How do you deal with people like this? Or stop being their target?

[OnceThereWasThisGirlWho]

Firstly, the karma thread got me thinking. Especially the posters saying horrible people often seem to get away with it. IME this is true - and it's true because nasty people pick their victims carefully and others think they are wonderful. As if it's all a game, where those they deem "low status" are written off whilst perceived "high status" individuals are brought onside (yes I know I sound like a psychologist!). I mean, I suppose that is human behaviour sadly, but it seems to an extreme degree (?). In the same way with groups, some people get away with poor behaviour because they are "popular" (why the hell are they popular?!) whilst others will be vilified for much less. And then of course these people also get to define the collective "reality" because they will be believed over the "low status" people.

I suppose my first question is, are most people like this? Can I meet nice people who actually form friendships with individuals without all the weird power games?

I've also recently been having distressing memories about an incident almost a decade ago. This incident illustrates something perfectly that I struggle with, and links in to the above. What happened was, I'd moved into a new shared house - one guy rented the place and let out the other two rooms. (Other occupied by bloke never there as always at partner's house). We seemed to get on well, and after a few days ended up sat up late one night chatting about all sorts. He told me about this woman he'd met that apparently his friends were warning him to stay away from because she was a single mother and a bit older than him (). I said don't be ridiculous, sounds fab, blah blah. Within a week they were not only together but inseparable, and he was helping with her mum's shopping and things. The second week, I met her, after a night out - they had also been out and got in before me and we merrily finished off a bottle of wine and seemed to "bond" or whatever. All good.

Following week for no apparent reason I was asked to move out (meanwhile I never saw him as he always stayed at hers). I was and asked why, and told it was because of all the late night wild parties I'd been having. Blatent lie - there was nothing that could remotely be construed as a late wild party! Or even any part of that description. It was completely bonkers. He claimed the neighbours had complained. I had no idea how to handle it - he was lying to me, and he knew I knew he was lying. (I checked with the pleasant and friendly neighbours about parties in case someone in the vicinity had been doing that and it was mistakenly attributed to me. They'd heard nothing and were as baffled as me).

But of course, I had to go. He had all the power. Had about 10 days notice (until end of month) The day I left was horrific and the police got involved (in hindsight I was assaulted, by both he and his new partner, but I didn't frame it as such so didn't tell the police). I'm guessing that this guy's new partner was the reason I got kicked out.

The thing is, this is such a bonkers thing to happen that it sounds like I'm making it up. I suppose most people would think that I must be denying having parties, or lying about some other aspect/covering something up. It's frightening, it makes me feel so vulnerable, because I know people can be dicks to me and get away with it. Luckily in this incident my friends believed me because this guy was the "unknown" person, and two of them had called for me the night before I left and he was unpleasant to them.

But this sort of thing seems to happen to me. People are unpredictably really vile, and if it's by someone in the group/known to the group, as the (relative) newbie, I'm the one who gets disbelieved and/or cut out. If it's not by someone known to the group, there's still the issue of appearing to be making stuff up/being a "drama queen" because, to put it bluntly, this amount of bizarre crap should not happen to one person. There's so much I wish I could tell someone but I just can't.

People seem willing to believe horrible lies about me, and I always seem to be the target for controlling bullying types. I was "wendied" and cut off from someone I'd thought was a good friend (male) when they got a girlfriend. (She was verbally and physically agressive to him and controls who he sees). Another friend who was also pushed out a bit (we discussed it), moved away. She recently visitied and suddenly is all pally with this awful woman - to the point of believing lies about me. I just do not understand this, and it is deeply upsetting.

So my second question is, how do I stop people like her targetting me?

Finally, there's other stuff. I have mental health issues - started off as being quite messed up from problems at home and as I got into abusive relationships and had some awful expereinces I seemed to aquire a load of trauma that unleashed itself in my mid 20s even as everything else was finally going well. This didn't exactly help me making friends in the new area I'd moved to. A problem I find is that people write me off, but being friends with the oddballs who accept me either seems to mean dealing with severely dysfunctional people, people I don't actually feel I have much in common with, or those who do become friends and get it together and stop being oddballs who then cut me out because I don't belong in their fab new life (despite encouraging them before!)

I'm in my early 30s now and want to give up tbh. Im so sorry this post is so long, I keep crying. Just finally - I know someone will mention it - I'm waiting for an ASD assessment, however I can read nonverbal cues quite well (apparently - obvs I wouldn't know!).

Secondly, I saw a therapist for about 18 months. It really helped with self confidence and boundaries, but the world the therapist lives in seems to be different from mine. Hence me being sure there's something I'm doing that makes me a target. Also, having boundaries and self worth means I draw the line sooner with people and stand up for myself more, which obviosuly doesn't go down well. I feel so stuck, if I'm nice to people they walk all over me, if I calmly put down boundaries or stand up for myself they go bonkers as if trying to force my hand, or simply cut me off.

Any advice welcome, thank you.

I do sort of swing between thinking it's definitely ASD and then thinking, no it can't be because xyz. Actually something related, ADHD (is that considered part of the spectrum now?) might be more fitting... I don't know. Apparently the diagnostic service round here is quite good though so I guess I'll know in the end.

Also, I don't mean any offence to anyone with ASD, I don't see them as "broken"; in fact the opposite in many ways. A more advanced form of human or something! But from my point of view it feels like my life's work is to understand human behaviour and find my place so to not be able to do that would be... difficult.

It's strange; when I think back to approcahing mental health services after some years of struggling, in my late teens, I feel as if I was looking for something, yearning for something, that I have since found. And yet cannot put it into words still! But alongside that, it hasn't solved all the problems. There's no longer something missing, but there is something not understood. ASD has crossed my mind before, but only recently did I discover you can be on the spectrum and still read body language.

Re. what happened the day I left the house and the police came - it doesn't actually matter, does it? I mean, that is what I am having nightmares about, but the crucial bit is when he decided to get rid of me for no reason (although if he'd said he felt too weird living with a woman and given a reasonable timescale to leave, it would have been ok). Definitely entering bonkers territory when the "wild party" excuse was given. It is just mind-bending to have someone looking you in the eye and saying, oh it's all the wild parties, when you both know they're lying. And once they've deviated from reality to that extent anything goes really. Plus often in these kind of situations, the other person is stuck for some reason or another (lack of housing to flee to quickly, money issues etc). The crucial bit is the very first point where you can tell something is amiss (red flag) and how to deal with that, or even better how to spot it coming and avoid it.

I can't sleep and want to write this down, so...
Bearing in mind this guy hadn't been staying in the house and I'd only seen him once in passing in 2-3 weeks, the night before I left he and his new DP actually stayed in the house, and had a romantic meal together. I was going out with friends, but was too scared to go downstairs and so my friends called for me. He wouldn't let them in; they phoned me from the front step.

Next day, I got up and went to get a cup of tea before packing up the rest of my things in good time for my friend arriving to help me transport stuff. Thank goodness I got dressed before going downstairs instead of in my pjs like usual. When I came back up they were in my room. I asked what they were doing and they said "You have to leave now". I was like, "erm, my friend is coming with the car this afternoon" but they said they were going out and wouldn't wait. I said no problem, I can post the keys through the door or take them to the landlord (this guy was subletting with landlord's permission). Bear in mind that I didn't actually have to leave until the following day that was the agreed day and I'd paid for, I was just leaving early due to friend with car being available.

But they said no, I had to leave now and both grabbed me and started dragging me to the door. I tried to grab my bag but they snatched it away. I managed to grab my phone and I remember her trying to prise it out of my fingers but I kept hold. They manhandled me down the stairs and chucked me out the front door. (Oh btw once out there I noticed my lovely table, that they'd been having dinner at the night before, put outside in the rain.) It was November, it was raining, it was cold. I had no shoes on and no coat. My heart was racing and I was shaking. I walked towards the high street (this was in a road leading off it) because I just felt I needed to go where there were people. I called the police as I was doing so. A woman came out of a nearby pub and took me in there, she was the pub landlady and also called the police and got them to get a move on. I think someone bought me a coke.

The police came back with me and I managed to get through to (different) friend who came early with van, police brought the rest of my stuff out and packed it up etc. Oh also they'd been chucking my stuff out of the upstairs window. God, it was just so horrible horribly cruel. How can people be so evil? What a revolting couple.

You said it! Fucking nut jobs.

Girl, I've had similar. And I was stuck in the depths of S France. Old school friend - 'friend for life' . Drugs, it turned out. And I thought, we all thought, he'd kicked all that back in uni days when we were all expecting any day the news he was dead.

Etc.

I just can't take that stuff seriously. Not that it doesn't hurt - but I can't take it personally iyswim. There is no way anyone deserves such appalling treatment.

Yes I know what you mean, it's not personal exactly in this instance, which helps. But it terrifies me and makes me feel unsafe and on edge and it's that that I am struggling to deal with - I feel like my brain goes over and over this stuff trying to work out how to stay safe next time.

ps. Good morning!

At one point i was pressed against a barn trying to hide/run and a local monsieur happened by. Frantically I whispered 'help! help me!' but couldn't think how to say it in french I was in such a state. Monsieur smiled benevolently and meandered on. I can't tell you the despair.

No phone signal (depths of countryside); no way of knowing how to call the police. I ended up gathering my things together - shaking so much - and walking miles and miles - where I didn't know. I hid my case in a haystack and walked and walked, all the while wondering if I'd be abducted or raped bcs the place was so deserted; ducking behind trees/into ditches when I heard a car, terrified 'friend' would appear in his vintage mercedes, high as a kite on everything, and force me into the car.

Yeah, dark stuff happens. Skate on by.

Cant sleep either. Had a bad dream about my mum. Don't know why I mentioned the vintage mercedes. Setting the scene (because it sounds like something out of a thriller).

Mornin'

I hope I don't sleep too late in the morning. Don't want to miss the Archers or DID or JAM

You sound traumatised by the incident. Not surprising. What is that treatment people get when they've been in eg a war zone (traumatising experience)? Can't think of the name of it but I remember the Beirut hostages getting it and wishing I could get it after an abusive marriage

Do you get flashbacks? It sounds like PTSD lovely

HOpe my french story hasn't freaked you out. Sorry if so

No, just got nice and distracted watching comedy on youtube :)
I hope you manage to get some sleep

I'm probably similar in some ways - honest, genuinely nice and have occasionally seemed like a target for bullies randomly over the years. However I have a quiet steely take no shit attitude. I will be very nice/firm/polite/fair/calm when laying boundaries and I will make unkind people reflect or people taking advantage stop. I am able to forgive some close people, letting our relationship deepen but others I can let go and not hold on to upset. I move away emotionally and although polite, won't give my time or attention really.

Also op with paid work consider agreeing the terms by text before doing the work. Clarity can help with everyone's expectations.

With the incident above, I recon that that they had the issue and spurred each other on. Their actions seem strangely disfunctional. Immature and not he norm. I would suspect that their relationship will be a road crash emotionally. If they are that physically abusive to you, they will be the same to each other! The incident had very little to do with you. You could have been anyone really. They wanted the space to themselves or she perceived you as some kind of threat to her relationship with him. It happened such a long time ago, do let it go. Don't use it to define your reality now. You were just unlucky at the time.

I am drawn to lots of different types of people but they are all generally caring/kind, quietly determined/passionate, humble and status wise could be anything. I am not impressed by flashy cars or big incomes, although some of my friends do happen to have material wealth.

OP

We are all dysfunctional. I am and you are too, even though we are both decent and kind.

Others have all different levels and types of dysfunction, some people go right up to being really abusive dicks (like the awful flat share couple). Yet they form relationships and people seem to like them because the dysfunction is not there always, people are more complex than just their dysfunctions.

You seem to be wanting to be able to spot and categorise the good people and bad people. It's fools gold. You will need several lifetimes of experience to catalogue all the character traits you will come across to cross match with red flags. Sure there are some glaring ones, but I don't think we are talking about that here.

The only thing that is achievable is to figure out your own boundaries. You are beautifully introspective so I think you can quite easily decide what is important to you from friendships.

Similarly, the Law of Friendships is that you will have an initial honeymoon period where you really feel you've connected with someone great (high status). Then you get let down and irritated by them over all sorts of things (they fall to low status). If you get past that and the friendship is intact, they remain 'low status' because you see their faults in all their glory, but they are still a valuable person. What I am clumsily saying is that the only high status people you will ever meet are those you haven't got to know properly yet!!

I relate to you somewhat. I have spent most of my life being a 'follower' and a pleaser and I could feel others spotting this. It is now in my 40's I have a more genuinely confident attitude and it reflects how other people respond to me. I like it. I also form friendships very very slowly!

Ha springy, I have an eerie similar French experience, only in the north of France, and with a female friend! Got stuff to do now- will come back with more reflections later.

.. the only high status people you will ever meet are those you haven't got to know properly yet!!

Yes! For those of us who have been abused in the past it is hard to stay calm and steady when others faults become apparent. Re is it a serious fault? Or run of the mill? Aka am I going to be (seriously) abused again.

Therapists talk about being on high alert bcs of past abuse - in order to spot the signs to avoid it happening again. Constantly being on high alert is exhausting - and also not an accurate barometer, ultimately.

I've recently become aware of my faults. I'm embarrassed it has taken me so long! I thought I was a generally good person who meant well and my faults ('dysfunctions') were low level and forgivable in relation to the whole picture. Not so it turns out: hurt people hurt people. I haven't seen my faults bcs I've been so busy focusing on others faults in order to survive.

There's so much here that sounds familiar to me. A lot of which has been brilliantly covered by others, so just a couple of things from my experience:

I found that being told I'm autistic helped a lot.

It made me realise that my inability to cope with people lying and behaving in really illogically horrible ways pains me separately from their behaviour being abusive.

Because I simply can't make sense of someone, for example, making me look like the bad guy in order to justify ditching me. When they could just say that they didn't want me any more or had been pretending to want me for for x, y, z reasons.

It is partly traumatic, it is partly character, but it does appear also to be neurological, from what I've read and heard from professionals and other autistic people. I'm just not wired up for dishonesty and manipulation, at least not the kind where I would have to deceive myself as well (and even survival-lying to abusers drains me when I have to do it; I avoid it as much as absolutely possible). It's not a universal autistic trait, if there is such a thing, but it is one, apparently.

So anyway, when other people do it it causes me pain in the same way I get sensory pain; it's hard to describe what I mean, but if you get that overwhelmed physical hurting sensation from anything sensory, that's the kind of thing I mean. And that's in addition to emotional pain. So only dealing with the emotional pain of it doesn't help me as much as it would someone who wasn't autistic, I think, because for me that's not the full problem.

What does help me is to remember that it is normal and reasonable for me to be affected very badly, given the way I am, and that people who behave like this may be fundamentally Different from me [that's individual; it doesn't work for everyone by any means]. That does exacerbate my feeling of loneliness, but it does clarify everything, which gives me a bit of peace of mind.

I don't find that this means that most people are fundamentally incomprehensible to me, more that in order to comprehend them I've had to accept that they have different motivations and priorities to mine, and are comfortable with different things to me, eg. comfortable with social climbing behaviours, uncomfortable with honesty.

Understanding that that may be partly because I'm autistic - I do have different values but then again, my values are ones that I consider logical and sensible to have, so they may not be totally separate from the autism - has only helped.

Being open about it has helped attract other people who feel the same, though it seems to take a while.

What I wanted to say about practical steps was that I don't have friendship groups any more. I haven't since school. I'm not sure that any one of my friends knows any of the others.

It doesn't feel like I'm emotionally driven to avoid forming friendship groups, but it was something that was recommended by someone involved in a bullying recovery group I was part of for a while in my late teens, and it made so much sense to me that I suspect it may have "stuck" cognitively as much as anything. If only having individual friends is something one is ok with, it is a valid way of proceeding.

I was going to only write a paragraph and this has got way out of hand! And I'm not convinced it's very readable, so sorry if it's just a screed of blah. If anyone replies, I might not see it depending on how much I'm having to rush through things, so if I don't reply to a reply it's because of that, rather than because of anything said. Best wishes, OP.

Great post, Western

springy It's interesting you mention a man driving past. This is something I've noticed, across situations (ie. often not involving me) ... people sort of don't realise the urgency of sitaution, or worse, assume something suspicious is afoot with the person needing help. I'm not just talking about strangers, either (where the potential "helper" might be suspicious or worried about own safety) but a sort of reaction to someone in trouble as if the person is infected with something and everyone else must steer clear; an implication that they somehow must have caused the bad situation, without actually saying it. I wonder if it's something to do with the "just world fallacy" or something? People don't want to believe bad stuff happend to those who dont "deserve" it.

If you get past that and the friendship is intact, they remain 'low status' because you see their faults in all their glory, but they are still a valuable person.

IME this usually happens gradually. If it happens suddenly as a big event, they generally either expect to steamroller over me or I sucessfully define my boundaries and they excommunicate me.

Thank you for your post, I appreciate it and some food for thought, even though I appear to just have picked at it.

Western It made me realise that my inability to cope with people lying and behaving in really illogically horrible ways pains me separately from their behaviour being abusive.

YY!
A sort of torturous pain rather than just... pain. It's the way it doesn't appear to make sense, as well as the fear because that means it's unpredictable. I suppose this is one of the areas where trauma and ASD can be hard to disentangle. (This is also one area where I think people with ASD might be a more advanced form of human )

It doesn't feel like I'm emotionally driven to avoid forming friendship groups, but it was something that was recommended by someone involved in a bullying recovery group ...

This is interesting. I will ponder this further. I suppose because I've generally always been looking to make new friends, the idea of being introduced to new people by a current friend or aquaintance seems like a good thing. And is in fact how I have made most of my friends. (I've also had problems being friends with separate people who don't like each other) But it does mean you're always the newbie in the group and thus in a vulnerbale position. But then again if someone is extending the hand of friendship they tend to invite me to group events! Argh. Thought needed...

Thank you all for the replies x

I do feel like I shouldn't be traumatised by stuff that's happened.

That's like saying you shouldn't have broken your leg on that ski slope. We like to think we're SO in control of our lives (and current pop psychology more than supports this idea eg positive thinking etc) but we largely are not. Stuff happens.

And, apart from anything, I find the whole concept of 'should' troublesome.

I can really empathise with feeling an almost physical, tearing pain if I'm let down, or if someone alters arrangements at the last minute. And the awful thing is, if you want to carry on having friends, you can't even let them know how it's affected you. Or they'll get upset, and dump you because you make them feel guilty. So you have to pretend it's just fine (shrug). No wonder so many people on the spectrum also suffer from anxiety and depression .

Its not personal
Its a reflection of them
In most cases
Doesnt everyone lie a bit
Sorry for your experience they do sound vile people to treat another this way and you are worth so much more than that.

Not everyone manipulates to cause harm, even if thats the end result and some sadly do it for kicks

Really interesting thread of different views but it does sound like the incident traumatised you and maybe youve experienced continously withlittle chance for recovery inbetween?

Maybe you might think you could be easier on yourself

commonly symptomatic of ptsd to not want to mix i I believe

springy I meant more that the things I've experienced don;t seem severe enough to be traumatised. Maybe the experience I have written about here, but there are loads of "lesser" things that have had the same effect on me.

I do sort of recognise them as trauma but feel silly to be traumatised by them, or that something is terribly wrong with me to find those things traumatic. It's the drip drip nature of these things too - like loads of micro traumas adding up, I sort of feel one big trauma would be easier to cope with. I am probably wrong on this... grass is always greener etc. But it would at least have the advantage of being able to say "x happened" and people would understand more, I would't doubt myself or feel bad for not coping with things, and crucially, the mental health services might actually recognise it as trauma. Oh, and I'd be able to heal reather than feeling I am constantly living in a battleground.

You sound like someone describing your experiences of domestic abuse - without being hit. I've got the t-shirt on that one, as it happens.

I do know what you mean. In my case, ££££k in therapy addressing 'indistinct' childhood abuse.

Yes, you do sometimes wonder if you're making it all up - or at least making a fuss about nothing much. But to come back to the ski injury, the evidence is in the damage.

Been trying to reply to this for days but struggling to put it into words.

Basically, domestic is abuse it exactly what it is not like. (Well apart from the bits that are that precisely, but I already felt "allowed" to be traumtised by them).

When someone says "Oh I feel it's not serious enough..." and then goes on to decribe domestic abuse, or other v traumatic thing, that is different. If they eventually confessed they were having flashbacks of someone looking at them funny in a supermarket, it would seem a bit OTT.

Mine isn't as bad as that (!) but there are so many, many smaller things that have affected me in the same way/same pattern as things that are more "serious". So I might realise I am avoiding walking down a particular street because it reminds me of being excluded from a friendship group, which makes my heart race, face burn, feel sick, and floodgates of supressed memories and emotion open. I might have nightmares about this years later. I might wake up in the mornings with a load of memories of the time flooding my mind and have to battle through to cope. Or I might get all that from just one unpleasant incident with one person. It's a bit over the top, iyswim.

Sounds like BPD:

www.borderlineblog.com/ways-to-head-off-rejection-before-it-really-hurts.php#sthash.sd1wjdH7.dpbs