support thread for those of us having to 'co-parent' with a narc or very difficult exh 2

[Lilacpink40]

Hope this works...

[Lilacpink40]

I'd do it, but if DCs saw me writing on mirrors it would go against years of me telling them not to draw 'sticky-hand' faces on mirrors

I have another I was told recently... 'presence not presents matters to children' (or Disney parent never impresses over reliable parent).

[mysinkingheart]

The three C' S!! Had forgotten about them thanks for that!
They were scrawled on lots of different notepads when I was trying to get my head around his behaviour...when in fact you realise that there's nothing to understand, all there is to know is that any form of nastiness, manipulation, aggressiveness etc.is unacceptable, full stop.
So no green I don't think writing it across the mirror is going to far..do what it takes! I used to send myself emails with words like JADE and medium chill before meetings where I had to see him!

[Lilacpink40]

2012 'out of the fog' is an apt title for the website isn't it?
I think we've all had 'revealing' moments thank God, or life, or whatever.

[mysinkingheart]

Great to hear that 2012! No it really isn't you. I found that knowing that gave me more energy so I know what you mean. All that energy we waste questioning ourselves
Night night everyone

[2012PP]

It's a perfect title completely. It's exactly what's happened.
Wow what an evening.
Thank you everyone for accepting me to your thread and for advice and website and everything.
I'm a bit of a Blubbering wreak at the moment.

[nicenewdusters]

Hi Purple , evening all, found you all again. The Duster Mobile called, so have had to do some late night cruising. It's continued to be a laugh with my hot wheels. School mum friends peering at the car, then laughing as I get out. "Oh Dusters it's you !!" I love that I am the antithesis of my hire car, I am the slippers to limited edition Nikes !

Ohforfoxsake. You asked earlier if we had a regular contact arrangement. We do. We agreed it just between ourselves when we first split up. He has since removed one evening of contact. He asked after about a year to make a few other adjustments. I agreed to 4 out of 5, the 5th wasn't good for the dc. He had a strop. A couple were implemented. He seemed to forget about the other 2 changes he wanted. I didn't remind him, not my problem I decided.

So, he sees them regularly, very rarely asks to change anything. Fortunately he's about as likely to meet somebody else as I am of marrying Donald Trump ! He doesn't have a busy social life, so not much to interfere with his plans. Until recently I used to offer more contact/over nights if it was appropriate, useful to me, fitted in with what the dc wanted.

Now that I've lost any feelings of pity for him (at not living with his dc) or feel the need to manage their relationship with him, I don't. I'm still flexible but I don't consider his needs.

I saw my parents tonight, they'd been away for a while. They asked how things had been with him. I said just (just?!) the incident where he'd left them on the doorstep. I told them about the texts that followed. My mum said it never stops does it, because you'll never reach the point where you can reason with him. I agreed (thinking that's what we all say on here) but added that it has kind of stopped for me, because I accept that now.

Just to say about CBT. After my EA relationship (the one before current ex) I had this for 9 months, virtually every week. My parents approached a family friend who worked in a related field. They suggested a place, I asked my GP to refer me, and after about 3 months they took me on. It was scary, crazy at times, probably one of the biggest challenges of my life. But it was amazing. Still makes me go cold to admit it but it probably saved my life.

[mysinkingheart]

Take care 2012 baby steps..
And yeah lilac FOG...fear obligation guilt...says it all
Antidote bravery freedom grace?
To be continued..Night!

[Lilacpink40]

Night sinking

Hi dusters I had panic attack with OH appointment at my work just after split when it suddenly hit me that I'd never be completely free as, even in adulthood, the DCs may have times that they want both of us with them. I think your point of accept the ex will always be narc helps, a case of trying not to fight against a mountain.

[nicenewdusters]

remember : just wanted to comment on something you said when talking to your ex about the situation with your dd. You said about breaking something to him gently, trying not to offend him. I have 18 months of hindsight (I see that you left two weeks ago) so what I say is based only on that.

This is where we differ from them, and where we make ourselves vulnerable. When was the last time your ex ever had that consideration for you? Do you think he chooses his words carefully to spare you any pain? No. And you don't have to either. The normal rules of engagement don't apply. Your kindness will not benefit you, it will probably be seen by him as a sign of weakness.

You are not letting your dc down by not considering his feelings. You have to protect yourself. Being nice to him won't trigger a virtuous train of events, leading ultimately to happy co-parenting. He is not your friend, you are not his. He is just somebody you have to deal with, as dispassionately as possible, because you have children. You owe him nothing, you don't have to accept any behaviour from him that you wouldn't accept from anybody else.

I'm not saying I am capable of the above 100% of the time, I'm not. And it's only recently I've come to this realisation. But it's now my starting point in all my dealings with him.

[nicenewdusters]

Hi Lilac. It's a sad acceptance isn't it, but ultimately a healthy one I hope. Somebody said to me a few weeks ago that of course I needed to maintain some sort of relationship with ex, as in years to come there might be weddings etc. I guess this is the kind of thing you are referring to.

I replied that I didn't have to do anything. I explained that I wouldn't be allowing somebody into my life who's behaviour I wouldn't accept from anybody else, just in case in years to come I had to attend a function with them there!! I said that even if such events did occur, life will have moved on in ways that nobody now can know about. Again, the whole how can't you be talking to your children's father expectation. Well, walk a mile in my shoes....

[PurpleThursday]

Exactly dusters. Some people's opinions are utterly irrelevant as they are putting up with marriages/relationships that are completely shit anyway!

On the subject of counselling, a friend of mine recommended this to me ..

www.hoffmaninstitute.co.uk

Now, I realise this is generally a] unaffordable and b] very inflexible with regards to childcare, I certainly couldn't manage to do it for those reasons, but she could not speak highly enough of it. It was a revelation to her and she found it helped her so deeply. In an ideal world I guess we could all go in it for free and have free decent childcare thrown in. Anyway, I thought I would throw it into the ring as it is apparently very highly thought of.

[greencarbluecar]

Glad you found us dusters. I had another realisation reading your post up there, I've tried to break things gently too and while it's partly because I don't like the idea of hurting him (why?? after what he's reduced me to?), I know deep down there is some vague idea that if I'm just nice enough to him he'll start being reasonable and behave like a parent should.

That's a road to nowhere isn't it.

I think though I am also very reluctant to make him angry by saying things he won't like, as then I Must Pay. Sometimes the thought that this control will never end is overwhelming, others I achieve something like acceptance. Still don't want to enrage him though.

[Froginapan]

Oh FFS. My eldest child's father is a narc too. 6 years of the same crap over and over. I finally cut contact to emails only a couple of weeks back. He has just sent me the lyrics to Bastille's Bad Blood.

[2012PP]

I too have this notion of not hurting X - considering their feelings - thinking over & over again how to phrase things in emails/texts so it comes across in a way X will properly understand.... (They perhaps start acting in a reasonable way).
yesterday I sent an email back saying ...(like someone here mentioned up thread)... That id take ds if X couldn't but would not change contact days. Funnily enough I've not had the barrage of replies I'd normally have had about how unreasonable-mean-controlling-blah-blah I am!
Now it's just the silent treatment. (There is always something).
I'm really looking forward fo the day that my stomach doesn't churn every time I get an email : have to deal with X.
Green- I completely understand about the bit you said that if I'm nice enough then perhaps X will just behave like a parent should- and the bit about how you will pay... Christ ... I had no idea quite how much of a "fog" I lived with this one.

[IKnitSoIDontKill]

Can I join you all? I've been separated from my ea ex husband for 4 years, and I am now happily remarried and expecting a baby any day now. Dd is 5.
He has caused no end of problems, mainly due to his utter lack of communication. We mostly email because he lies and is abusive in person and on the phone, but he often just ignores emails/texts/calls for weeks on end, which I try to let wash over me as much as possible but does cause issues in terms of holidays and travel plans (we live 4 hours apart and have to use public transport, so planning is involved).

The latest issue is that I am massively pregnant and unable to travel (the trip involves a ferry, which I'm not allowed on after a premature labour scare). Dh has been doing the travelling to take dd to contact every other weekend but as I am now close to delivering I don't want him to be so far away as there would be no way for him to get back if anything happened. Exh is again refusing to communicate- he won't do any travelling, my messages are ignored and therefore he has missed the last 2 contact weekends and hasn't seen or spoken to dd in 5 weeks. I'm so so angry- I know it's his choice, but she misses him and I'm at a loss to explain why he can't be bothered. The last time we spoke he told me it wasn't his problem as I chose to get pregnant, and if we didn't bring dd for contact then he'd take me back to court. Sigh. I was doing so well trying to detach but he's sucking me back in and the pregnancy hormones are making me doubt myself.

[ohforfoxsake]

Each post on here makes me take a sharp intake of breath and nod in agreement.

Its quite a phenomenon. And yet such an acceptable way to behave (if you are a narc). I don't understand it. By its own definitition, a narcissist will never have the emotional intelligence nor the capacity for self-reflection to realist their own abhorrant, destructive behaviour. And so so often these are capable, successful, educated people.

XH was very much the golden boy, and still remains so. I think his sisters have always lived in his shadow. He stopped developing emotionally around the age of 7 I think. Even the other day when I pulled him up on something (for which it can't be denied he has formed for) he yelled "take that back!"

He couldn't understand why he was asked to leave the Co-op a couple of months ago, when he took the dog in. I rest my case.

[ohforfoxsake]

IKnit - congratulations on your new baby, thats true joy. Don't let the past cast a shadow over your hopes and dreams for the future.

A narc doesn't know joy. That's an incredibly sad way to live life.

[Ausernotanumber]

I actually don't know what I'll do if either Of my kids with him get married and want him there m

I don't know whether it's better for myself and my own mental health not to go or whether I put the kids first and go and put myself in a spiral.

That is firmly parked in the deal with that if it ever happens box.

[bibliomania]

Hi to newbies and especially to drmum - I've been on your other thread and it's a truly horrendous situation. Hope it gets sorted soon.

I'm chiming in to stay on the thread, although I feel a slight fraud as I left exH over 7 years ago. I'm glad to report that he doesn't loom as large in my life as he once did (how he would hate to hear that!) Still in and out of court as exH rather fancies himself as a lawyer.

DD(8) took a sudden fit of missing him last night and cried and cried. She spoke to him on the phone and he agreed to see her briefly at the school gate, but he wouldn't agree to her request to see her on Sunday, because if he gets contact over and above the court order, he won't be able to paint himself as a victim when we're back in court in a couple of weeks. If he actually understood what this hearing is about, he would realise that it won't make the slightest difference, but he's not the brilliant strategist he thinks he is.

Anyway, dd chattered cheerfully about daddy's vast wealth (ha! He's unemployed and I get £6 a week from him, deducted at source as he won't pay up voluntarily) and how he always gets discounts at markets because people see he is such a nice person and how good he is, working for people's rights. I know she knows better, so I let her have her moment of daddy worship. Poor kid, I wish I hadn't inflicted this father on her.

[WearingFuckMeSocks]

I think as generally kind caring people we all try not to hurt anyone's feelings. However, I agree completely with Dusters when she says

The normal rules of engagement don't apply. Your kindness will not benefit you, it will probably be seen by him as a sign of weakness.

And worse, will be used against you at a later date, after he's twisted it beyond recognition. My ex used to say "to be forwarded is to be forearmed". Now I tell him as little as possible.

The "out of the fog" website is really helpful, as is this facebook page www.facebook.com/Narcissistic-and-Emotional-Abuse-308444339340514/?hc_ref=PAGES_TIMELINE&fref=nf

I love Purple's three point plan - this is going up on my fridge, next to my Bill of Rights from the Freedom Programme. It's taken three years but I'm almost at the point where I don't engage, don't get sucked in, don't try and explain/defend.

The last verbal conversation we had I recorded on my phone and listening back to it just highlights how much he tried to change the subject, deflect blame back on me, used sarcasm and a patronising tone, brought up a whole load of irrelevant points and generally avoid discussing the issue in hand, which was how unhappy our DD is at his house.

[ohforfoxsake]

Actually thats true - narcs do target people who are empathisers (if that's a word).

[WearingFuckMeSocks]

They do seem to target empathisers. DD (8) is very empathic and I'm very aware that she could easily be taken advantage of as she gets older. She also has a copy of the bill of rights, the first two statements of which are

"You have the right to be you"
and
"You have the right to put yourself first".

Sadly this latter statement directly contravenes the Brownie code of always putting others first, so I don't think it'd go down well with Brown Owl

[Froginapan]

Wearing

Your pointing out part of the Brownies code being always putting everyone else first got me thinking, so I went and searched for the Cubs code of conduct: interestingly in their code there is no command to always put others first.

Can anyone say the words: social engineering?

[bibliomania]

Very interesting Cubs/Brownies contrast there - great example of socialisation along gender lines.

[nicenewdusters]

Morning all, welcome to everyone new here. I love how much humour there is on this thread, in amongst all the angst.

Really enjoyed your description yesterday Natsku of you breaking up the concrete in your kitchen, imagining the floor was your ex's face. Also, that you might do it to a bit of Queen. Was driving to an appointment this morning, feeling a bit anxious (all ok in the end). Queen's Bohemian Rhapsody came on. I thought of you frog as I nodded along. It was kind of a mumsy version of that scene from Wayne's World.

Like you Ohfor I keep doing the sharp intake of breath when reading this thread. Interesting about us all still trying to be "good": reasonable, fair, flexible etc. I said a while ago on here that I didn't want all this to change me. I still largely think that. But actually it has changed me in some ways, lots for the better. I don't put up with things so quickly anymore. I say no more often, I'm more selfish. I care much less what people think.

Fascinating about the comparison between the cubs and brownies pledges. Speaks volumes.

Iknit : how exciting about your baby. I know it's upsetting for your dd not to see her dad but nobody (reasonable) would be expecting you and/or your dh to be doing such huge trips by public transport at this time. If he can't be bothered to travel to see her is he really going to go to the effort of going to Court? I know he might just out of spite, but I suspect at the moment he's just massively jealous of you. Don't let him spoil this time for you. Tell him he knows where you live, if he can't be bothered to travel then tough luck, and ignore him.

Don't doubt yourself, you are the one acting normally.