perpetuate the idea that it's normal for mothers to do the lion's share of the child-rearing. We hear the phrase 'hands-on dad', no-one ever utters the sentence "Oh, she's a very hands-on mum"! Even on here, you repeatedly see posts stating "He's a good dad; he helps out with the kids and the housework". He 'helps out'? Give him a fucking medal!

Aaaarrrrrrrggggghhhh . OP, you have officially Given Me The Rage.

AndNoneForGretchenWieners · 12/12/2016 00:01

tall that's a different scenario though - it must have nearly killed her to walk out but she did it for her own safety. I don't understand how anyone could abandon their children for what I see as selfish reasons - boredom, a new partner, etc - because if there has been no wrongdoing on the side of the other party then surely you would try to stay or at least sort an amicable arrangement out. Where there has been DV or the other person has done something so horrific that it's not feasible to stay then it's not the same and that isn't selfish in my view.

SemiNormal · 12/12/2016 00:05

Been there got the damn T Shirt. Yes, it sucks but I am thankful he left rather than stick around doing a half arsed job at parenting.

ItShouldHaveBeenJingleJess - do not get me started on the double standards! A single dad is like some saintly being send from God himself, he is praised and people look on in awe; A single mother is ridiculed, shamed, stigmatised and looked down upon.

WhatsGoingOnEh · 12/12/2016 00:12

Maybe it's genetic. Men who have kids/cheat/leave/have more kids/cheat/leave, etc, produce FAR more offspring than faithful fathers. Over time, the population will become largely fathered by cheating twats.

tallwivglasses · 12/12/2016 00:21

Sure Gretchen, and I know there are selfish mothers out there (and as pp have said, they get much more vitriol thrown at them than absent dads). I was just doing a quick mental survey of people I know and realised my friend was outnumbered 20 to 1

g059902 · 12/12/2016 01:26

Please forgive me @engineersthumb It is of course wrong to tarnish all men with the same brush and sorry it came across that away. I know this is not the case for every man and of course, there are women who too behave in such ways. I would be all for 50:50 custody if it worked in favor of the children, actually the ex mentioned he was having issues where he was living and felt pressured to move. As he was "missing" the children sooooooo much, i offered to move out of my house for 3 nights (I would still be actively involved with the children dinner/bedtimes/story time etc etc or even just pop in after work and see them whatever would work for them) but he declined because he didnt want to put his life on hold. He moved further away from the children and doesnt drive, and obvs in with his current GF.

In an ideal world I would love for us both to be able to be an active part of the children's lives, all aspects of it, but alas that is not the case. As it stands now, he would be happy to "have his cake and eat it", I cannot forgive the complete disregard/disrespect and utter violations to me and the children, so yes, right now, I am the one stopping that happening. I don't see why I should be put in these uncomfortable situations that i dont actually think I can manage day in day out when he couldn't even be bothered to allow the relationship/family the opportunity it deserves.

Breakups happen, understandably, and I can truly hand on heart say, I have for however many months now tried to ensure the children a: have a decent relationship and b: I am not to blame for any distance created between them. I have changed my plans/ compromised what I would like to do to suit him; taken the children to see him/waited for hours for him to show up on our days together with them/ asked him to come over when he is free to do bed times/offered him school runs/ listened to his pathetic excuses about why he is late/didnt show/didnt pay the list is endless.

My original post was purely and simple to try and understand why people/men/women/society allow this to happen and continue to do so. Are family values completely disregarded now? Is this the life we have bought children into? The world in which we "accept" is normal and "ok"?

Every fiber in my body is angry and wants to scream at this person for creating this world for the most precious things in my world, and yet i do that, I am acting crazy or im still ill....I wonder if this is the case...am i that crazy for believing and wanting that family, one of the most important gifts and probably the only reason to work or fight for anything, and here we have people just casting aside like crisp wrappers.

I cant believe how many comments I have had. As someone said earlier there is no perfect relationship. But one would hope that the person who they have chosen to lie with and vice versa, someone who has watched a baby be born, cut cords, watched breast feeding, etc etc etc would think that is worth doing something/anything for?! Apparently, this isnt the case though. And that is what I cannot understand. That stuff is personally, sacred, and from the core, true and pure. Or at least it was to me.

OP posts:
engineersthumb · 12/12/2016 06:41

g05592,
It the suggestion that "Men Leave" whereas the reasons for breakup are a lot wider than that. How many time do I read LTB on this forum? My point is that at the point of a relationship breaking down the woman usually demands to be the primary carer. 50:50 custody is usually contested and not awarded often. So its a bit of a distortion to say "Why do men feel its ok to leave".
In most cases it is a terrible wrench for a man to kicked out of the family home, have his kids effectively taken away and access to them controlled and more often than not be on less than amicable terms with the person controlling that access. It should also be remembered that most men don't just walk away. It should also be remembered that just because a father manages to find somewhere to live and god forbid another relationship that he is "has run off scot free". Far from it the time, financial and emotional impact is no less than for women.
I do understand that there are some cases where the fathers are errant but this is not the normal situation.

Thisjustinno · 12/12/2016 07:10

A friend of mine won't leave his wife (who is really quite awful to him) because he doesn't want to not see his children every day. He's miserable. I'm sure she can't be happy either and I know the kids see it too.

I've known as few couples 'stay together for the children' or because they think marriage is for life even though they're really unhappy. From what I can see, they leave sad half-lives. I'd rather be on my own than live with someone who doesn't love me.

The parent that leaves should absolutely pull their weight financially and in terms of involvement though.

I am sorry for your pain OP Flowers

jeaux90 · 12/12/2016 07:39

I know this is perhaps controversial but this is absolutely why us women should be challenging the sahm norm. Stay financially independant, work, etc because when we are left "holding the baby" which I was the impact isn't quite so devastating. I see and hear so many stories of women and kids being plunged into poverty because of the scenario the OP outlines. So whilst society no longer challenges people who walk away from their families we as women have a choice and can challenge society (men) and change the dependency.

c3pu · 12/12/2016 07:47

Having worn the shoe on both feet, I'd take being the parent with care over being a non resident parent any day of the week.

Leaving the family home does not automatically lead to a life of Riley, I can assure you of that. It was incredibly bad for my mental health seeing my kids a couple of times a week.

Angrybird123 · 12/12/2016 08:59

engineer spend just a few minutes on this board and you can find absolutely loads of fathers who have left what the woman thought was a perfectly good relationship / marriage, often for an OW or because they just felt bored / MLC etc. I think what the OP is getting at is that there is a general feeling now (amongst both sexes to be fair) that ones own immediate and personal happiness is more important than anything else and that one is justified in absolutely destroying a family that THEY helped create in order to get it. Accepting the inevitable tedium/ restriction / bad patches that go with long relationships seems now to be completely unthinkable and a perfectly acceptable reason to leave without making ANY attempt at rectifying it addressing or even just riding out the bad patch. Any yes my ex has done exactly the rewriting of history and painting me as a bitter, controlling wife who he had no choice but to leave and he adores his kids SO much that it must have been awful for him to have left. Except that he loves the idea of them, not the messy, loud, infuriating reality and constantly seeks to reduce the time he spends with them. And his partner and her family all think he is wonderful Angry

g059902 · 12/12/2016 10:20

Angrybird123 engineer that is precisely the point.
Its is clearly the common premise that "leaving" a relationship and family unit is the goal and solution rather then dedication; hard work; compromise; listening.
There are so many support networks around to assist in all sorts of family areas and yet rather then look to these support networks or networks of people around typically men, but yes some women, leave.
Someone has already suggested that most women would always seek to resolve and work on a relationship rather then the alternative which seems to me the most logically thing for all parties concerned, children and both partners. Obvs, if that still doesnt work then I think you will tend to find most of these "crazy women" would in turn be more comfortable and able to handle amicable splits and family breakups which would of course benefit the people that do actually matter here...the children.

In my view, and this is just my view and opinion building a family holds more commitment then marriage as there are little people involved and of course the extended families that have to deal with whatever both "parents" decide/not decide.

Of course relationships break down, of people will make mistakes, of course things will happen...but the solution to all of that is not to dismiss a family unit but to (where possible) work the problems.
No relationship is perfect as I have already stated, the idea is that you find someone your willing to create life with, build a home etc and also work on that relationship...the good, bad and ugly.

If there are truly no ways forward in that relationship then yes of course, rather then living unhappily and in that life of course separation is what should happen but for men to just leave (which is what I was getting at) without at first exploring this for the sake of a family is just down right abandonment.

Furthermore, it is normal to get into relationships...but not 24 hours after leaving said family home and then to have the option of living in the family home that you both created with the children that are so missed but to opt not to because of their own happiness and needs...again raises the issue who is actually focusing on these childrens needs?

OP posts: