Please or to access all these features

Add post

Watch this thread

Save thread

Start a new thread

Flip thread

Hide thread

My feed

Active Unanswered threads

Getting started FAQ's

Unanswered threads Acronyms Talk guidelines

Hide shortcut buttons

Talk

Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Flip

1 2 3 4 5

Original poster

Is being cajoled into having sex rape?

108 replies

ThomasRichard · 06/12/2016 20:26

I'm just looking for opinions as I think through what happened in my marriage (now over). I don't want to minimise anyone's experiences of sexual assault but I was wondering whether what exH used to do was rape or not so I have it straight in my own head. He was emotionally and financially abusive and as a result I didn't feel like sleeping with him very often, although still at least once a week. He didn't think this was enough and used to get into bed when I was trying to read a book or go to sleep and cajole me into having sex with him. It didn't matter what I said, he just wouldn't leave me alone unless I either gave in and had sex just to stop the nagging (which was the outcome most of the time) or snapped at him, at which point he'd sulk and go on about how I wasn't being fair. I didn't want to have sex on any of those occasions but was my 'giving in' consent, even though I'd made it clear that I didn't want to?

OP posts:

MrsBertBibby · 07/12/2016 13:32

And how about a violently coerced wife in 1o90, trifle? Raped, or not raped?

BumDNC · 07/12/2016 13:40

I feel sad in a way that there are still people who feels it's more damaging to believe or be told you might have experienced rape than to be told you certainly didn't.
Those on the side of 'yes it's possible' have the OP's feelings in mind. Clearly she's traumatised to some degree and this could affect her deeply for years
The naysayers are obsessed with whether it would merit a criminal conviction. No regard for her emotions, and also knowing only a tiny percentage of rape and assault cases ever amount in a conviction

To take away someone's feelings and invalidate them is to compound a sexual assault, you are far more likely to see that victim struggle with silent feelings than if you let them own and experience their feelings, more likely they will be free of them.

Teenage me heard all this from my parents years ago. If you weren't in the room and were not in that position you have NO RIGHT to tell a woman what happened to her - she knows. Yes OP was exploring the terminology because up until now it's been confusing

The word rape doesn't belong to the fucking patriarchy does it?
Are you only allowed to use it under special circumstances? With a laminated sentencing order?

Trifleorbust · 07/12/2016 13:41

MrsBertBibby: By our modern law, of course. By their law, no. By my moral judgement, yes. By someone else's moral judgement, I can't say. If I had been asked at the time I would have had to say, "I believe the law to be wrong but it isn't rape, legally."

In this case I don't believe the law to be wrong. It is ethical for the law to distinguish between sex under coercion and sex that someone didn't particularly feel like having, but was nonetheless able to consent to.

Trifleorbust · 07/12/2016 13:42

BumDNC: I have every regard for her feelings. I also have a regard for truth.

Batteriesallgone · 07/12/2016 13:50

Society defines the law. It's not like the law came down to us on stone tablets, predetermined.

Saying that only the law can tell me what rape is, implies I and every other citizen has no hand in the change and development of the law. Which is clearly bollocks.

Marital rape didn't become illegal because a group of judges got together in a room and said well it's not really on, is it? Let's get the stone tablets out.

It became illegal because people said this is not right, this is rape, the law must be changed, and it was.

BumDNC · 07/12/2016 13:52

You aren't in charge of truth either so that's a very silly argument.
How can you know the truth from a few posts?

The 'truth' is that OP had a very bad horrible experience and she wants to talk about it. She wants to understand it and process it. You don't need to bang about quoting the law and truth because 1. She hasn't employed you as her lawyer and 2. You cannot know any truth even if you were. Wouldn't you have to act in her best interests?
You sound more like the prosecution IMO and I do not wish to have any more robotic emotionless information exchanges with you any longer.

Sorry OP, I really hope you are ok. Am happy to talk to you any time. You do need time to process how you feel about intimacy now. You can probably see from this thread that labels don't matter: it happened to you and that's all that really matters

MrsBertBibby · 07/12/2016 13:54

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Trifleorbust · 07/12/2016 13:57

MrsBertBibby: I don't really care how offensive you want to get. I do have regard for the OP's feelings and do not want her to believe that she was raped when what happened clearly doesn't amount to that. I think you are irresponsible to encourage her to think otherwise.

Trifleorbust · 07/12/2016 13:58

BumDNC: That's fine, I won't play to you again.

Don't forget, the OP asked. You are unable to deal with opinions conflicting with with your own but that may not be the case for her.

Trifleorbust · 07/12/2016 14:00

*reply to you

LostMySanityCanIBorrowYours · 07/12/2016 14:01

I hope you're doing okay OP?

I get why you vanished. I would've too in your shoes facing some of these replies. It doesn't matter what 'truth' other posters get hung up on. What matter is you and how you are feeling.

Your feelings are not wrong and there are support services in place, such as Rape Crisis who will help you deal with those feelings, regardless of what the law says.

The law is an ass anyway

Batteriesallgone · 07/12/2016 14:03

Why don't you want her to believe she was raped?

What possible harm can it do you?

BumDNC · 07/12/2016 14:04

On what basis? That the consequences of saying no were not horrific enough? How horrific do the consequences have to be to say you made you one choice or you were coerced? Clearly OP knew that there would be some kind of consequence, it does not have to be violent to be abusive. So he presented her with this option have sex with me or face this set of consequences

Now at that time you would probably weigh this up:

*Kids asleep - Scared of waking them up
*Scared of being held down/hurt
*Scared he might withhold money from you for periods of time
*Concerned about his mood on the kids if you say no - possible he could take it out on them?
*He belittles and taunts you - you want this to stop
*He's groping you and you are tired and want to sleep but he won't stop
*He starts gaslighting and confusing you, you start to lose your grip on your own thoughts and rational actions maybe I am an awful wife...

Trifleorbust · 07/12/2016 14:06

Batteriesallgone: It does no harm whatsoever to me. She can believe what she likes and so can everyone else on the thread. This is a comment forum and she asked for opinions. That includes opinions, I assume, that conflict with yours.

charliethebear · 07/12/2016 14:33

I'm sorry this happened to you OP in my mind this was rape.
In terms of enthusiastic consent, I believe this is just basic consent as its the only way a man can know that you really want to have sex with him. If you were a plastic surgeon and someone wanted a boob job for example you wouldn't give them a boob job unless you were completely certain that they wanted a boob job. The same with sex, enthusiastic consent is required because its the only way a man can know if the woman truly wants sex. If she didn't give enthusiastic consent, chances are she didn't want it and it wouldn't be true consent.
In this case I would say the OP definitely didn't give true consent, if a doctor pestered you to have a medical procedure and you said yes and signed all the paperwork that would still not be consent for the procedure. Same with sex.

toptoe · 07/12/2016 14:41

Yes, because he knew you didn't want to and badgered you until you did it. On may occasions. I couldn't imagine badgering someone to have sex or I'd row with them or ignore them if they didn't give in. It's not something a kind individual does. It is a violation of your body because you were clear you didn't want to and only did it to prevent a row or get some sleep.

Original poster

ThomasRichard · 07/12/2016 14:59

Hello you lot :o I'm not hiding, just at work. Thanks for all your input.

Let me really clear: I'm not looking to get him prosecuted. I just want to understand and be very clear in my own mind that what happened to me was wrong. It wasn't me withholding sex from him as a punishment, or being sulky, or a bad wife. It was him forcing me to have sex when I didn't want to.

That's miles different from me not really feeling in the mood but telling him that I'd be open to persuasion. I said no, meant no, repeatedly and he forced me into a position where I had to say a 'yes' that I didn't mean, albeit without using physical violence. I want to know if that was rape. It's quite eye-opening for me that I can't find any definitive answer and that there are so many interpretations on this thread.

OP posts:

Trifleorbust · 07/12/2016 15:09

Welcome back, OP. I just want to clarify that I have no agenda here and only wanted to reply to your question. What happened to you was definitely wrong. No question in my mind about that. Whether he raped you rests on whether you were able to consent or not. You use the word 'force', so it seems like you believe not. Perhaps the answers you are seeking can be found through seeking counselling. Good luck.

EvenTheWind · 07/12/2016 15:10

I am clear that you were raped

Original poster

ThomasRichard · 07/12/2016 15:10

Thankyou trifle. I got what you were saying and appreciate your thoughts.

OP posts:

EvenTheWind · 07/12/2016 15:11

And everyone posting thinks what happened was wrong, op, so please blame him and not yourself

hopskip123 · 07/12/2016 15:24

No I dont think this is rape as you (reluctantly) consented. It is disgusting and abusive though

frieda909 · 07/12/2016 15:57

Hi OP, I have been wrestling with the same thoughts for a couple of years, so I think I understand exactly where you're coming from. It's not really about trying to find a legal definition, it's about trying to process a really shitty thing that happened and make sense of it for yourself.

I read that checklist you posted earlier with such horror, because it nearly all applied in my case too. My ex would constantly claim to be sexually frustrated as an excuse for being bad-tempered and abusive towards me. We're not talking about months of drought here, either - if we didn't do it literally every single day then he would get in a mood with me and say that because he hadn't had his 'release' that day he was going to be in a bad mood until we did it. He would always make a big song and dance about wanting my consent, but his idea of 'consent' was basically to nag, sulk and guilt trip me until I gave in.

Of course this meant that 90% of the time I'd have a face like thunder during sex, because I'd been made to do something I didn't want to do. Then he'd complain about that too, and tell me that I just wasn't a very sexual person. He refused to believe that I actually had any kind of real sex drive and insisted that we only did it to keep him happy. After we broke up I was surprised to find that actually yes, I do really enjoy sex! Just not with awful human beings who make me do it at their every whim.

SandyY2K · 07/12/2016 23:55

This happened to me many years ago. I said no time and again and even worse it was my time of the month. He felt my pad and angrily said 'what's this? '.

I was coerced into it and it was horrible and painful. Didn't enjoy it one bit... almost a foot long he was. I left and never looked back. I felt violated, but I wouldn't have said it was rape at the time ... but i do wonder. I blamed myself.

I wish I'd stuck to saying no instead and of an exasperated 'okay then'. He wore me down.

It was a horrible experience and I try to block it out of my memory. I was young and naive back then.

I'm sorry you faced this repeatedly. It's horrible.

restlessat50 · 08/12/2016 00:44

I have read with much interest all the threads in this discussion as i posted over a year ago a very similar analogy following a horrible incident with my husband where by I consented to sex against my better judgement as he pestered and pleaded with me in apathetic way after I said no (it was the week his Dad died v. tired and wasn't at all in mood). He ended up forcing himself on me (which he has always denied) and something inside snapped. I had for a long time (years) thought things weren't quite right between us and often dreaded sat night (sex night). Since that incident he has been in another bedroom (18 months). I don't want a physical relationship anymore but he won't let go. I also am not sure if what happened was abusive but I do know his behaviour was wrong and I should not like you been made to feel pressurised or guilt ridden for saying no. A loving relationship is about respect, value, kindness I hope I will have that again one day.
We have been in counselling for a year I don't feel any different but he just won't let go which is making it hard to leave. I am pleased you are not with ABH now. How did you find the strength to leave

Flip

1 2 3 4 5

Swipe left for the next trending thread