Attempts to talk always end like this!

[brightnearly]

It's happened so many times before, and it happened again this morning:

I did something DH didn't like (in this case, being a little alarmed and apologetic that our letters are on my writing desk - they don't belong there, and the desk was a mess) - he berated me ('It's not necessary to react like this, all I said was that I'm going to sort out the letters, and you shoot up immediately and get all alarmed etc) - I tried to explain myself ('I felt really bad about the messy desk and the fact the letters weren't in the right place") - I'm being told I'm unreasonable.

Then I try to explain that if every reaction of mine needs to be the 'right' one, and correspond to his intentions (and not my perception of the situation), life is difficult for me (and it is, I feel at least as if I'm forever being told of for reacting in the wrong way). I didn't mean any harm by my reaction, at all.

Then he sighs and declares that I don't understand him, that this conversation is going nowhere, that we are just not on the same page, we just don't get on, and that's that. That I wasn't listening to him at all and not taking in his point of view. I then said that I was very interested in his point of view and would like to understand it - but he just dismissed me, saying no, I wasn't!
When I asked him where he wanted to go from here, he said 'that is my decision'.

I cannot say how sad, frustrated, dismayed and horrified I feel; and I wanted to ask: Does anyone have an idea of how to get someone to have a full conversation with you? Any techniques on how to ease someone into taking in another's point of view? In 8 years of marriage I cannot recall a single conversation where my point of view was taken into account properly.
Quite often, attempts at conversations end even more dramatically, with him shouting at me and hiding in the bathroom.

Dawn, do you not think it would be very irritating to make a passing comment about letters only to have your partner rush up all alarmed and start apologising? Or for your partner to start apologising for asking you to collect him just because you weren't super smiley after a vexing pickup situation?

TheSparrowhawk Possibly all this would be very irritating - but also something one could easily have a rational discussion about?

He told you clearly what bothered him and you basically told him he expected you to have the 'right' reactions, which isn't what he said at all. I can see why he just gave up tbh.

What it sounds like is that your reactions really annoy him, you've said you can't change, so he says there's no way to deal with it. Which to be fair makes sense.

Has it not occurred to you Sparrowhawk that the op's anxious behaviour has been caused by emotional abuse dealt out by her dh?

The OP hasn't said that at all Naice

I suggest that you reread the thread Sparrow.

It's clear that the DH is very frustrated with the OP apologising and asking if he's ok (to which he answered yes btw) and reacts badly to that. It sounds like they're not compatible.

To me saying 'it's not necessary to react like this'll is a measured way of expressing frustration. The OP started going on about every reaction having to be the right one, which is an overreaction IMO. I can understand him being exasperated at that point and he sensibly walked away rather than escalating the situation.

Maybe he's an emotionally abusive narcissist or maybe Sparrowhawk is right that it's a relationship gone sour. Either way OP, you don't have to live a lifetime with someone who doesn't like you and is no longer capable of even being kind to you. That isn't ok.

My God Sparrow you seem to be extraordinarily lacking in empathy!

Bright - So sorry you are going through this.

Have you considered that your DH might be on the autistic spectrum? This would account for his inability to accept your perspective or point of view, as it wasn't what he was expecting. Any other reaction than the one he has in his head already would mean him becoming anxious, frustrated, possibly angry and even verbally abusive.

HOWEVER. This does not mean that it is acceptable behaviour.

If you think that DH may be autistic you have some difficult choices. You could tell him what you suspect on condition that he seeks help to get to the bottom of his behaviour. He would needs to find better strategies for dealing with his unreasonable responses. Also he needs to agree to couples counselling so you both get a chance to air your grievances in a safe place.

You need not be living under the same roof whilst this happens, and I feel that for your own mental health you might be better apart whilst you both work out what it is you want.

What I suspect might happen, however, is that DH will thoroughly reject that he has a problem. This happened to a friend of mine and ultimately she divorced her DP. I think she would have stayed if he been willing to entertain that his behaviour was causing problems in the relationship. Not the autism but his refusal to accept that their relationship was dominated by his beliefs and his opinions were the only ones that mattered.

Whatever happens you need to take care of yourself and your DCs and put yourself back in control of your own life. And this is by whatever means necessary for the safety of yourself and them.

I have never been where you are now, but I do have two children with Asperger Syndrome and recognise some of the behaviour patterns.

Lots of hugs for you and your DCs.

My MIL does the apologising thing. If she's looking after the DCs and I say 'haven't they made a mess!' she'll start apologising, even though I'm not at all cross. If I said there was no need to apologise I'd get the hurt face, the 'I can't do anything right.' It is so irritating and I simply can't win.

Sparrow so, what do you say to your MIL in such a situation?

Do you say 'Oh, don't worry, it's fine! Thank you for looking after them!'?

Or do you berate her?

I avoid her.

If I had to live with her I'd scream at her.

Yes - the problem with that strategy is - you cannot have a relationship. That might be ok when it comes to your MIL, but it's problematic when it's your spouse.

I don't think anyone is entirely compatible with anyone else. Goodwill, tolerance and compassion are essential for any relationship - and communication.

So is it your opinion that he should tolerate your reactions, no matter how much they irritate him?

You argue uncannily like my DH!!

Well, I'd have liked him (in the letters-situation) to just have said 'Don't worry, it's ok.', without berating me.

By tolerance as an approach to others I don't mean the unquestioning acceptance of anything and everything they do, I mean the realisation that we are all subjective, and may feel differently about situations.

He was annoyed and told you so - that's communication. Your response was to overreact 'every response needs to be the right one.' What could be say to that? You weren't listening to him and you were putting words in his mouth.

Also, Sparrowhawk, you haven't addressed the actual issues at stake here at all, and gone off on a tangent.

The problem is that it is impossible for me to discuss any issues with DH; and that that makes it impossible to have a proper relationship/friendship/marriage.

Whether I am irritating or not (which is a subjective judgment) is not relevant, really.

So the answer is to end the marriage. Which I know isn't easy at all. Do you have people who can support you?

I dont know for sure but the anger in the car sounds like he was looking for appreciation of how he felt, not your apology for 'making him' feel that way iyswim. I can't decypher the letters issue, but it does sound as though he is wanting more acknowledgement of feelings than either apology or accusation, eg 'wow that must have been frustrating, were you angry?' rather than 'sorry sorry its my fault'

it sounds like the connection about emotions is being expressed analytically/ whose fault it is/isnt ..a bit like i would do at work, so maybe its that 'work voice' that is triggering?

Yes, it is communication - but so is shouting expletives at someone!

'Every response has to be the right one' - well, it has to be in my case, otherwise I'm being told off, and that's not very pleasant at all! I want to avoid that -same as he wants to avoid getting irritated by me - so I need to address the root cause.

If he knows that I am not reacting in the way I do out of malice, and don't like it if he berates me in the manner he does - and I know what makes him tick (I haven't gotten there yet, because the conversations are never finished!!), then the whole issue will ge solved and gone, not only in that particular situation, but overall.

Why is the answer to end the marriage? The answer would be to sort these issues out, surely (with goodwill).

Sparrowhawk are you sure you're not DH waves