How do you deal with people like this? Or stop being their target?

[OnceThereWasThisGirlWho]

Firstly, the karma thread got me thinking. Especially the posters saying horrible people often seem to get away with it. IME this is true - and it's true because nasty people pick their victims carefully and others think they are wonderful. As if it's all a game, where those they deem "low status" are written off whilst perceived "high status" individuals are brought onside (yes I know I sound like a psychologist!). I mean, I suppose that is human behaviour sadly, but it seems to an extreme degree (?). In the same way with groups, some people get away with poor behaviour because they are "popular" (why the hell are they popular?!) whilst others will be vilified for much less. And then of course these people also get to define the collective "reality" because they will be believed over the "low status" people.

I suppose my first question is, are most people like this? Can I meet nice people who actually form friendships with individuals without all the weird power games?

I've also recently been having distressing memories about an incident almost a decade ago. This incident illustrates something perfectly that I struggle with, and links in to the above. What happened was, I'd moved into a new shared house - one guy rented the place and let out the other two rooms. (Other occupied by bloke never there as always at partner's house). We seemed to get on well, and after a few days ended up sat up late one night chatting about all sorts. He told me about this woman he'd met that apparently his friends were warning him to stay away from because she was a single mother and a bit older than him (). I said don't be ridiculous, sounds fab, blah blah. Within a week they were not only together but inseparable, and he was helping with her mum's shopping and things. The second week, I met her, after a night out - they had also been out and got in before me and we merrily finished off a bottle of wine and seemed to "bond" or whatever. All good.

Following week for no apparent reason I was asked to move out (meanwhile I never saw him as he always stayed at hers). I was and asked why, and told it was because of all the late night wild parties I'd been having. Blatent lie - there was nothing that could remotely be construed as a late wild party! Or even any part of that description. It was completely bonkers. He claimed the neighbours had complained. I had no idea how to handle it - he was lying to me, and he knew I knew he was lying. (I checked with the pleasant and friendly neighbours about parties in case someone in the vicinity had been doing that and it was mistakenly attributed to me. They'd heard nothing and were as baffled as me).

But of course, I had to go. He had all the power. Had about 10 days notice (until end of month) The day I left was horrific and the police got involved (in hindsight I was assaulted, by both he and his new partner, but I didn't frame it as such so didn't tell the police). I'm guessing that this guy's new partner was the reason I got kicked out.

The thing is, this is such a bonkers thing to happen that it sounds like I'm making it up. I suppose most people would think that I must be denying having parties, or lying about some other aspect/covering something up. It's frightening, it makes me feel so vulnerable, because I know people can be dicks to me and get away with it. Luckily in this incident my friends believed me because this guy was the "unknown" person, and two of them had called for me the night before I left and he was unpleasant to them.

But this sort of thing seems to happen to me. People are unpredictably really vile, and if it's by someone in the group/known to the group, as the (relative) newbie, I'm the one who gets disbelieved and/or cut out. If it's not by someone known to the group, there's still the issue of appearing to be making stuff up/being a "drama queen" because, to put it bluntly, this amount of bizarre crap should not happen to one person. There's so much I wish I could tell someone but I just can't.

People seem willing to believe horrible lies about me, and I always seem to be the target for controlling bullying types. I was "wendied" and cut off from someone I'd thought was a good friend (male) when they got a girlfriend. (She was verbally and physically agressive to him and controls who he sees). Another friend who was also pushed out a bit (we discussed it), moved away. She recently visitied and suddenly is all pally with this awful woman - to the point of believing lies about me. I just do not understand this, and it is deeply upsetting.

So my second question is, how do I stop people like her targetting me?

Finally, there's other stuff. I have mental health issues - started off as being quite messed up from problems at home and as I got into abusive relationships and had some awful expereinces I seemed to aquire a load of trauma that unleashed itself in my mid 20s even as everything else was finally going well. This didn't exactly help me making friends in the new area I'd moved to. A problem I find is that people write me off, but being friends with the oddballs who accept me either seems to mean dealing with severely dysfunctional people, people I don't actually feel I have much in common with, or those who do become friends and get it together and stop being oddballs who then cut me out because I don't belong in their fab new life (despite encouraging them before!)

I'm in my early 30s now and want to give up tbh. Im so sorry this post is so long, I keep crying. Just finally - I know someone will mention it - I'm waiting for an ASD assessment, however I can read nonverbal cues quite well (apparently - obvs I wouldn't know!).

Secondly, I saw a therapist for about 18 months. It really helped with self confidence and boundaries, but the world the therapist lives in seems to be different from mine. Hence me being sure there's something I'm doing that makes me a target. Also, having boundaries and self worth means I draw the line sooner with people and stand up for myself more, which obviosuly doesn't go down well. I feel so stuck, if I'm nice to people they walk all over me, if I calmly put down boundaries or stand up for myself they go bonkers as if trying to force my hand, or simply cut me off.

Any advice welcome, thank you.

I'm not sure how you got that from what I posted, Ambivalent. I just don't relate to that blog at all. Or maybe the blog isn't a good example of what you mean. Can you elaborate?

Although I have found rejection difficult (who doesn't?) it's the same with any sense of failure, even when rejection is no part of it. And the blog is specifically about romantic rejection and imagining future scenes and all this stuff I don't relate to. What has hurt me in the rejection stakes is when you think you know and trust someone (as a friend, not romatically) then they seriously hurt you. Or people treating me in an appalling way whether they know me or not, as if I'm not human.

In a way it's not the rejection itself that is so frightening, but the unpredictability of it; which makes it impossible to keep yourself safe from it. And how are you supposed to react when someone you trusted is suddenly treating you completely differently?

As well as the weird politics where people will treat some people appallingly and no one gives a shit, but others are considered such lovely people, but are merely popular for no apparent reason.

Re. the things i've found traumatisisng - the being rejected by a friendship group was just one example. That was horrible because it was basically one person but the others just went along with it. No-one told me why (until years later). [Another person in the group used to get pissed and be a complete bitch, violent too. But she wasn't rejected. These things go around my mind sometimes and I wonder why I'm expected to have a significantly higher standard of behaviour than others/be far more considerate.]

Anyway, there's tons of stuff. Incidents, situations, whatever. But they won't go away. And also I feel stupid for struggling to get over them.

That last sentence is the saddest. You're rejecting yourself

I'm sorry, those last posts are a bit rambly. Was feeling weirdly shaky and exhausted waiting for dinner to kick in and blood sugar to rise, i think it was (that's another thing - is this weird? I seem to shut down when I need to eat, I have to plan this carefully! Have been binge-watching "The island with Bear Grylls" and reckon I'd last on the island until dinnertime ).

One thing I have been thinking about... I don't know if Im doing entirely the wrong thing as there seem to be two extreme points of view/solutions.

Most of my life and when struggling I've tried to fit in, to understand others, if they are displeased with me in some way to rectify that. To assume it's always me who's wrong, and obviously encouraged in this view by others as it makes them right (!), as well as by the mental health sevices (who seem to assume as the self-identified patient you must always have a warped view of things/be lying and everyone you know is actually totally reasonable). I remember having a what felt like a moment of enlightenment, and thinking: when I am having a "mad" moment (emotional, remembering stuff, feeling outraged towards various people etc) - that is the real me coming through! That's the bit I need to listen to, not how I am the rest of the time when I am supressing everything! (Said this to at the time 'D'P, he was like "Nooooo..." )

My god it's liberating! Sooo much easier not to care what others think/not take it personally, when you realise they are being twatty and you don't actually have to put up with it or try to smooth things over. Just being able to feel my real feelings and not like I automatically must be in the wrong, makes it so much easier to deal with things calmly.

But obviously the massive flaw in this, is that I might just be insane, unpleasant, and with such a warped worldview I'm set to star in a future bonkers Mil/going NC thread on here...

It's a bit of a dilemma.

I suggested the BPD because you repeatedly describe an overreaction to rejection and that you seem to react as though you've suffered a severe trauma when you've experienced the breakdown of a friendship, which is classic for BPD. The people with BPD suffer a thin emotional skin and take things to heart whereas an ordinary person would simply move on. It tends tobecomes a long and confusing narrative of being victimised .. which I sort of saw a bit from your thread. I hope you don't find my opinion offensive or anything, it just struck me from my work with patients with BPD that you might find treatments for BPD helpful.

Here is some more info if youd like to read.. www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Borderline-personality-disorder/Pages/Symptoms.aspx

Also it sounds a lot like splitting when you say "either they're all twats or I'm a potential evil MIL". We all have good and bad in us, all are capable of good and bad, it's not a case of black/white you're wrong or they're wrong. Most likely you've both done good and bad in friendships and they've ended for whatever reason - nobody is perfect. If you're trying to weigh up who's the hero and the villain you could go round in circles forever and never have a clear answer.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_(psychology)

Splitting is a relatively common defense mechanism for people with borderline personality disorder.[6] One of the DSM IV-TR criteria for this disorder is a description of splitting: "a pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation".[9][10] In psychoanalytic theory, people with borderline personality disorder are not able to integrate the good and bad images of both self and others, resulting in a bad representation which dominates the good representation.

Once I'd suggest that if you think you have ASD, ask your gp for a referral for assessment.
It's interesting to note that quite a few women on the spectrum get initially and incorrectly diagnosed with BPD.

We also see a lot of cases where women have been diagnosed/sought an ASD diagnosis but have actually had BPD. There is crossover between the conditions and one is seen as more desirable than the other. But treatment for ASD won't do anything to help BPD unfortunately. I hope you get the right treatment OP.

Thanks for the explanation, Ambivalent. One of the things that I find torturously upsetting is being misunderstood, so I was a bit freaked out to be directed to a blog that I couldn't relate to at all!

I didn't say "either they're all twats or I'm a potentially evil Mil" though. Obviously I presented the worst case scenario, to show how potentially damaging it could be to follow that line of thought if I'm wrong. It was also intended to be mildly darkly humourous, although I guess that didn't come across.
I'm not categorising people as twats in general though, I understand the grey areas. However, someone who is a dick and oversteps boundaries about one thing is likely to do so with another. It's not about them being 100% twat, it's about knowing where you stand with people, who can be trusted with what, who needs to be kept at arms length or constantly reassess boundaries.

I do find professionals in particular seem to miss that my standard response for most of my life has been to placate people at all costs, assume I must be wrong somewhere or deserving of poor treatment, etc, rather than to recognise twattery and walk away or stand my ground. Even when I've been pretty sure the other person is in the wrong I've still desperately tried to please them in the hope that they will be nicer to me. The experience of being able to calmly say, no you are wrong on this, because abc, is fairly new to me. I'm coming at the whole thing from the opposite direction than assumed, iyswim.

Mind you, someone who is "lovely" to some people but actively chooses to be a dick to others, isn't "part lovely", are they? (As oppose to someone who is a mixture of poisitive and negative traits towards everybody). They are a dick and being nice to certain people for social brownie points or something.

But anyway, the question remains as to how you assess whether you're right or the other person is?

Is there "treatment" for ASD? I thought there was just support, maybe, although not for adults.

Am on waiting list for assessment. List quite long, will be next year sometime.

I have noticed on more recent times speaking to the crisis team that they seem to be much, much more pleasant and supportive to me since potential ASD has been wafted around. I'm kind of hoping it's coincidence (don't speak to them often). Thing is, if it is to do with a different perception of me due to potnetial ASD, that's awful, because it has actually helped so why on earth not speak to me the same way if BPD!

Actually I think the whole diagnostic thing isn't accurate.... I don't seem to fit anywhere. I seem to be mildly a lot of things but not ticking enough boxes for diagnosis. Fairly anxious, fairly depressed, but nothing clear cut. I seem to be strangely more disabled by it all than my apparent mental state would suggest.

Ambivalent How are you so sure they actually have BPD? I thought it was actually quite difficult (for want of a better word!) to get an ASD diagnosis as an adult female?

Mind you, someone who is "lovely" to some people but actively chooses to be a dick to others, isn't "part lovely", are they? (As oppose to someone who is a mixture of poisitive and negative traits towards everybody). They are a dick and being nice to certain people for social brownie points or something.

A person can absolutely be part lovely. There is good and bad in everyone. Nobody is 100% this or that, and you can never assume someone's motivations from a distance in such a sweeping way. Maybe they just like the other person better so are nice to them. It's not always some dark manipulative scheme, if you see what I mean? It goes back to heroes vs. villains.

A lot of diagnostic criteria overlaps. That is the nature of psychiatric diagnoses. That's why you need a skilled team to set a diagnostic label.

I am sure they have BPD because of their behaviours over time. Often women are taken on as ASD on caseload and as they're managed over a year or so, behaviours come up that are representative of BPD, and the patient responds well to BPD-style treatments.

There is a lot of grey area in any medical diagnosis and psych is no exception. It's just that a lot of your descriptions jumped out as reminding me of BPD.

A diagnostic label will often change treatment because of a) stigma and b) whether the treatment works. Some staff subscribe to the idea that personality disorders are often intractable and impossible to work with. Others see that differently. ASD may attract more "pity" as it's a type of learning disability, whereas PD is more complex.

Getting an ASD diagnosis is not that hard as an adult (and being female doesn't really come into it), you just need to be assessed by a psychiatrist.

Are you often in touch with the crisis team? Are you already "in the system" as it were?

A person can absolutely be part lovely. There is good and bad in everyone. Nobody is 100% this or that, and you can never assume someone's motivations from a distance in such a sweeping way.

I think if someone chooses to be nice only to certain people, that "lovely" is inaccurate as an overarching statement, made by the people they are "lovely" to. (Although of course those people may well not know what the person is like to others so from their POV the person appears lovely.) Also anyone who has been "lovely" to me but shitty to others has, in turn, turned on me too. I find insincere people who's values and outlook change wildly across situations very difficult.

And I'm not assuming motivations, I'm trying to work out why they would behave like this. Deciding some people are somehow worth treating pleasantly seems the only plausible explanation, especially considering the way people increasingly seem to treat interations as transactions. Perhaps there is another explanation though. The behaviour is observed, it's the motivation that baffles me. Although it does seem to fit in with a kind of pack mentality, and a whole kind of social hierarchy that I just don't partake in.

I didn't suggest it was a "dark manipulative scheme" (why do you keep putting words in my mouth?), but on some level they discriminate between people. I don't think men gather togther to work out how to oppress women, but that doesn't mean there's no such thing as sexism.

A lot of diagnostic criteria overlaps. That is the nature of psychiatric diagnoses.

It's more that I seem to have a little bit of various things but without fully being able to tick boxes. I literally don't have enough symptoms to "qualify" (?!) as having BPD, although that's not to say I'm not a spectrum somewhere form "mentally healthy" (good luck defining that!) to "offically ticks enough boxes for BPD".

I may tick enough boxes for an offical diagnosis of anxiety, and definitely count as at least mildly depressed (up from severely, so that's an improvement). But as I'm sure you know, once BPD is on the cards everything else can get forgotton and seen as facets of BPD.

I also have various trauma symptoms so who knows. I find the suggested alternative approach - is it called formulation? - interesting. The idea that you assess the person and formulate where their specific difficulties are, rather than them needing a diagnosis as such.

Getting an ASD diagnosis is not that hard as an adult (and being female doesn't really come into it), you just need to be assessed by a psychiatrist.

This flies in the face of everything I've heard or read about ASD assessment.

Are you often in touch with the crisis team? Are you already "in the system" as it were?

Yes, sort of. I'm in the gap between primary and secondary care. Secondary services locally have been decimated, some very ill people discharged. Mind you their criteria baffles me as I also know of some people coping well but still with CPNs etc! (Not that they shouldn't have CPNs, but that the criteria of who is seen and who isn't doesn't make sense from the outside). I know someone who frequently storms out of therapy sessions but is still seen by them, which I was lead to believe is a huge no-no, for example (I've never done it!)

I "have access" to the crisis team. Any attempts to get any therapy or anything now met with "wait until the ASD assessment".

I'm not putting words into your mouth. I'm not in your head and we communicate via words on a page, sometimes things get lost or misconstrued. I never meant any offence, but I'm treating you the same as any poster I've spoken to in the past and nobody has attacked me before for simply trying to help.

It's not difficult to get a diagnosis of ASD as a female adult if you HAVE ASD. Accessing an assessment may be difficult but once you're assessed and you fulfil the diagnosis criteria - you'll get the diagnosis.

But if BPD is a better fit diagnostically - that's the diagnosis and it won't be revised. And I know that upsets you OP but try not to pin all your hopes on an Autism spectrum diagnosis as it might then make you feel 100 times worse if it doesn't happen.

What I've heard/read suggusts the problem isn't just with being referred for assessment but also because the way the traits manifest in women has been overlooked in the actual assessments.

I had hoped it wouldn't be too much of an issue as it's started to be more recognised in women; and apparently the assessment place here is v good.

I have already made it clear in the thread that I don't WANT to be diagnosed with ASD. I'm scared that I have it, because I want to be able to fix everything and then I won't be able to.

A bit concerned about the ASD vs BPD thing. As if there are no other diagnoses...
This whole area of diagnosis seems to be missing bits. Its frightening when your abusive partner has fially crossed the line so far that even you realise, and then the crisis team (males) recommend you should stay in the relationship... like they are so blinded by pathologising everything inot BPD they assume you must be wrong.

I hope all that makes sense, I am really shaky and jittery and muddle headed with lots of memories flooding in today.

Sorry, what i meant by that last bit is there doesn't seem to be a diagnosis that remotely adequately sums up my experiences and that of other women struggling somewhere in the region of ASD/complex trauma/BPD etc
Wouldnt be surprised if I end with a loads of "traits of..." diagnoses.

And I used to think there was no such thing as BPD and it was all a terrible injustice against those suffering complex trauma... but then I have SEEN people be the BPD caricature! This is weird, because it seems the people diagnosed BPD, even if they do have BPD symptoms, are suffering complex trauma and have sought help. But then there's those who do actually fit the nasty cariacture of BPD but they do not seek help and are not stigmatised and labelled, and generally seem happy enough - it seems to affect those around them but not them. So seems so strange and awful that those clearly hurting receive the judgement/are assumed to be like those who in all likelihood are the ones who hurt them!

OP, just wondering why it is that you feel you need a diagnosis? This is not meant to sound derogatory in any way but just wanted to know what you are hoping it will give you.
You sound a lot like me a few years ago. I grew up with emotional abuse and seemed to attract a similar type of person as I got older which meant I had some very abusive relationships and friendships.
I was diagnosed with depression and anxiety disorder quite a few years ago and have had various types of counselling along with ADs and beta blockers. I spent a lot of time desperate to find out 'what was wrong with me' as I didn't seem to be able to have normal relationships like everyone else.
I've done a lot of work on my own self esteem and the reasons why I'm like the way I am. It's still on going and probably will be for the rest of my life. However, I no longer have people in my life that treat me like crap and I also find I'm less bothered by other people's treatment of me.
I think I wanted to be diagnosed with something more solid than depression as it meant that there would be a possibility of just taking some pills and my life being better. Or a least having a reason for feeling shit. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it is possible to change how you view the world and how you view yourself. It's not easy and can take years but it definitely is possible.

It's not that I feel I need a diagnosis as such, but if I am on the spectrum it's better to know about it. Like with anything.

OP - if you'd be seeing a specific Adult Autism assessment service then that's their bread and butter - they're experts and will be extremely familiar with how it manifests in women. They'll also be very familiar with assessing women with a previous BPD diagnosis and usually, that was the appropriate diagnosis but sometimes it's incorrect.

Your threads suggest BPD might be a better fit but as you say, you might be one of those people who have traits of several things but without fulfilling the diagnostic criteria for each.

In my experience, that is often more disabling than meeting the diagnostic criteria for one or more condition as you're in a sort of no mans land of having 'bits' of things but not fulfilling full criteria.