I need someone to believe me

[Wilhamenawonka]

This is about abuse. Not sexual financial or physical or even verbal in ways that are generally understood.

It was covert passive aggressive abuse over 17 years and i finally got him to leave 20 months ago. I now know that it involved all the above but so subtly that even now it feels like a fog trying to penetrate it.

Although I know intellectually that it was abuse it's only This week that I've started to get it emotionally and now I'm broken.

I'll never be in another relationship because i can't trust myself to stay safe and also i have vaginismus which ideveloped due to his approach to sex.
Every day more and more things hit me and break my heart all over again.

The thing is that i can't even give examples because I'm so scared of people not getting it and making me question myself again.

I'll never stop questioning if it was all my fault. I'm broken.

Please say you believe me because he is such a master at subtle passive aggressive abuse no one (except my counsellor and close friend) would ever get it.
I'm not a drama queen making this up but thats what I've been telling myself for years.

I feel sick all the time and just need to get it out.

PrincessLeia, that really does sound crazy-making. Not grown up at all.

As this relationship I am in comes to an end, although I am not actually interested in men or relationships, my libido is waking up in an entirely theoretical way (as if it was scared to come out when the man I was supposed to be using it on was him!) and I realise that what killed it was just this feeling of everything being a chore. When I was younger, sex was filed in the "fun" category along with things like going to parties and days out. One of the things that this relationship (and having children, and normal life realistically) has done is just suck the fun out of every single thing, because every damn thing is fraught with responsibility, chores, and things that can go wrong. When I first started seeing him, even then, I had misgivings about how pathetic he was about things like mingling at parties (really painful awkwardness, a couple of embarrassing incidents for me and when not actively embarrassing, a huge stress as I have to take care of him and his blatant lack of enjoyment) and even things like talking to waiters. I'm sorry to realise that I have this blatantly unreconstructed streak but I am finding that it just isn't sexy to have to take control of everything all the time and that his wetness makes him really feel like not a man.]

I did really fancy him early on - we had good times, good conversation, things led naturally into the bedroom - but he's never been really good at it. And again, that is one of the things that I have always silently agreed was definitely my fault

And it is really not sexy to find little heaps of untidiness in every single room you come into. I actually am going to turn the gender stereotyping on its head now and say that real men tidy up. "I'm holding out for a hero" in my head is being sung about a man who is "fresh from the fight" - the fight being tidying out the utility room

Wilhelmina I believe you too. I've seen so many threads here it would be impossible not to. Strength and happiness to you. You'll get there.

Those links are very useful MsPrincess, thank you. So many people are expressing how they too have experienced what Wilhelmina brought up in this thread.

maudlin avoiding male dominance. Check

pippi no way to make it work. Check

princess I've thought hard how to respond to your post because everysituation is different. Mine also listened and tried to make things better - but for him listening meant me telling him how he could hurt me and make it look more innocent. He used the language of therapy to bamboozle me even more into thinking he got it while behaving the same. I truly hope your situation is different.
You had the power taken away from you. I had it all given to me. ..as a power play. They are so subtle and what you said about guilt and them not having any, because after all they're just trying to do the right thing aren't they

narcs please can you explain about not going for anything and access. I think i understand but not completely.

maudlin sex. Ah yes. sex and sexiness and man boy child and never the twain shall meet.
Now picture a Christian virgin who had been taught that sex was wrong by a rather odd mother who gets together with a pa victim man child who wants to be looked after. It wasn't pretty.
And of course until two days ago i blamed my own shyness for everything. Poor guy for having to put up with someone so fridgid.
It never occurred that maybe HE had a part to play in making our sex life work.
I cried myself to sleep for years because i was so f*d up (ironic that) and he never once did a single thing to help. Not even something as simple as reassuring me when we got intimate so i could feel more confident.
To me right now that's the cruelest thing of all.

That is so sad WIl.

One worry with Christianity, is that although on the one hand it can definitely be a wonderful thing, the idea that you must always forgive someone, turn the other cheek, look at the beam in your own eye etc can mean going for years and years taking too much blame and not asking for change - at least I have found that in my life with this sort of situation. I wonder if that could possibly have been contributing to how you blamed yourself? He used the language of therapy to bamboozle me even more into thinking he got it while behaving the same Was your DH like Mr Sensitive in the Lundy Bancroft profiles MsPrincess sent?

Yes, Maudlin about the sex and man child, and feeling like an ugly harridan, shrew, 'Mum' doesn't help either. It's good you feel yourself existing as your real self again.

Of course it's partly why i blamed myself. Plus female socialization about being nice, learning to ' buy' friendship by being kind because of being bullied and excluded, an aggressive father and a victim pa mother. Perfect storm really.
I missed the bit in the commandment where you are instructed to love others as you love yourself. I was ripe for that type of relationship.

I missed the bit in the commandment where you are instructed to love others as you love yourself
You are absolutely right, that is the fundamental part that has to come first. I missed that too, and that it is the opposite of selfish to start with yourself.

I believe you

I can't read the abuser profiles because I'm pretty much all of them.
It's like I've said before, this type of abuse (and i don't feel right using that word because ' obviously' It wasn't) turns all the normal rules upside down and confuses/scares me

Haven't posted in a while but this thread struck a chord. Hope its helpful to OP and others should maybe be a sticky as is an excellent thread.
Broken up with mine but still trying to get him out. Had similar period of recognition and shock and confusion and anger after but after time and being kind to myself life is soooo much easier.

Dinner together - he'd just have to pop out for a minute. Be gone hours and not answering his phone. By the time he got back I'd be a furious mess and he'd be all like 'but i only wanted to get some fresh air...why didn't you just go ahead and eat by yourself? '

Important events- he'd have plenty of notice but the week before was always 'oh i forgot to get time off work'. Would always magic the day off but then on the day refuse to get out of bed, complain endlessly, tell me to go on ahead and he'd join me later, try to get out of going at all. .and then eventually agree to go but make us late by takin aages to pick the exact right belt or shoes. So by the time we arrive he's all hail fellow well met and I'm exhausted and bad tempered.

The difficulty with a PA relationship is that the normal rules don't apply. In a healthy relationship something bothers you or there is something important you need but aren't getting so you talk about it to your partner maybe even argue a little. But the other person now knows your point of view and tries to improve things. With a PA person they agree and say all the right things to your face but then use the things that annoy you to torment you in future ('only joking of course!'). Or the things they now know are important to you they jump on, trash, spit on and destroy - but all very nicely, of course.

However it's not all doom and gloom. A short while after we split ex had the cheek to try and bully me into signing something for him that would have ammounted to fraud on my part. I refused and he started the usual brow beating- I'm this I'm that his friends would do it no problem etc. I turned and looked at him and said ' I no longer have to GIVE a shit what you think of me any more. And it feels GREAT '. Was the best feeling ever! !

Do you think they all do it deliberately? I guess some do, some just don't give a shit, and there will be some where it's a mix of both. I guess I am struggling to blame pure incompetence and lack of consideration as harshly as deliberately being hurtful and I don't think this idea of blame or justice is very helpful and there is no point in me agonising about it.

Wil, a lot of your family god stuff rings bells with me.

I have often struggled with thoughts about justice and fairness because there is no explicit template in Christianity for standing up for yourself. No matter how much someone takes from you, you are supposed to offer more. I don't know how to live like that, and still be functional. and when you have dependents, that's not ok

I think in my ex case was ingrained in him by his family and also culture - everyone is very 'nice' and to show anger is 'bad'. But he has admitted since that he knew what he was doing with regards to some of it as well. Dunno i think you could drive yourself mad figuring out the whys. But totally understandable to want some justification but they will never accept responsibility which is at the root of the behaviour i guess.

Thegreysheep it is true! It is sooo liberating not to give a shit about what they think of you. (I still have residual thoughts but nothing like I used to and where my heart still cares my heD is quick to shut it down. It is a true liberation. At the moment I don't even care why he behaves like this. I spent the last 6 years trying to figure out whether he is or he does it. Now I just want to be free!)

At the same time in order to escape you have to detach and in doing that you feel an abuser because you are behaving in a way that you'd consider abusive. So confusing. I now try to give this thoughts a rest when they pop up. I try to repeat the mantra "whatever the reason, it is not working, it has to stop".

But easier said than done, I know.

Maudlin
I have often struggled with thoughts about justice and fairness because there is no explicit template in Christianity for standing up for yourself. No matter how much someone takes from you, you are supposed to offer more. I don't know how to live like that, and still be functional. and when you have dependents, that's not ok

Forgive me for going a little off the main point here, but Maudlin, Wilhamena and I have all brought up Christianity. I think Christianity has not caught up enough with what is known about human beings now. I have always remembered the case of a burglary at a vicarage where a young Christian virgin was raped by one of the intruders. She forgave him. However, she then killed herself a year later. So, the anger she should have felt, and must have felt, was repressed and turned against herself.

Forgiveness gets confused I now believe. The most I think, now, is that one can say to oneself "I'll leave it to God to do any forgiving on my behalf - I personally don't have to take that burden." The famous psychologist Alice Miller also says what damage the idea of having to forgive does. It may come in its own time, but only after a person is allowed to grieve for and express what they endured.

I think what Pippi says about giving thoughts a rest as it's so confusing.
Whatever the reasons, if there is a constant impasse and draining of all your energy, I do think it is right to detach in one way or another. (Leave. Or, stay - but be very aware that you are not going to play along with any double-speak/act.)

Kind Dogs
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jill_Saward
She campaigned to change the law.

And Wil
I believe you. And you are not an abuser.

Another one brought up with christianity

I've often wondered about any links between Christianity and sexual health problems. Not because of tge bible but because of how it is preached

Thank you all for this thread. So much. I started to read it last night after spending a few days feeling absolutely awful, confused, guilty and so much of what I have read here is so similar to my situation that it's made me feel validated.
I have been with h for 20 years (since we were teenagers) and 2 dc and things are coming to a head now again. I say again because we split up for 2 years in between the births of our dc (so I cannot regret getting back together with him as I wouldn't have my lovely dd).
I had a traumatic childhood and he did too but I feel like I toook on the role of his mother which at the time in my stupidity and immaturity I didn't mind and maybe I liked in some ways. I was going to fix him of course!in the early years he was violent to me several times and when I finally tried to break free and take control back he took an overdose and nearly died. He was in intestive care for a month with kidney failure. The funny thing is that he has not been violent to me for over 15 years now and I suppose that aspect of it makes me feel like he doesn't fit into a typical 'box' of the violent man. I realise now that his anger just changed to manifest in other ways. I have written down several things that I can recognise in other people's oh that are abusive that also ring true with him some of which I have only just realised are deliberate!
Everyone loves him, people tell me how great he is and compliment him a lot.
I have had friends come to me and tell me how much he loves me and how he talks about me all the time and how he is terrified that I will leave him , things that he never ever says to me.
I get really anxious when late -especially now that I have had the kids. If we have somewhere to be that is important he will just be getting in the shower as I am getting the dc in the car. Every time.
Makes me feel guilty for spending an hour to get ready even though this hour was before the dc got up.
Comments about the dc and how they get treated better than him - eat better, I care for them more, that kind of thing.
Calls me names in front of the dc - his current favourite is 'bully'
For this reason I tread on egg shells around him and give in so that we won't have a an argument in front of them.
Spoils every time we do anything - if we try and go our somewhere all together he will find a way to be angry either one of the kids has done something terrible (they are both really well behaved) or I have and I spend the whole time trying to peace make.
Spoils every time we try and have an evening out, e.g. We recently went out for a meal and a few drinks and ended up meeting one of our dc's teachers in a bar. We reluctantly stayed with them for a bit, Dh had too much to drink and lost his bank card and disappeared so I got chatting to a couple of men who were standing next to me (not in the party of the teacher). When my Dh finally came back after about 20 minutes I introduced one of them to him as he was really friendly and happened to live near a place we went for a wedding . It was literally an innocent conversation with a stranger. He completely embarrassed me, accused me of being inappropriate (in front of everyone) said that I didn't care about my dc to be behaving in such a way when his teachers were around etc, I was absolutely mortified and I was having such a nice time that evening. We were having a laugh and really enjoying each other's company - I always expect something like this deep down though,.
He has problems with alcohol - doesn't know when to stop.
I hate the way he treats the kids although he has never hit them but I find his manner extremely aggressive. Which it also is with me.
When he has the opportunity he will use the most hurtful things against me - my mother was not a good one and so I have some feelings about how I need to bring up my own children to feel loved and safe. She had depression and other things but was a v selfish and damaging person back then. He tells me I am like my mother all the time with the kids. That is an example as he knows exactly how much I want to be the opposite of that.
I have started therapy and in fact I am going there today and I will discuss this with her.
The main problem for me is that last time we separated properly, he played the victim, I found it really hard to explain to everyone what the problem was as I was worried that I would always look petty. When I read this thread it made so much sense to me about he sort of emotional abuse that he's put me through which is really hard to articulate sometimes but just chips away.
I feel terrible about the kids, like I have failed them in some ways. I have often felt it is my job to sacrifice my own happiness for them to have us together but that feeling it starting to make less and less sense to me now.
I have one question to put to you... I was thinking about the being late thing that he always does... does he do this to me deliberately? I know it sounds like a stupid thing to say but it was only last night that I actually realised that he might do this to me on purpose....? It always felt like just a case of bad planning.
I think that he has taken his rage about his mother and projected it onto me, he knows I would never accept violence ever again and that I would publicly shame him if he laid a finger on me or the kids so this is the alternative (and yes I have often wished he would just punch me in the face-I thought I was the only person to think this and that I was a terrible person).
It has taken me a lot to write this. Thanks for listening and thanks everyone for sharing your own thoughts which made me feel strong.

User - the being late thing only clicked for me at the beginning of this thread. Why would he want us to be late, it's ridiculous. But You have to stop applying the reasonable person thinking to him.
If it was something he would arrange he'd be vague on the time we had to leave, then suddenly we had to leave in 15 mins. Or he'd tell me what time it started but not where it was so I'd have no idea what time to get ready for. Course when we get there it would be 'oh we're late because Potplant takes ages getting ready' which isn't true, but is a good way of putting me down in front of everyone.

Yes to spoiling days out by picking a fight about nothing with either me or the DCs.
Yes to accusing me of 'flirting' with men Id barely spoken to (he told the wife of a really good friend of mine that I fancied her husband, at their wedding).
Yes to the self pitying 'the DCs get better than me. Poor old me'.

User thsnk you for sharing. Every story helps all of us. The self doubt we all have is so powerful I think.

you seem more aware than you may think.

Re: the being late. I don't know whether it is done in full knowledge or subconsciously trying to hurt you. Even if he is not doing it consciously he still acts in a way that constantly creates a problem to you. This bit he is aware of but he is not prepared to do anything about it. We then get boggled down in trying to understand the reasons behind this behaviour and their inability to help themself so we step in and try to do the work for them. And we forget that it is him that choses to carry on in a way which causes distress to you, that he prefers to hurt you than to suffer himself.
That is not what love his. That is what I have learnt. That It is not for me to unpick the reasons behind his behaviour. It is for me to stop thinking I can take it because I am stronger.

My h has ruined many many lovely evenings/holidays in similar ways as the one you described. I don't think he meant to ruin them in the moment (alcohol never helps) but no effort was made in trying to understand what he did and trying to stop. It was always me or the incident would be never spoken of.

My h has refused to do anything about many issues that I have brought up in our marriage. Yes, it may be because of his mum, his dad etc, reality is he knew I was unhappy, he knew the rel was suffering but he choses to keep doing it his way.

Sometimes it seems to me we are all
In a more complicated version of "he is not that into you when he has not phoned after the first date". All those our picking at his psyche (and ours!!) when in fact the core of the matter was "he was doing what he wanted to do".

If you have watched Mad Men I think the example of Don/Dick Draper is quite fitting. He wasn't all bad but he was bad. If he was bad it was because of what he had to endure as a child. Ok. We got it. But why should the women around him suffer so? Why?

(Sorry for long post - thoughts flow)

Yes to the dc getting everything.

Yes to hide his stress/anger/insecurity by making me stressed/anger/insecure etc.

Now I know I do not want to be with someone that is so not self-aware, that he is so scared he will use everyone as shields to avoid facing up to his pain.