I think I've gone and done it - told the sod to fuck right off

[ExpatTrailingSpouse]

Nervewracked - just lost my cool and told him to fuck right off. Have collected necessary documents and passports, ds birth certificate and locked myself in ds room. Stupid to do it in middle of night but when I lose it I lose it big time.

His idea of trying to make up to me that he had an affair (emotional and probably physical, who even cares) for over a year, missing our ds 2nd birthday and so on is that:
a) my life has changed so much since I found out which I should be grateful for - by this he means he sort of does a share of the parenting and I'm no longer doing 24/7 for ds as I was before I found out about the affair and that ds now goes to preschool (which company pays for since we're on expat assignment).
B) he "pays" for everything, so I should be happy I get to go on trips to see my family - aside from the fact I gave up my phd and moved away from all my friends and half my family to follow his career that he insisted he wanted to the US where I never wanted to live in the first place but I should feel fucking grateful he "pays" for me to see my family. and that if we didn't move to the states I would have my own fucking income.

Thanks for listening. Needed to rant - so much more I could say. Sitting here shaking while ds sleeps. Gonna be a long night.

Have you registered ds's birth in the UK so that he can hold dual nationality? If not, do this as a matter of urgency so that you can apply for his UK passport.

Thanks goddess - ds actually has triple nationality, including uk and got his uk passport when he was about 1.

If you're currently on a spousal visa there are other visa types to cover you while you go through a divorce so that you can be legally separated. however, until a divorce is agreed you'll be reliant upon his handouts.

also - if you don't have the right to live permanently, then you can get back to the UK, BUT you have to get his permission. Either he can give permission because he's a decent chap who wants what is best for his son, OR he can insist on going to court. They will want your son to be in the same country as his primary carer. As you will have to return to the UK at some point, then they will expect your son to go with you. A divorce court can't give you a green card, so your position of returning to the UK won't change, and you're the primary carer.

Or you can just wait until the visas run out and return to the UK, then divorce.

Even if Ex-H is dreaming of shacking up with OW and getting a green card, you're still your son's primary carer and your son is most likely to therefore end up with you. You may just have a long and painful legal process to get there.

kickass - thanks, do you happen to know the visa types? I haven't been able to find anything and the lawyer I spoke to couldn't think of anything other than student or investor visas.
I did think the primary carer thing would be an advantage, but I am also in a particularly "good ol' boy" jurisdiction in a southern conservative state ... Have been told that by lawyer, counsellor and also have seen posts from other mums on fb. If we lived 5-10 miles away we'd be in a different jurisdiction. Green card issue is in limbo - it all depends on his work.
And yes, have been mentally preparing myself for the legal side. "Luckily" my parents went through a horrible split in my teens, and I have plenty of experience in the ways things can go wrong so I think I'm better prepared than him. (Knock on wood).

also it's all a bit complicated - uk isn't H's primary citizenship either (that's why ds has three, I've got two) so while I might like to return to uk, he won't want to.

ExpatTrailingSpouse - if you are in a 'no fault' state then none of your stbx's behaviour will count at all when it comes to custody and visitation.

PLEASE get yourself a really, really good lawyer with expertise in expat divorce, custody and visitation.

You most definitely will have to go to court. You may be able to get a temporary maintenance and child support order to tide you over until the divorce is finalised. Given your visa situation, you may be able to argue for more than the legal minimum when it comes to child support because states tend not to want to add to the welfare load when a parent is able to contribute. Your alternative to financial support from ex will be welfare, food stamps, section 8 and medicaid because of your visa. However, you may not even be eligible to apply for yourself, and you won't get much in food stamps and TANF for one child.

You should contact a benefits lawyer to see what your situation might look like. You should also see an immigration lawyer to investigate your visa options (if you have any) given that your DS may well be ordered to remain in the US as long as his father is there.

I hate to say this, but if I were you I would sit on my hands until his visa runs out and wait until you're safely back in the UK before even separating. Do protracted relationship therapy. String it out as long as you possibly can.

If your ex gets a green card you will very likely be stuck in the US until DS is 18. Horrible though this advice is, I would not drive him into the arms of anyone he could use to secure permanent resident status.

VisaJourney.com to find out about your rights in USA. Forum has lots of knowledgeable people. Look into VAWA.

Basically you want to proceed as if you intend to continue living in the States to cover your future ass. It's way too easy to make a mistake now that could exclude you later.

Good luck to you.

I agree with math and, although it goes against the grain, I suggest you string him along.

"Protracted counselling" may allow you to come to the conclusion that the best chance for your marriage is for your h to find a job in another country where you can be certain that he's not seeing the ow on the sly.

I think the visa is a K-3, but it is for spouses of US citizens or green card holders. (It's intended for spouses who want to live in the US, but allows a spouse an extended stay, so could be used.) It would only apply if your Ex got a green card.
I could be wrong though.
You would probably need an immigration lawyer as well as a divorce one.
Depending which visas you are currently on, your right to stay could end the moment that the two of you separate. So then you end up in the tricky situation of being an illegal immigrant, but not able to take your son with you to the UK. That is a total nightmare (if you leave your son with his father, father then becomes the main carer, and you lose a significant amount of rights) so really find out about the visa situation first.

You could also contact the nearest UK embassy and ask them for some advice, e.g. do they have any recommended lawyers.

list here

I do know one real-life example of a similar thing, and the mother and child do now live back in the UK. It's someone else's story, so I don't want to give details here, but it is possible to get this resolved. Being in an old fashioned state might actually work for you, in that there will be an assumption that it's in the child's best interests to stay with his mother.

math and others - thank you for your replies and thoughts on this.

H is on a work visa, his company may or may not start the process of applying for a green card for him in the next year. OW doesn't really come into it yet as a) he can't marry her if he's still married to me, and b) even if i was slow in recognizing what was going on, i don't read the OW thing as being something he wants/wanted long term. from what i've read, i'm fine on my current visa but would need to leave the country before the final decree, if that's the route we go.

There are a couple of other things going on where if he wants to be difficult about this, i can make his work life here also very difficult and potentially lead to him being removed from here as well... so if it comes down to it, i have no hesitation to go there.

also, pretty sure we are in an "at fault" state - lawyer i spoke to told me that in her opinion, even though i don't have proof that they physically DTD, what evidence i do have would probably be enough to convince a judge.

H is now supposedly remorseful, flowers, apology (but not for anything specific), etc... as a few of you have said, i do now need to bide my time until the right moment.

Please re-read this from KickAss:
Depending which visas you are currently on, your right to stay could end the moment that the two of you separate. So then you end up in the tricky situation of being an illegal immigrant, but not able to take your son with you to the UK. That is a total nightmare (if you leave your son with his father, father then becomes the main carer, and you lose a significant amount of rights) so really find out about the visa situation first.

The state you are in may decide that your American citizen DS needs to stay in the US with his father, who may secure a green card within the next year (your ex securing a green card is your worst possible nightmare therefore).

You otoh, with no green card and no prospect of work and with your ties to the visa holder severed via divorce, are in jeopardy of being forced to leave your DS behind and return to the UK alone if you divorce. This is your main problem.

Forget the OW and how your ex has betrayed you. Or at least put it at the back of your mind/deal with it in counselling. The only significance the OW has is the possibility that exH could get a green card through marriage to her. He can only do that if he is divorced from you. Fault or no fault, this is a he said /she said situation and you would really need solid evidence of incredibly bad character to influence a judge where custody and visitation go.

You should only consider divorce if you can stay in the US with enough financial support to make a decent standard of living possible, or with a visa that will allow you to work.

stuckinny - Also don't rule out moving back if it's something you're interested in. I have it written into my separation agreement, and hence divorce, that I can leave the US with DS permanently once I have given him written notice.

Do you remember what the wording was for the agreement? i.e. something like "I, father of DC, give permission for mother of DC to leave US with written notice"?

that should at least read "give permission for -mother of- DC to leave US to take up residence in..."

Duh, I meant remove the "mother of", my strikethrough didn't work.

atenco - haha, obviously i was missing a few words in my post also.

have stepped back a bit and trying to do nothing to rock the boat for now. normally i'm a very rational, not very emotional type of person, and i would have planned all this out better. but when i lose my temper, i lose it big time.

his lame "apology" letter almost goes so far as to say we can go to country C (where we all have citizenship and is his primary citizenship) - so as soon as i get something in writing saying we can go, we will be off. my dad is prepared to drive down to come and get us, etc.

also, to underline how "sorry" he is, he has now started moving money around into his own individual accounts. in principle i don't have an issue with this, but it just shows he has no understanding of why i might have done it on my end (i.e. i'm the one with no income etc, so if he cut me off, i'd be absolutely screwed).

just kicking myself thinking of that quote - "when someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time". why do we give them so many chances?

to everyone who says try and hang in - i will as long as i can, but it's pretty soul destroying in a way to have to lie and keep up the pretence for almost everyone in my day to day life. only 3 people who are physically here know what's going on, and none know how bad it's been. the rest i can't/couldn't tell since they're all work spouses too. my sis and dad know, but couldn't even tell my mum as she would go absolutely ballistic - friend thought i was joking when i said if she knew, she might try to hurt him.

sorry for rambling, it's nice to get it off my chest.

so find out info about his other accounts - it all gets included as joint marital assets, no matter where it is.

Spend your days getting together all the info, then try seeing a solicitor to find out where you stand. It will probably cost you around $500 for a consultation - would you be able to do that? And it would only cover the divorce part of it (which can vary by county, not just state) and won't even begin on the whole visa/repatriation issues.

Sorry - just realized how lacking in empathy I sound. I'm just trying to help with info, but I know this must feel awful for you. I'm also a trailing spouse, and my marriage nearly went tits up as well. then we got green cards, I could work, and life became a whole lot better.

Our problem didn't even involve an OW - just the crappy imbalance of him having a job & independence, and me being a SAHM with no friends etc so feeling like I had no life. It sucks, and it's hard to explain how it feels when you've left behind your whole life to find that suddenly you have nothing but your partner's life is just fine.

kickass - don't worry, i've got a spreadsheet going and i'm tracking all the transfers as they happen (he didn't get on the ball til after me). there are a couple of accounts i may not have specific details for, but i know they exist (i.e. personal retirement accoutns etc).

have seen a lawyer a couple months ago - next step really would be to retain them. i've sent them an email to find out how that works.

as PPs have said, i could try and hang on for a green card... but i don't think i have the patience to last, and don't believe he'll be strung along for that long either. his work hasn't even told him if they'll be doing the green card for him anyway, so getting one is all speculation for now. plus from others experience, it's going to be 1-2 years at least til an actual green card in hand. (how long did it take to get yours?)

Our problem didn't even involve an OW - just the crappy imbalance of him having a job & independence, and me being a SAHM with no friends etc so feeling like I had no life. It sucks, and it's hard to explain how it feels when you've left behind your whole life to find that suddenly you have nothing but your partner's life is just fine.

^^ exactly this, only with his coworker OW (who is me if i hadn't given it all up for him, right down to looks) thrown in...

How you doing expat? X

littleredpear - thank you for thinking of me.

i am spending far too much time on mumsnet, wondering how i didn't start reading this site long before last year, and wondering if i would have recognized all the warning signs a long time ago and either not married this person or gotten out before DS or sooner...

i need to let the dust settle for a bit and see if he is going to back off. he already has to some extent, but i'm done with giving more chances.

just to let off a little steam, here's some things he's said/done in counselling/at home/both that said on their own as a one off maybe wouldn't bother me as much, but in my opinion together show a complete lack of consideration for me or our family:

• "i only lied to you twice about being with OW when i said i was at work". this was justified in his mind, because most of his outings with OW were on work trips, and not during working hours 9-5 at their respective offices (believe me, many more than 2).
• "i think you've got the wrong idea here, this wasn't some hot steamy affair" (his first admitted meeting with her was a day and a half in paris, and it all culminated in a 2 week vacation all over europe by themselves )
• when i thought things were going a lot better, we dtd 3 times (stupid me). he started arguing with me in front of the counsellor that it wasn't 3 times.
• so called reasoning for going away with OW was because he wanted a "fun adventure". planning family trip recently, gave him very specific parameters (due to previously planned other trip and considerations for DS etc), which he completely ignored because "he wanted a fun adventure".
• he forgot to add DS to dental insurance and vision insurance for all of us. Found out 3 weeks later when i asked him about something sort of related and he confessed. he said he'd already called to see if they'd accept late submission and they flat out said no. Fine that he forgot. Not fine that he didn't bother telling me, then in counselling tried to turn it around and say that he had volunteered the information to me! then when i said absolutely not, he then tried to say that he didn't tell me because he was waiting to see if they would take a late submission, even though he had already said he'd done that and gotten no as an answer. i cannot count the number of times he made me doubt my recollections of things so he could get out of trouble for making a mistake.

these all just in last couple months and by far not the only ones. so many many many more over the past year and a half, and he wonders why i can't think of reasons to stay or why i'm still pissed off? or am i totally crazy and my expectations are way too high?

The lying and back-tracking are the big problems, aren't they? It shows that he really doesn't care about you, only himself, and he'd rather leave you going crazy than to admit to his own mistake.

We came on H visas - DH on H1B, which meant his co. had to be the ones to apply (and pay for) the green cards. There are various stages of applying, and we did all 3 at once rather than consecutively (which could have wasted money if one stage got turned down, as we''d then need to re-apply). Usually these applications take 6 months to 2 years, but we got green cards in 6 weeks . We applied through Detroit just as the car industries crashed and I suspect we were the only people moving TO Michigan at the time. When we went for fingerprinting there was a processing room big enough for hundreds of people to be done, and we were the only people there. The workers were literally sitting around waiting.

I think that you're better off doing this before your H gets a green card. The courts will have less reason to see him as being a resident if he's on a short-term visa. But, again, I could be wrong.

Yes, that's basically what it's come down to - my realization that his complete lack of consideration/disrespect really isn't changing significantly and that's not what I'm going to put up with for the rest of my life. In some ways OW was just a wake up call or the last straw.

Six weeks would be fantastic but I definitely don't think that's the current wait time. I looked at it briefly and I don't think he's eligible to apply on his own. So his routes are marrying a US citizen or the company doing it. If we are together - the company will apply for mine concurrently ie I will get mine at the same time as his, so if that actually happened I would be fine.

I'm not too fussed either way - I've calmed down enough that nothing is being filed tomorrow or Monday, I've done what I can in terms of paperwork etc, and I'm going to wait a little and see what his attitude is over the weekend (we've hardly spoken at all since the big row, other than for him to pretend everything is fine). Timing is poor as I was trying to hold on til at least after Xmas for ds' sake (first year he's been super excited about Christmas).

Aw Expat I know nothing of visas so I can't help there.

We've crossed paths a lot this year and mnet has been a lifeline in a sea of shit for me too.

I can't tell you what to do, but your posts are articulate, funny, touching but also unbelievably shit. Your DH is a cock of the highest order.

I hope you find a way out of this. He does not deserve the lovely intelligent woman you are. He's cock snot.

I wish we all had a magic solution. I realise this is 'just words on a page' but you deserve far better than that waste of space.

I am thinking of you and hoping you turn around soon and think, fuck it he's outta here and I'm good. Because you will be good

Wrt your examples of his lies and also your reference to him moving money around, not including your DS on the health and medical insurance, and accounts you have to track down, emotional manipulation, maybe look at 'Q4' here:
www.uscis.gov/news/fact-sheets/information-legal-rights-available-immigrant-victims-domestic-violence-united-states-and-facts-about-immigrating-marriage-based-visa-fact-sheet