Mn please help me figure this out - DP asking dad before proposing

[sadandanxious]

So DP and I have recently been discussing the possibility of getting married at some point in the future. I've always said I want him to ask my dad before proposing to me. He can't understand why and thinks it should be between us two, not him and my dad first. He has said he will ask my dad but that it feels wrong and feels like it puts pressure on him to do the proposing instead of us having an equal discussion.
I can't explain it to him though, not really. I do actually agree with him that it should be between DP and I but I know my dad would be gutted if he wasn't asked. And I've got it in my head that I'm already ready for marriage whereas he's not quite yet and so I want him to do the proposing so I know he definitely wants it. Does that even make sense though? Also it doesn't sit right with me that my dad needs to give his permission (even though he'd never say no), because it's my relationship and my life. I end up going around in circles in my own head trying to figure it out.

For those who's DP's did ask your father, is that what you wanted and why? Would you have been bothered if he hadn't?

[Pimmmms]

Up until your last post I thought your DP could ask for your dad's blessing on your marriage, rather than his permission.

But after your last post, no, I don't even think he should do that.

Your Dad sounds like a selfish person who blames others for his faults. How would you view someone if their child came to you and told you they had done the same things your dad had done to you? I think you'd be pretty horrified, tbh.

[HyacinthFuckit]

Honestly OP I'm not at all surprised you've revealed that your dad is controlling. This had FOG all over it. I've known of a few cases where the dad was insistent on being asked first, and in every case he was highly controlling at a minimum, sometimes verging on the emotionally abusive. It makes a lot of sense, if you think about it. For a man to genuinely take the view, in this day and age, that he's entitled to be asked if his daughter can be engaged, there'd have to be something very, very wrong. If your dad thought he should be asked for permission if you were going to engage in other significant life events, it would be clear to everyone probably even including you that he was being grossly controlling, wouldn't it?

You can't possibly insist on dragging DP into your dad's awful behaviour and warped dynamics. It's got to stop now. Good luck.

[StrongTeaHotShower]

I'd hate it, I'd never allow it and that's coming from someone that's had all her feminist principles steamrolled over at one point or other. So if I wouldn't accept it then it surely crosses a line!

It would appear I've developed a woman crush on womanwithaltitude . you've said everything I was thinking but couldn't write as eloquently. Just like you did on the famous footballer rapist threads in the feminism section

[WomanWithAltitude]

[WomanWithAltitude]

It's very flattering to be considered crush-worthy btw.

All those saying it reminds them of being a chattel etc - if you're married, were you walked down the aisle and given away by your father? And if so, how is that different? Just out of interest.

In answer to this - I wasn't walked down the aisle or given away by my dad. DH and I walked down the aisle together, arm in arm.

It isn't any different. It's still a tradition that is based on the idea that women are possessions, which is why I didn't do it.

[StrongTeaHotShower]

[WomanWithAltitude]

OP - I totally agree with the pp's regarding your dad. He's abusive, and even if you take the symbolism out of it he's not the kind of man you or your dp should feel obliged to pander to. Breaking away from abusive controlling parents, and getting to a point where you can ignore their unreasonable demands, is very hard, but it's important to do. It's essential if you're going to be happy.

Your dp sounds like he respects you, and will support you in standing up to your dad. That's worth treasuring. If you can break away from your dad's expectations and control, and the two of you go into marriage as equals, it'll set the scene for your future to be free of controlling men. Wouldn't that be fantastic?

[MovingOnUpMovingOnOut]

All those saying it reminds them of being a chattel etc - if you're married, were you walked down the aisle and given away by your father? And if so, how is that different? Just out of interest.

Of course I wasn't Nor did I have an engagement ring.

The only concession to the patriarchal bullshit that I made, was that I kept my first surname and took dh's too (both names given by a man). Although I interchange between them as I please and I never use Mrs because my marital status is rarely, if ever, relevant to anything.

[MovingOnUpMovingOnOut]

I've just read your update op. Sounds like this might be the time to start making your own choices and put the past firmly behind you.

Fwiw a lot of what you put in your last posts sounds very familiar to me so I understand but you can never please people like that. So you might as well please yourself and form a nice, tight partnership with your dp that doesn't require anybody's endorsement but your own.

[KnittingPearl]

Having read your updates I'm changing what I was going to say. I was going to say that perhaps your DP could speak to both your mother and father, more in a "ask your blessing" way, so it's not quite so patriarchal.

However, given the overbearing nature of your parents' attitude to you (especially your father), I think keeping them out of your relationship is probably for the best. Not in the sense of cutting them off, but in the sense of not discussing things with them/making them feel like they have a say in what you, as a couple, do.

Regarding him showing that he really is ready/wanting to marry you, again, that is something you need to talk to each other about. A friend of mine was very firm that she wanted her DP to propose, as she had made all the first moves in their relationship so far, and she wanted him to actively propose rather than passively accept, so I do understand where you are coming from. However, you say "I've got it into my head", so possibly your feeling isn't substantiated by the facts of your relationship? Either way, your feelings are still your feelings, so I think a proper conversation with your DP on this is required.

I hope all goes well for you.

[Sassypants82]

My DH called my Dad, told him he was intending to propose & said something like 'I hope we have your blessing'.
He explicitly sis not asking for permission as he quite rightly, feels that the only permission involved would be mine. My parents were together at the time of the call & so waited excitedly for my call breaking the news.
I actually think it was lovely, it involved them in the occasion & I think it brought them closer to my DP that he showed them that courtesy. However, my relationship with them has always been really close, healthy & loving & they really do love my DH like another son so a bit different to your situation OP. It was all part of my story & I'm glad he did it. I can understand your Dr's opinion though & given your earlier difficulties with your Dad, understand his position.

[ElizaDontlittle]

OP you've had quite a resounding "no!" on here - personally one of the things I really like about MN is its feminist leanings and robust questioning of misogyny.

Your father was seriously abusive towards you - and it's hard to throw off that kind of upbringing. It sounds like your DP is a good person to be doing that with though. Have the wedding you want. Don't let your father emotionally blackmail you - history suggests he will. Question those 'I've always felt...' statements - are they you, formed independently, or has someone conditioned you to 'feel' them.

Wishing you a happy marriage to a good man.

(No, DH didn't ask my father and he and I walked in together)

[Sassypants82]

Understand your DP's position *

[MatildaTheCat]

I am in a tiny minority in that I think it is quite a nice,mif meaningless tradition to speak with the brides father about your intention to propose. I know several men who have done this and the fathers have all been rather touched. It sort of demonstrates an intention to work at becoming a good son in law.

However, in this case I would say definitely do not do it because the father in question is an abusive arsehole and it would give him a feeling of strength and prestige he does not deserve.

I'd actually be more inclined to get married quietly and then announce it casually next time you saw him. And once a month is too frequent to see someone so nasty.

[DotForShort]

It's an outdated tradition rooted in historical misogyny. I feel the same about marriage proposals too BTW. I wanted nothing to do with any of that patriarchal guff.

However, in this case it seems you are still trying to appease your father. Quite frankly, he sounds extremely abusive. Could you use this opportunity to try to reduce the amount of control he has over you? Not physical control, but rather the way your dad still seems to be a voice in your head telling you what to do.

[HyacinthFuckit]

It sort of demonstrates an intention to work at becoming a good son in law.

How? If anything, it demonstrates a very worrying attitude to marriage and to one's daughter.

[ptumbi]

How do I resolve this ? - you recognise that your attitude is because of the Fear Obligation and Guilt you are still in thrall to, as regards your father. You want to 'keep him happy'. This inevitably leads to someone else (your DH, in this case) not being happy, and you seem to have veered into upsetting him, rather than your father. This is a total Red Flag, and you need to take action.

This has to stop. You are grown, you and DP are a separate entity now and should be making your own joint decisions. Your father has NO say in your marriage or wedding.

MAke a stand now. If he is 'unhappy' or 'disappointed', tough.

[Loaferloveforyou]

My DP asked my dads permission and I always said if he was to propose I would like him to ask. Like OP I have no idea why but If DP refused I would have had to accept that (and my dad wouldn't have been bothered anyway) but I would always feel something was missing.

I agree it's such an old fashioned concept but I am an old fashioned kinda girl. I don't feel like it made me anyone's property at all. I knew my dad would say yes but I also liked the idea that he knew DP was proposing before I did (along with pretty much everyone else we knew ). DP and I are close to our families and each other's. I feel that DP is not so much as asking to marry me, but also for him to become part of our family.

My dad is also 'giving me away' at our wedding. Again, I don't feel this makes me anyone's property but if I'm to walk down the aisle I'd be too nervous to go alone and so I wouldn't want anyone else by my side (apart from my mum but she doesn't want to)

[Kidnapped]

"I am in a tiny minority in that I think it is quite a nice,mif meaningless tradition to speak with the brides father about your intention to propose. I know several men who have done this and the fathers have all been rather touched. It sort of demonstrates an intention to work at becoming a good son in law".

But that niceness and respectfulness doesn't extend to any of the women in the family. It actively excludes them. That right there is the issue. Think about it. It is a gesture that shows respect to men only and the women are clearly not worthy of a nice or respectful gesture.

Therefore it is not meaningless. It is very meaningful. It is meaningful that respect is due only to men.

If there were a tradition where both bride and groom ask for the blessing of the other's parents (mother as well as father) then we'd all have much less of an issue with it.

[Ohyesiam]

I it's great to want to honour your parents, but it's not your job to keep then happy and project then from disappointment.

[WomanWithAltitude]

But that niceness and respectfulness doesn't extend to any of the women in the family.

Yes!

Also, if it is just about courtesy and demonstrating his commitment to being a good son in law, why would you not do the same to his mum or dad, to demonstrate your commitment to being a good daughter in law?

The claim that it's simply a nice gesture about respect / courtesy is total nonsense. If people choose this for themselves, they are free to do so, but please stop pretending it's something it's not.

[Okkitokkiunga]

My DH asked my parents before proposing. He wouldn't have bothered but he knew I wanted him to. My parents live on the other side of the world and we just though it was a nice touch. There no way they would have said anything other than go for it as we'd already bought a house together and they think the sun shines out of his backside.

I wouldn't expect anyone to ask to marry my DD.

Out of curiosity though, everyone on this thread who is against it - who did the proposing in your marriage?

[WomanWithAltitude]

No one in my case, we discussed it together.

[WomanWithAltitude]

Proposing is a less misogynist tradition that asking the bride's father for permission though.

For a start - women can, and do, propose. But I've never heard of anyone asking a man's parents for permission to marry him.

[WomanWithAltitude]

And proposing actually involves asking the person involved, and not their dad! So it's not about treating marriage like a transfer of property between men.

I don't like the way that proposing is often seen as the man's job, and that many women think they have to passively wait for the man to decide when it's time to marry, but that's an entirely separate issue, and it's on a totally different scale to the horrific 'asking her dad for her hand' business.