Difference in income, financially reckless DH

[NewUsernameForTheDay]

Hi there,

I've NC'd for this, for obv. reasons.

I know a lot of people will say 'you're married, you should share everything' but I'm just not comfortable with that.

I earn more than DH (£90K vs. £40K). I have more savings that DH (£80K vs. £2K).

Our bank accounts are separate.

Each month we pay our monthly budget 50/50 into my account, this is where all the standing orders/direct debits etc. come from.

Each week I pay him an agreed weekly budget (same weekly budget as I have).

The background is that when we met he had LOADS of debt, including payday loans, and regularly received letters threatening to take him to court. So when we moved in together and later got married I needed to take a protective stance by managing our joint incomes. He tells me that he's happy with the situation and feels more in control of his finances than ever before.

Until 2013 I used to pay 2/3 to his 1/3 for our rent and bills - this was reflective of our salary difference at the time. Then I lost my job and had no income at all for six months, which is when we started splitting 50/50.

Even just writing this, I am aware we should go back to a proportional split for rent and bills - that'd be fairer.

However - I'd love to know how you guys manage when one of you earns more than the other (and has more savings), especially if one of you is pretty bad with money.

Thanks!

Minnie your right the savings are joint money - OP if you split with your DH he would be entitled to 50% because your married. As others have pointed out you are controlling. I suspect if this scenario was the other way around the OP would be told this is financial abuse...

What big purchases? Would he be making these big purchases if he wasn't married to you?

When one of you has a smaller income I think you need to understand if you want them to live to your standard of living you will be sharing. I won't say subsidising because that's not fair or correct.

I wish I could understand why you feel so uncomfortable about this - it sounds like trust problems but then you say you trust him so I dunno ...

Good luck working this out OP.

sianihedgehog I didn't want to use the term 'wilfully useless with money' but DH is a bit like that - he just likes new things, limited edition records, random gigs, £24 bottles of rare beer... nothing horrendous, but he'll happily fritter cash. Which is fine if he has his own bag of cash to fritter.

Smellysaurus it's a very valid point that it's important to him (and me) for him to contribute - for instance, I might may for the accommodation when we go away, but he'll pay for the flights, yes the accommodation is more expensive, but we couldn't have even got there without the flights.

springwaters

If you divorce he will get half of your savings anyway this is covered by a pre-nup - so no. It is part of the terms of my business, I am a 50% shareholder in a company, my business partner and I each have pre-nups to protect each other in case of divorce. The pre-nup includes both the business assets and personal savings (in case they should require to be used by the partner to protect the business).

I think 'emotionally abusive' is pretty far from the truth. We have an balanced and happy relationship - we're just aware of each other's foibles (and his is that he is terrible with money, but we have a home, child and I have a business to protect).

Regarding Christmas gifts - we set a budget for gifts (equal for both of us), he leads that discussion as I know he's the one with spending restrictions... he spends less overall on Christmas as I have a larger family. We buy individually for our own parents and siblings, and together for our nieces and nephews.

Regarding the school shoe example: surely we'd know that a pair of Startrite/Clarkes shoes is X-amount and whoever went to buy them, would just buy them?

willberry he could save about £450 per month - so it's more that he chooses not to - he likes buying stuff, and I like saving (this is pure self protection, I've been in the situation where I've had nothing in the bank and I've promised myself I'd never let that happen again).

peggy that's interesting... do you have savings and can he access them? I agree about day-to-day shit, I am not bothered about the minutiae either, and I'd rather we both had a nice life that squabbled over cash (for instance, if we want a sofa, he has £300 to contribute, I have £2K I'd rather get a sofa we both want, than find one where we each pay half).

Cabrinha it was a hell of a debt...shocking really. Most of it had expired by the time we met - but we worked together on a plan to pay the last £15K or so. I AM in control yes, but as he puts it, he felt like he was incapable/spiralling out of control financially for the decade before we met - so he likes not having to avoid debt collection agencies, not to have to pay back payday loans at 2000% interest... not to have to get a new payday loan to cover last month's payday loan every month. It's not straight-forward, but it has worked. I can only imagine how fucking miserable it must've been always having debt at the back of his month, always worrying about it - so I imagine it does feel better for someone else to take control, and fix it, my question really is... now that it's fixed -- what's next? How do we make it more balanced without taking a massive risk?

Security is vital. I think pooling everything can be very simplistic.

I have a much higher income than DP but my outgoing are also huge. If I shared all that with him he definitely wouldn't thank me.

We both have 2 kids as well so it's much more complicated in other ways too.

I think you've chosen a good route. Keeping your savings security is vital. If he suddenly had access to your savings he might well do something stupid as he has in the past.

I really don't like the use of the word "expired" for debt.
It did not expire.
He got very lucky that the owners of the debt weren't on the ball with keeping the necessary demands up to stop it from becoming statute barred.
It didn't expire - it contributed to the higher interest rates he pays on other debts, to cover the risk of people running up debts and defaulting!

It's not your debt, so I don't mean to lecture you, and it may just be a careless use of the word.

My point is that if he sees it as "expired" too, then I really doubt that he has adjusted his spending habits deep down. It's why paying off debts for other people often doesn't work. It's why I suspect that without you there he'd slide back into the mismanagement. Which is why whatever solution for splitting finance you come up with, I wouldn't be letting him loose with a portion of the money I earned, until I was sure (maybe from smaller amounts first) that his attitude was different and he could manage his own spending.

Minniemagoo and peggyundercrackers I dispute that it's financial abuse.

For me that'd be me taking his money off him, not giving him access to the same standard of living that I have, not giving him visibility on what we have. In short me trying to control HIM regarding money.

This is not the case. He has more cash now than he ever had before. When we met he had £60K debt and no savings. He now has £0 debt and £2K savings. I posted to understand how other people manage these types of situations once the debt is clear and the savings are set-up - what next..?

foodiefil stuff like: deposits, holiday, furniture - he'd probably still be buying those things in one way or another if we weren't married. I trust his intentions, fully. He is a good man, he is also a massive optimist 'Oh I'll buy this now and pay it back into my savings next month'...or...'oh I'll extend my overdraft to cover this thing, and then pay it back'... the difficulty has been that he hasn't paid himself back in the past, he's just haemorrhaged money.

Wallywobbles thank you for understanding, that's kinda where I'm at. Our first child is due in September, I have worked very hard to build some security for him (the child) - I've saved like billy-oh so as to suck up the risk of having my own business (which is always risky). I don't want to risk those savings in any way.

Cabrinha 'I really don't like the use of the word "expired" for debt.' me neither! However at the point of meeting me, a vast majority of his creditors were no longer chasing him, and the debt no longer exists on his credit report. It's not how I would have liked to have done it, of course. 'Expire' is the legal term, I believe.

...and THIS > 'I really doubt that he has adjusted his spending habits deep down' is EXACTLY how I feel and is why I'm so nervous about giving him full access to our family stability. I'm happy with him saving his own cash, I'm happy splitting our outgoings in line with our income, I'm happy having a joint savings account which we both pay proportionally into - I'm not happy with giving him access to everything because I do not know for sure that we won't start leaking a grand here, and grand there until it's gone.

In fact, I note that you say he could save but prefers not to.

I'm a big fan of the MSE website, and I know this is anecdotal but something I see on there a lot is that the "reformed" spenders who were indebt, become savers. That he still won't save tells me that he has a very different attitude to you about money - and possibly the same attitude he has always had.

An ex of mine was like that - easy come easy go. In your XH's case, the easy come was the luck of statute barring and then the luck if you stepping in to fix it all. It may have been his money that paid off the unbarred debt, but it was your drive, and your subsidising outgoings for a time that made it happen.

I'm not saying you can't be happy with him, you obviously are. But I am saying you shouldn't think he has changed when making your decisions - because he might not have done.

It's like this...
If you have £80K savings and him £2K, when he has £20 at the end of the month and wants a game costing £50, he might wait til he gets paid again. Because he doesn't "feel" wealthy.
Convert that to you both having £82K, and even though he doesn't spend that £82K, he may make bad lower amount decisions. Oh what the hell, £30 O/D, but only for a week, we can afford that.

My other point may not be popular, but I had an unintentional divorce! You don't actually just split it 50/50. You negotiate. I would prefer to be in a position of clearly showing that I had saved.

I may sound mean. I'm not. My lower earning fiancé will move in with me, not contribute (it won't cost me more) and he'll put his earnings from renting his house out into his pension. I don't care - I love him.

I'm not against sharing... I just think you need to keep your eyes open that he may not have changed his habits.

You obviously don't see the money as joint money. You have £80K savings so you don't have any money problems as such. So what is the actual problem. Is it that if you have joint money you are afraid he will run up a debt again or spend all your cash. If this was the other way round everybody would be calling financial abuse.

God, no, don't share everything with him! He knows what he's like - I doubt he'd say that was reasonable, would he?

I'd say put a % into a general account (and keep an eye on it) and put more than he does into an account for furniture/holidays etc, but again, I wouldn't want him to be able to easily access that.

I'd expect him to save something per month if he's on £40K with no debt and with someone contributing so much towards expenditure.

Cabrinha you have encapsulated everything I was trying to say - my fear is that he's only 'reformed' due to careful budgeting. And that if that structure was removed he could easily swing straight back into spending money all over the shop (no pun...).

I adore him, he is great fun, he treats me well, he is kind and we have a lovely life together - he is not in any way 'bad' he has just never had that moment when we go 'shit, I need to pull myself together'...we all have our weak spots (I am hugely un-practical, I can't swim, or ride a bike) he is shit with money (largely because of his lovely optimistic outlook)... optimism and saving do not go hand-in-hand!

In fairly certain a pre-nup isn't legally binding in the U.K...

My DH earns approx twice as much as me. We don't keep track of anything. Anything left at the end of the month from either of us goes irk joint savings.

ImperialBlether - I think I came to a sensible solution about a billion posts ago (monthly budget as a % of our income, shared saving as a % of our income and then personal savings for the overflow (I'd love to think that money ever 'overflows')).

Pottering as per the Law Society 2014 they are legally binding after legal expenses, the imminent financial needs of the couple and the children (i.e. I couldn't leave him homeless and destitute, which is fair). But nuptial laws do change regularly, however my solicitor advises that it's best to have a contract in place to show intention. And at the point of marriage, it was DH's intention not to try to claim either the business or the savings.

You sound very thoughtful about it New and that's probably what can make it work. Thinking from a personal point of view we are currently spending a large amount of money on a new kitchen, and we have planned and chosen it together, despite the fact I have not contributed in cash terms. As you make good decisions together you might be fine with that, but I would worry that you might resent funding such purchases and resentment can really chip away at a relationship.

Having said all this about our arrangement, it works because we have similar attitudes to and habits with money. If I was inclined to spending, I'm sure DH would feel different. We are both savers. So I do see where you're coming from.

Maybe with big purchases it's better to agree a joint budget and contribute proportionally before choosing, than to feel after that one has had to pay more to get what you both wanted... I dunno.

In my marriage everything was pooled and we both had full access. However in your situation there is no way I would do so and I think you need to continue to protect yourself and your future child. What you are doing is not abusive - either financially or emotionally, as evidenced by the fact that your DH is happy with the arrangement.

I would point out, however, that working towards him having more to do with the admin of the finances in the longer term would be sensible. For two reasons:
1/ It's actually quite time consuming, especially as you get older and become parents and the amount of admin becomes larger. I spend a half day a fortnight on mine, and am only just staying on top of it.
2/ If (God forbid) anything happens to you suddenly, especially once the two of you are parents, it is a nightmare at an already awful time if he doesn't know where everything is and have easy access.

Doesn't sound as if there is much trust between you. You seem very worried he'll run off with all your money. Sounds awful.

Thanks celtic I do appreciate that we look at it differently, but that we can acknowledge that although different, neither of us is wrong - it's just different strokes for different folks. I think the approach of having a joint savings account into which we pay a (%) proportion of our salaries is a good way forward for things like kitchens and cars...once it's in the account it's 50/50 ours, it doesn't really matter who puts in what.

I didn't use to be a saver, which is why I'm so cautious now - at one point I had literally nothing in the bank, and a graduate loan, and my rent was due that week - I've learned to enjoy saving, because it's the only financial protection I have.

Somerville he is happy with it, thank you for agreeing that I'm not being a total ass - his attitude to money is lackadaisical - in that he literally doesn't care if I manage it all, or if I took every penny into savings and gave him 'pocket money' - he has a hands-off approach to it, which is how he ended up £60K in the red. I hope people can see that I'm not sitting here shrouded in silks and sipping Champagne while he darns his socks - we are equals, we just structure our team-spending, so as neither of us ends up in a horrible mess.

Vivienne.. oh dear - I don't think he'll run off with anything, I just think he may slowly and carelessly fritter it away, always well-meaning, always thinking he's doing a nice thing, but the security slowly ebbing away.

Sorry, OP, I typed it and forgot to send it, then pressed Send and realised everyone else had said the same thing!

ImperialBlether oh I wasn't being facetious! I realise I've written heaps of SUPER LONG posts, most of which are actually quite dull (and/or me trying to convince people I'm not a complete ass). :)

Potteringalong I think you're right in saying that pre-nups aren't legally binding in the UK.

I feel slightly resentful that big purchases (anything over £500) fall to me

As you've now noted, this means you (as a couple) aren't budgeting properly. You're doing the usual, which is budgeting for the monthly, mostly fixed, expenses, and not considering less frequent and less predictable spending. People who use the YNAB software will know I'm referring to the concept of understanding your true expenses. This is a great time to be getting more hands-on with budgeting so you can more easily adapt to your changing circumstances.

Your savings are interesting as mentioned in the pre-nup. Does that mean you can't spend them because they are there as a float for the company in case of need? Or just that you don't want to spend them for that reason?

I've only scanned the thread so may have missed bits. I earn quite a bit more than my partner. We both pay in 50% but this is on the understanding that I save excess income within my business (above his spends) to allow me to pay myself a wage later. Also we are lucky that it leaves us both with plenty to spend and build personal savings from.our monthly spends. We've agreed when I.start studying and drop to my reserve low wage we will pool as paying percentages with a large safe fap isn't fair and leaves the lower earner much poorer. We also don't pool income from previous investments as we view them as personal savings rather than joint income. (Again very lucky to have these and not need the income day to day.)
Joint savings £500 a month are part of our monthly budget and totally joint money, joint decision how its spent.
We also did 50/50 parental leave and try to be very equal in how we do things day to day.

peggy that's interesting... do you have savings and can he access them?

Yes we have about 8 times our joint salary in the bank - we don't share accounts but he has a card for my account he can use if he wants to, Its not my money, it's our families money, if he wants to spend it he can, he's an adult and can decide what he spends our money on - I'm not his keeper but as I say I'm not precious about money - it's there to enjoy and make life better

I'm with the other poster who said they are pretty sure a pre-nup in the uk wouldn't stand up in court, they get thrown out all the time.

The OP's not getting divorced - she loves her husband and he loves her. This focus on the pre-nup isn't that helpful.

I can only tell you what we do, although I understand your uneasiness about pooling everything.

We pool everything. One checking account, one savings. Separate retirement accounts (from work). DH earns $500k, I earn $75k. When we first got together we were earning roughly the same and we have each supported the other through short-term periods of unemployment. DH had some "silly" debt when we got together - like yours, just general living above his means rather than any fundamental problems with gambling or the like.

In our house it's very much family money. It sounds incredibly complicated, all this calculating percentages and transferring money accordingly. Unlike your husband, I'd be unhappy if DH wanted to keep some back for himself (DH started his own company a few years ago, hence the massive upswing in his salary. I work FT but also take care of virtually all our domestic responsibilities.)

No advice as such, but just to give you the perspective of the lower earner.

tribpot that YANB link is very interesting, I'll bookmark that to read on my way home. thank you. You're right about the budgeting for predictable month-on-month expenses vs. budgeting for ad hoc purchases (which are frequent, but not regular). That's what the, as-yet imaginary, joint savings account will be for.

Regarding the pre-nup - I am aware that are certainly not bullet proof - but all I can do is to try to make sensible decisions and contract-up as much as I can (both with personal assets and work assets) - as I've mentioned, the difficulty with owning a business is that nothing is ever predictable or stable (this is true across the work-market, just less visibly so for people who are employed by a company). My best hope with the pre-nup is to show that at the point of marriage it was intended that certain assets would not form part of any divorce proceedings. We don't plan to divorce, but I'm sure no one does on their wedding day.

So there are a few named assets which remain mine unless otherwise bequeathed (via my Will or change to the agreement). It's a couple of possessions (with family history) and two bank accounts. tribpot the bank account(s) are not tied to the business (as a float), however our Shareholder Agreement outlines emergency protocol should the company require personal loans from either/both of the shareholders, so I feel it is my responsibility to be able to contribute to those emergency proceedings should it be required.

So the savings are primarily for our family's stability which may include periods of sickness, not working for whatever reason, but also includes having the capital to support the business should I need to (by offering the flexibility for me to be paid late, less, or not at all for a period). Equally those savings are to provide comfort - whether that's a holiday, or a new car, or a new sofa...

Peggy he has his own card for your account as a named person? So basically a joint account..? Unless I'm misunderstanding (and he's actually using your debit card). I do envy people with more of a laissez faire view with money (I must admit I don't see it as something to 'enjoy' per se. More something to worry about :) ), I'm just scared of being stuck and having no way to support myself or my family.