Would you divorce this man?

[Changednameforthisthread1981]

I'm a regular but worried about being found by dh.

I have been married 6 years, 2 children (3&6). I have asked him to move out and I intend on seeking a divorce. But then I find myself questioning myself. I would so appreciated some thoughts. Am I expecting too much?

The positives
My husband is a fundamentally good man.

I trust him absolutely
He is a fantastic provider. Works very hard and is now on a very high income that allows me to be a SAHM and for us to enjoy a very comfortable life
He is a brilliant father. Loves being a father. They adore him

The negatives
He is a very hard man. Unsympathetic if I'm ill or worried about something
He is a critical man. If I do anything 'wrong', he picks me up on it. He will assume that I'm always at fault in any situation with a third party e.g. Messed up dinner reservation? It is because I did something wrong. Taxi running late? I just have cocked up timings.
He gets moody, and they are very stony moods that can go on.

He is quite cold. Used to be lots of affection, but now no 'I love you', no pet names, very limited cuddles. I continue to give this.
He cannot deal with stress and get incredibly uptight. Which is odd, considering he has a highly stressful job. But if the slightest thing goes wrong, he will have a tantrum. Will cancel plans, refuse to do what we'd agreed. Over very small things e.g. He didn't wear a suit jacket to a christening, when he saw all the other men were wearing suit jackets, he stormed off outside the church, leaving me alone with bewildered friends and our children.

So you see it's nothing like the hardship some
Mumsnetters experience, but it does feel like life with him is not a pleasure. We have our good times, and that's what stops me going full throttle, but the good times are outweighed by the bad times. We have done relate, twice, and will not do again.

Would love some thoughts.

Thank you

The children "do not" have to tip toe around him

He gets moody, and they are very stony moods that can go on.
He is quite cold. Used to be lots of affection, but now no 'I love you', no pet names, very limited cuddles. I continue to give this.
He cannot deal with stress and get incredibly uptight. Which is odd, considering he has a highly stressful job. But if the slightest thing goes wrong, he will have a tantrum. Will cancel plans, refuse to do what we'd agreed. Over very small things e.g. He didn't wear a suit jacket to a christening, when he saw all the other men were wearing suit jackets, he stormed off outside the church, leaving me alone with bewildered friends and our children

You sure about that OP? If they are now they soon will be.

Op, I am sure my mother minimised her own situation. She had to, in order to stay of course

The perspective is my own, and that of my siblings.

But it was that bad. Your dc are still young. For a few years yet they will follow your cue and try to appease him and be happy when he is in a magnanimous mood

They might put their own confused feelings to one side to gain his approval. Appeasing a difficult man will teach your children some very damaging lessons. My teenage years can attest to that

And then, like me, they will start to blame you for subjecting them to him and your relationship with them may be forever damaged

Don't kid yourself they don't see. They do. They feel every cold blast, they see every contemptuous look, they hear every snarled word

Yes, it's depressing.

I hate it when people say this, but "I could have written your post."

DH is the same, the good points and the bad points.

I vacillate between thinking it is unacceptable, and then meeting friends in much worse situations and thinking I have it easy.

When I am more positive about him it's usually because I'm in a good place myself (i.e. not ill or anxious and everything else going well) and also because I have put together a theory about his behaviour based on his upbringing or the stresses he is under. (He did not have a particularly great childhood) I can tolerate / excuse him a lot more when I am in this state of mind.

But when the shit hits the fan in family life, or something stressful happens (that is stressful for all of us) he cannot be relied upon to deal with it like an adult. Which shifts all responsibility on to me.

I look at the future and I imagine when my dparents die. I am sure that he will not be able to deal with the stress of it all, and I'll get no sympathy from him at all, even though I'll be the one of the two of us most affected.

Your partner should be your rock. They should have your back when the chips are down. If they make the normal stresses in life (such as bereavement etc) all about them then they are no such thing

I can't imagine feeling safe in a relationship like that. Peace of mind is paramount to me.

He is good to the children but horrid to you. No doubt they see him being horrid to you and you pretending it is fine. That must be confusing. I wonder if they think that's what to expect from a good marriage. You yourself seem to think it might be OK (it is not).

I don't kick up a big fuss when he has a tizzy fit because I don't want to upset the children, and also I don't really "feel" it. They must think you consider his behaviour correct then. He stormed off publicly and left them bewildered over jacket-gate and you smoothed it over. Child interpretation: that is an acceptable thing for a grown man to do and/or a woman should not complain about a man's bad behaviour.

He is right about one thing. It is who he is and he won't change. Either you accept him treating you like this or you step away. Asking him to change personality is not an acceptable solution.

He can co-parent successfully after you divorce. Is there any reason why he couldn't?

The best thing you have listed for him is that he is a truly good father. Separation doesn't stop that. In fact, it might improve it further as he will spend more time alone with them.

All so interesting. I plan to read latest few carefully later this evening. Thank you

ChangedName AnyFucker describes my childhood , it's like reading something I've written myself. My DM suffered years of moodiness, coldness and criticism from my F. It taught me to never express my own feelings and to fade into the background so I wouldn't be noticed or upset my F. My DM minimised his behaviour until his lack of respect for her was so blatant (several incidents) that she left him in her late 50s.
As a result of my upbringing, I married a similar man to my F as I thought it was normal. I also spent many years being treated in a similar way to my DM. My sister also had many emotionally abusive relationships.
Although you might think your children aren't impacted by his behaviour they will.

What do you get out of this relationship now, what needs of yours does this man meet?.

You'd like to think he is a good father because its somehow easier. Many women in poor relationships write that about their man when they cannot think of anything positive themselves to write about him. How do you feel about him when you look at him?. What goes through your mind?. He is not a good father to his children if he treats you, their mother, like this. He does this also because he can. He feels entitled to do this and thinks there is nothing wrong in doing that. I sincerely hope that your children do not blame themselves for their parents problems; that is not beyond the realms of possibility here. I wonder if they are also becoming hyper vigilent to his moods towards you and or super responsible themselves?. Its not their fault or yours for that matter that your H has decided to conduct his own private war against you.

I daresay he can be nice and kind to those in the outside world; many abusive people are quite plausible to those outsiders. You have seen the reality of him however.

Children are perceptive and they certainly pick up on all the vibes both good and bad. They see his contempt towards you as their mother. Is this really what you also want to teach them about relationships because currently they are learning a shedload of damaging lessons from both of you.

Madinche, he was very in to fitness and that was a good outlet. Nowadays he really struggled to find any time. When he manages a swim, I do see a difference in his mood, positively.

Itcontinues, I read your post with interest. Sounds very similar indeed. Do you plan on divorce or hoping things change?

More I read your post it continues, the more it resonates

Changedname - its a shame he can't find time for any balance or other outlets - it may well take the pressure off you.

Sorry if it sounds like I'm making excuses for him. He may be a total git for all I know. But just trying to see things through what might be his perspective.

When you say that you "don't feel it" re- his tantrums, it sounds like you've detached for your sanity.

Does he use mean and disrespectful language when he not-picks and blames you?

You should not be being blamed for total nonsense, that's for sure. He sounds resentful towards you. Could he resent or not respect your position as a SAHM, or feel like he's on the periphery of the family, just earning the money.

I'm a SAHM too, so you have all my sympathies btw!

The other obvious question would be if there is still any intimacy between you (but obviously don't go there if you would rather not).

It's the fact that he is CHOOSING to be this way with you that would have me seeking divorce OP. You are giving him a fair hearing, on here and in your heart it seems but what about you? If he is a good dad he will continue to be that but you sound like you have had your love ground to dust. This is why you must end it. He won't. It suits him this way. Yu can't live your life like this forever and he has no need or desire to change. He has proved this time and time again. Make plans. Get advice. It doesn't need to be a bitter split. Try and be amicable but the fact he knows he is rotten to you should have this come as no real surprise other than that it has taken this long surely? Get legal advice at least. That way you have knowledge and will feel stronger again.

My parents stayed together for the sake of the children. Made us live in a house with two people who obviously hated each other, even if they rarely said harsh words to each other in front of us. The tension was unbelievable. It took me and my siblings years to work out what normal couple behaviour is like.

I used to go round to people's houses and be utterly amazed at how they behaved. Mums and dads giving each other a hug for no particular reason or giggling at things together or having a little moan nicely about a thing that had gone wrong, looking at each other proudly for silly things like making a nice pie or fixing the radio or looking lovely in those new shoes, you know, normal stuff. Acts of kindness confused me.

Later, of my parents I thought, "you bastards". Double bastards for blaming their misery on us, which is how my siblings and I interpret all of that "sake of the children" crap. They were just scared of the shitstorm of getting divorced and used us as a shield for it.

I rarely see either of them. Neither do my siblings. One of my siblings is in a horrible relationship, repeating the same behaviours learned as a child. Two other siblings let obviously bad relationships go on far far too long before ending them. I nearly ended a very good relationship because it didn't feel "real", it was too happy and fun. Fortunately I realised that came from a fucked up place when now DH looked at me like a loon when I suggested that proper long term relationships don't have this much fun do they, so what are we doing wrong?

Not knowing what a normal relationship feels like day to day has fucked us all up in our own ways. Don't do that to your children.

I can only add a quick thought to the other wise posts.

If your child was in such a marriage, what would your advice be to him/her?
Listen to that advice.

Why does almost everyone here give "divorce him" as default answer?

Op's husband has issues - fixable issues.

I was very uptight early years of my marriage, I stressed over every little thing and felt the constant need to be strong and act tough .

I lost Mom (single mum) as a teenager and as her only child with little emotional support from relatives, I grew into a damaged young man.

When I got married, Dw started to point things out and I realised how much damage I'd done to my family and how much I'd cheated myself. Took a while but I worked through and now in a better place and a better man.

Bet he has loads of love in his heart for you, but there must be something in his past more so that he resents his parents.

If you feel you can't work things out, then good luck with the divorce.

First off, I am so touched that complete strangers give such thoughtful full and caring responses, thank you!

Mad, you're right. He not a total got. Far from it. He's a kind good man. And I know there's some mumsnetters to whom situations like this are black/white, good/bad, but you know what... That's not always the case. And certainly not here.

Yes user, I am sure he does love me. And there is indeed a lot in his past, his parents are no angels but he will readily admit they love him and don't do anything seriously wrong and that he treats them very unfairly. When you say "it took a while", how long? Because we have been together 10 years and i would say he's been on a down ward trajectory for last five years and before then was also difficult.

My advise to my daughter would been not to have married him. He has already displayed his tendency for tantrums and remoteness before we married.

The thing is Rabbit, we do laugh together. A lot. And we used to hug a load, now hardly at all but occasionally, and certainly complaint one another. I hear what you're saying but my situation really isn't that extreme. Those who want to say that I'm making excuses, denying it etc etc, I must warn you, I just skate over them.

I have booked a solicitor app for next Friday, I am serious.

Mad, during the bad times, do you ever consider leaving?

You've already decided to divorce. I think you are right. I think you know you are right. Yes, you should expect more from a marriage.

Good on you for doing what you know to be right even though it will be difficult.

Changed - no I've never considered leaving him, despite the fact that it can be like living with a tornado and I can't fathom how he can possibly be so emotionless at times, because I know I'm still in love with him after 15 years. We have 4 DC, but he's still very much my rock, not just their dad.

If you have the solicitor booked, it sounds like you're quite resolved. People on here can only advise - you know your own mind best. Good luck and your DC will ultimately be fine as you both love them.

Bloody hell, this man does NOT need hobbies or exercise, he needs to stop the horrible behaviour! And is clearly not willing to do so.

If he refuses to change there isn't much you can do, except leave or continue living that way.

Have you told him that his behaviour is making you seriously consider leaving him? Because men like him often say that had they known they would have changed, if they realised it had gotten to that stage.

Tell him that you are looking to give it X number of months to see if he adjusts his behaviour and then you'll decide your next move.

Yup.......you had me at 'tantrum'

He just said he thought it would be an 'enormous mistake' and op shouldn't divorce him because it was '99.9% about the dcs'. I'm sorry op, that his love for you doesn't extend to caring that his behaviour is making you unhappy, and doing something about it.

I have known shocking stress in my life, I won't go in to details, but it involves my parents, it involves alcoholism, mental illness, sectioning, dementia and ultimately death. Because of this, do you think some therapy might help you? I don't mean relate, I mean therapy for you so you can work through your feelings about the reasons you've been tolerating H's behaviour, and whether there is anything you can do which might make him think again about changing, or which would make you feel more comfortable with your choice.

Other than that, there is a book called Where to Draw the Line, Healthy Boundaries for Everyday Life here which might help.

Op my parents had a marriage similar to your description. My mum eventually left more than a decade after is left home (I am the younger child). Some perspectives from their story:

• fundamentally, my dad did love my mum. But he just could not bring himself to show it / change to show it in the ways that she needed. It would have required more internal reflection and change than he had the courage for (he also had a v difficult childhood). It is kind of tragic. She (still) feels that she wasn't worth it/ valued by him. He (now) has some regrets and is lonely. But isn't doing anything about it and probably won't. They had other problems, perhaps most fundamental not having anything external they both mutually enjoyed (could be music, travel, rock climbing, it doesn't matter what: I think something external can be an external anchor when times are tough and draw you back together).
• she now is something of a walking example of the adage 'the only difference between being unhappy in a relationship and being unhappy alone is when you are in a relationship you've got someone else to blame.' Or rather, she thought he was making her unhappy. Turns out she just IS unhappy. He wasn't helping her to change that, and probably was exacerbating it, but she remains with her own issues (which are probably why she chose him) which are unresolved. Very sad. You mentioned relate and said you won't go again. Whatever you decide, I'd strongly urge therapy for yourself to understand your own drivers better.

Why did you choose him? Why did you marry him, despite the warning signs?

• agree staying for the children is a burden not a gift for them. I was relived when my parents finally split and it was more than a decade since id left home. My mum still peddles the 'well I would have left earlier but I couldn't because I had young children' line. I and my siblings know that is bullshit. As PP have said, she stayed because she wasn't ready to leave.
• I fully hear what you are saying about your husbands treatment of you. It is unacceptable, a poor example for your children (and thus poor parenting from both of you if you allow it to continue). Some of my dad's late day epiphany comes from watching me parent young children. As he is my dad, he identifies with my struggles (we are close) while also seeing my mum's path through my eyes. He has frankly told my DH he now realises his behaviour cost him his marriage.

having said that, I don't think this situation is impossible for your children to recover from. I have, and I have a decent relationship with both my parents now. Also a good marriage of my own. I have had LOTS of therapy though. Both me and my siblings called my dad out on his behaviour when teenagers. I clearly remember a blazing row where I told him as he'd not been around for most of my life (was always at work) so he had no right to start telling me what to do now.

• how did it come about that you would be a SAHP and he would work out of the home? Was that always the plan? Even if it was, are you happy with it? Do you think he is now (consciously or not)? Lots is written on these boards about men (still) not understanding and taking responsibility for the work of parenting. All true. However, I think being the sole earner for a household is also a burden. Maybe this is part of the reason for his stress about work? Perhaps he feels the pressure? Maybe he hate his job and feels trapped, because he feels as a household you need a certain level of income. Why didn't you go back to work? Would you consider it now (whether you leave or stay)? What difference, both financial or physcological might that make? My DH earns more than me, but our relationship is much better balanced because I earn well too. Relieves the pressure on him, also frees me to call him on his stuff. Eg he had a long held hanker for a different career (feels his parents pushed him down the wrong path, with good reason they are v controlling), but felt it was too late. I pointed out that it was far from too late, and laid out various ways we could restructure our lives to make his retraining possible, with me supporting the family. After discussion He decided it wasn't for him. So on the surface nothing has changed. But in practice he has examined his wish, realised it was a redundant dream, and owned his current choice. So he isn't at work seething that if it went for me and the kids he'd be a doctor after all.

If I were you I'd:

1. See the lawyer and understand your options.
2. Find a really good therapist.
3. Consider going back to work.

Then I'd sit down my DH and tell him I was unhappy and going to change my life to become happy, which may be with or without him. You could pitch this more or less strongly (trail separation or opportunity to reset). You need to clarify what you want from the period (eg him to move out). FWIW he probably should. You both need to experience it and he needs to see how high the stakes are. Give yourself a timeline to do your things (especially the therapy) and then make a decision.

Good luck

"He cannot deal with stress and get incredibly uptight. Which is odd, considering he has a highly stressful job. But if the slightest thing goes wrong, he will have a tantrum. Will cancel plans, refuse to do what we'd agreed. Over very small things e.g. He didn't wear a suit jacket to a christening, when he saw all the other men were wearing suit jackets, he stormed off outside the church, leaving me alone with bewildered friends and our children."

^^ this. My ex would have sulks and tantrums if we were out at an event he didn't want to be at and then blame it on stress. eg if a friend of mine had organised a party. I remember a big work social event (at the Greenwich posh place). Black tie but ex turned up late from work in a suit, hadn't shaved, hadn't cleaned teeth. Looked a mess. He stood out. I am now 5 years out of that abusive marriage and he is still trying to control me and take everything. Watch him being "a good father" - it is about taking your children from you and making sure that he can tell a court and everyone else what a great dad he is. Be careful you are a SAHM but after a very short marriage. The court is unlikely to award you spousal maintenance so I would get back to work asap. Sorry, I don't think this will end well.

I'm in a similar situation, but too exhausted to post properly. I will come back to this thread as there are so many helpful insights. Some of them I'm going to write down for
my clarity of mind. About to embark on couples therapy but will be our 3rd round and not sure if DH is willing to take responsibility for his behaviour. Might have to call it a day but I'm not ready to give up yet. Thanks to all the posters who have contributed and best of luck with your plans op.