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Original poster

Is being cajoled into having sex rape?

108 replies

ThomasRichard · 06/12/2016 20:26

I'm just looking for opinions as I think through what happened in my marriage (now over). I don't want to minimise anyone's experiences of sexual assault but I was wondering whether what exH used to do was rape or not so I have it straight in my own head. He was emotionally and financially abusive and as a result I didn't feel like sleeping with him very often, although still at least once a week. He didn't think this was enough and used to get into bed when I was trying to read a book or go to sleep and cajole me into having sex with him. It didn't matter what I said, he just wouldn't leave me alone unless I either gave in and had sex just to stop the nagging (which was the outcome most of the time) or snapped at him, at which point he'd sulk and go on about how I wasn't being fair. I didn't want to have sex on any of those occasions but was my 'giving in' consent, even though I'd made it clear that I didn't want to?

OP posts:
BumDNC · 07/12/2016 12:10

On that basis all rape accused found not guilty on legal technicalities were not raped.

Unreported rapes were not rapes.

Rape is not something that belongs to men, or in the hands of a judge. It's something that happens to you and it is how it made you feel.
Some situations are clearly more 'unenthusiastic sex with your partner' but this is not what OP describes. We aren't informing her anything other than its ok to feel that you were violated and this was not your fault and it wasn't normal and work through that
If it feels like rape to the victim then telling them it isn't is basically taking away even more of their consent and control over their own feelings and emotions

Had sex you didn't want to - well... what she should have tried harder to fight him off?

MrsBertBibby · 07/12/2016 12:13

Furthermore, even legally, just because a man wasn't prosecuted for rape of his partner, the family courts can still find as a fact that he did so, within (for instance) proceedings about the children.

Roastturnip · 07/12/2016 12:16

I can empathise OP. I remember one very distinct occasion when dh was trying to get me to do something I didn't want to do. He kept on and on and on until I agreed. When I told him how I upset that he hadn't taken no for an answer, he made it all about himself and how he didn't feel he could talk to me about what he wanted any more. Confused. Its a horrid, horrid feeling Flowers

EvenTheWind · 07/12/2016 12:19

Op I am sorry that you were coerced into sex. It was rape.

2rebeccA that is an appalling post

WannaBe · 07/12/2016 12:20

But you can't simply say that if a woman feels she was raped then it was rape. There's obviously no question here that the man was an abusive bastard, but that doesn't make him a rapist just because someone said that if she feels he was then he was.

Where do you draw the line? If someone runs over a child and it was accidental or even that they were on their phone or not paying proper attention and that child dies does it equal murder because the family say it is? Of course it doesn't.

And saying something isn't rape doesn't mean that she should have tried harder not to give in to him, it merely makes a distinction between abuse/coercion and rape itself.

Trifleorbust · 07/12/2016 12:21

BumDNC: You can acknowledge someone's feelings without peddling misleading information. She felt obliged, pressured, nagged? Inappropriate, yes. Rape, no.

And your point about legal technicalities is irrelevant. Even in a textbook trial, even if every moment of an interaction where someone nagged someone else for sex and then they gave in was recorded on video and presented to a jury, in the absence of a coercive factor, there would be no case. No laws would have been broken.

There was no need to fight him off. He wasn't forcing her to do anything.

My (amazing) husband could nag me for sex all day (he wouldn't because he respects me) and I could just tell him no. If I told him "Oh go on then" because I was bored of listening to him and I then accused him of rape, I would be making a false accusation because there was no force, overt threat of force or implicit threat of force. I would just have given in to his nagging.

BumDNC · 07/12/2016 12:30

Because every single sexual assault is a different experience you cannot use case studies against each and every single person. Many people including myself regard rape as a man having sex or sexual acts with you without your consent. How many times are you supposed to give consent before it's an assault,or a rape? Are there special words you must say? What if you are scared and say nothing? This is why rape is personal to the person who experiences it and not a bloody book or some internet stranger who wasn't in the room with you when it happened. It happened to me/others. That's how it feels in my head. It was taken without my consent. I never said yes and I clearly said no. But rather than get hurt I let it happen. Just as being cajoled into sex you allow it to happen to get the person away from you faster And the experience over. Trapping a woman in a room, holding her o mr manipulating her with emotional blackmail is to each and every individual woman absolutely what they feel in their own mind. You shouldn't try to take it away from them because that is blaming the 'victim' for putting themselves in the position and not being strong enough to resist

If I was ever attacked or raped again I wouldn't fight. I want to live I don't want to die defending myself. I wouldn't fight them off and put myself at more risk of harm. I have kids. I didn't want to die then. But would that then not be rape?

Trifleorbust · 07/12/2016 12:34

BumDNC: I am not claiming otherwise. But the OP asked. And what something is matters - you cannot just take account of how it felt if your feelings are at odds with the facts.

Obviously if you are afraid for your life it is coercive, ergo rape.

BumDNC · 07/12/2016 12:34

Having been in other sexual relationships where I have been nagged for sex and given in it is a ridiculous notion that I would feel that was rape. OP was not taking about that IMO, she was talking about actively giving no consent repeatedly but being left backed into a situation she couldn't say no to.

But as neither of us were in the room you cannot say it wasn't rape just as I said it could have been (I have not definately told OP it was rape but I feel that women are allowed to have these feelings if they want to)

BumDNC · 07/12/2016 12:36

Most rape cases ARE at odds with feelings and facts!
The men don't feel it was rape
The woman feels it was rape
Evidence needs to prove it
Often the woman loses and she is left with her feelings that feel invalidated by a judge she has never met

Which is why rapes aren't reported

Trifleorbust · 07/12/2016 12:36

BumDNC: But the OP asked, Bum. She wants people who weren't in the room to say what they believe it sounds like. I wouldn't say unless I was asked.

Trifleorbust · 07/12/2016 12:38

BumDNC: Yes, of course many (most?) rapists don't think they are rapists. That doesn't mean they aren't. In this case, from what the OP has said, the evidence would not sustain any case that any laws were broken. Unless information about coercive factors has been missed out, that is.

WritersBlockk · 07/12/2016 12:38

No.

LostMySanityCanIBorrowYours · 07/12/2016 12:39

I wonder if the people saying OP gave consent for an easy life/to stop the nagging have ever been in EA relationship?

It's not always that simple. I would say no to my ex sometimes. Sometimes it wasn't an option because he wouldn't allow it to be an option. He wouldn't force himself on me or subject me violence (beyond the act of rape) but he wouldn't stop 'nagging' until I either stopped saying no or 'gave in'.

In no way is that consent.

Imagine being trapped in a room with someone constantly touching you, despite you repeatedly asking them to stop, constantly asking for sex, 'explaining' how they 'need' it, telling you over and over and over that you are not normal, normal people don't say no to their partners. They go on and on and on, when all you want is for it stop.

Not saying no after an hour or so (or sometimes days) of this is not consent. Saying 'go on then' or rolling over is not consent.

These 'men' know what they are doing. They know the woman in question does not want sex and they take it anyway. Do not fool yourselves that are poor menz being wrongly accused of rape. They are rapists and abusers.

MrsBertBibby · 07/12/2016 12:40

Trifle, are you quite sure it isn't you that is "peddling false information"?

Here's the CPS guidelines.

www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/rape_and_sexual_offences/consent/#a03

Take a look at what it says about consent.

"Assuming that the complainant had both the freedom and capacity to consent, the crucial question is whether the complainant agrees to the activity by choice."

Agreeing by choice is not the same as giving in so you can then go to sleep, because the alternative is endless nagging. Especially in a relationship where the power balance is already skewed by ongoing emotional abuse.

Why is it so important to you to deny people the right to call what happened to them by its name?

BumDNC · 07/12/2016 12:42

If she feels it is, she is allowed to feel that way. She's exploring it - we don't have the details. But the fact she posted asking means she is deeply questioning something traumatic that happened to her, not once but multiple times.

Just saying 'no' and not exploring it further is absoutely ridiculous and offensive to victims of coercive assaults who already have to live with it.
This is why men get away with doing it. Because women feel obliged and society lets fellow women down

Batteriesallgone · 07/12/2016 12:44

People can consent to all sorts of things they very definitely do not want to do and are not enthusiastic about. Anything from putting out the rubbish or cleaning the toilet all the way to turning the life support off

What? How is that relevant? Sex is not a chore or a decision that needs to be made. In the absence of thinking about sex, it doesn't happen. And nobody dies, in fact nothing bad happens.

I don't understand this mindset of sex is a chore, sex is inevitable, sex is something people need. It's a very controlling dynamic.

Sex is an act for which consent has to come from within, forcing yourself because you know you're ovulating is a world away from doing it because you've been nagged. One is an independent personal choice, the other is not.

BumDNC · 07/12/2016 12:45

And keep getting tied up in the law - the law is ever evolving too, and the law doesn't allow for feelings which is why for rape and assault victims it is such a horrific experience. Bringing 'the law' into things to prove a point does the total opposite. The law is letting thousands of women, millions across continents down every single day

MrsBertBibby · 07/12/2016 12:49

Indeed, Bum. I'll put the point again. If I told you that in 1990, my husband physically forced me to have sex with him, would you say he hadn't raped me? Would your answer be different if I said oh hang on, no, that was in 1992?

Big difference to his chances of conviction, but none to how it felt to me.

JAPAB · 07/12/2016 12:55

Batteriesallgone so you are taking the view that consent has a different meaning in sex than it does in other arenas of life. In other arenas such as chores or medical situations, there is no need for enthusiasm because there the word essentially just means "agreement". In sex consent means "enthusiastic agreement". Fair enough. I don't think the current law agrees though. I see nothing in the statutory definition of consent which talks about enthusiasm.

EvenTheWind · 07/12/2016 12:56

OP hasn't asked about her chances of a criminal conviction anyway, trifle et al!

Batteriesallgone · 07/12/2016 13:01

If I get in a plane to go skydiving, all equipped, and then at the jump point change my mind but am pushed out - am I right to feel violated? Was getting in the plane sufficient consent? Signing all the safety forms? If the instructor has reasonable belief that I agreed to skydiving does that have any fucking relevance to the fact I CHANGED MY MIND AND HE PUSHED ME OUT OF THE PLANE, THE BASTARD.

Plus sex isn't something you consent to and then go off into seperate rooms. Nor is it one thrust then ejaculation then over. There is a process to sex, a duration, and any man able to sustain an erection when knowingly having sex with an unwilling partner screams rapist to me.

LostMySanityCanIBorrowYours · 07/12/2016 13:01

Whether he or she was in a position to make that choice freely, and was not constrained in any way. Assuming that the complainant had both the freedom and capacity to consent, the crucial question is whether the complainant agrees to the activity by choice

Up there ^ that's law, that is the definition of consent in todays law.

OP did not make the choice freely. OP made the choice under coersion. That, in the eyes of the law, is not consent.

Does OP have any chance of a conviction? No, but nor do most rape survivors. Does that mean she wasn't raped? No.

Is it okay for OP to discuss this without being bashed around the head with the law and having her feelings invalidated? Apparently not Sad

Trifleorbust · 07/12/2016 13:19

MrsBertBibby: I have a lot of sympathy for the OP but yes, I am absolutely sure this case would have no legal merit. She had a choice.

Trifleorbust · 07/12/2016 13:20

EvenTheWind: I know that. She asked whether it was rape. That is a legally defined term. With every sympathy in the world for her, I am not going to apologise for telling the truth when asked.

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